2017 NBA Offseason thread

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by rudel.dietrich

This could be true as well. But if James leaves then Cleveland will be left in a state of dreadful. They have no young talent and almost no draft picks.
They have mortgaged everything for the last three years.

It may be a combination of reasons.
Or maybe he just wants to experience something besides Cleveland.

I have been reading a lot about Durant the last 3 months and some of his decision was that he simply wanted to experience something outside of Oklahoma.
And I am just not talking about the city. A different front office, different environment, different teammates, different coaching.

And he seems to be really enjoying the bay area. I think we tend to view athletes and not human beings.
Very few of us hold jobs from age 19 until our mid to late 30s.
We want new experiences, new challenges, new friends, better pay and also experience boredom and burnout that stem from doing one thing for too long.
Athletes are the same way.

I believe Durant because that is what he said all along. For Kyrie, I believe it is simply about not wanting his career to be living in LeBron's shadow. Kyrie, right or wrong, believes he isn't meant to be a sidekick. He believes he is in LeBron's, Harden's, W'brook's class. A guy who can have the whole team centered around his will. He wants more than what he has now.

Think about it. Barkley, Durant, David West, Drexler, Garnett, Kidd, all chased that ring and were willing to move here & there to get it late in their career. Kyrie got his at 24. He's got as many as 7 more years @ the top level to build his own legacy w/o having to worry about "but he never won a ring". If being his own legend w/o living in King James shadow is what he wants most, then I applaud his move.

If reports are correct, then I don't think it is about getting out before LBJ leaves Clev high & dry. I think he wants to be Mark Messier. Yeah, Gretzky will always be "The Great One", but Mark became a legend in his own right, more than a sidekick. I personally don't think he can do it. But I give him credit for having that confidence he can & is willing to be bold to accomplish it.

[kenyan_cheena]

The Nets are doing a decent job of turning around the train wreck of the last few seasons. They will be my 2nd fav team next season.

[kenyan_cheena]

Wherever Kyrie goes, he'll probably request to wear #1 instead of #2.

[rudel.dietrich]

Cleveland now has a GM. I cannot believe I am worried about a team that has been to three straight finals.
Koby Altman has a large task ahead of him. And working under Dan Gilbert would make me worry and look over my shoulder every day.

[rudel.dietrich]

Celtics and Cavs about to change the face of the NBA landscape.
I will have to wait and see what the exact deal is. If it is one of the Brooklyn picks then LeBron will be in LA next year.

[TonyJ]

Crowder, Thomas, and a Brooklyn unprotected. The Celtics just got robbed.

[TGH-Adfabre]

I am reading Thomas and Nets pick for Irving.

[rudel.dietrich]

I read by Woj
Thomas, Crowder, Zizic and the 2018 Brooklyn 1st

I will need some time to process this and see who won or lost. A lot depends on where the Brooklyn pick ends up. And if LeBron is our the door then Cleveland will rebuild anyways and no way they pay Thomas the supermax.

It may take until next offseason to see how this trade truely effects both teams. If Brooklyn is actually somewhat decent and that pick ends up at say 10th, and Thomas is gone next July then Cleveland won't have gotten very much.

[TonyJ]

I think Thomas is a better player than Kyrie straight up. Crowder is a very good multi-purpose wing who helps them against GS. That's not even considering the pick.

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally Posted by TonyJ

I think Thomas is a better player than Kyrie straight up. Crowder is a very good multi-purpose wing who helps them against GS. That's not even considering the pick.

I was going to disagree with you but I could not find any advanced metrics that had Irving as a better regular season player. He was better in the playoffs and is about three years younger and is on a longer deal.
But Thomas was a better player least season.

But I am not prepared to say the Cavs got the better deal or the Celtics got fleeced.
It will take until next offseason to tell that.

If LeBron leaves I don't see them paying Thomas max money (why would they?) and if that Brooklyn pick ends up in the later part of the lottery then it will not be as valuable as it does now.
And the East has gotten significantly worse and while Brooklyn is by no means good they did get better. They could surprise and win 32-36 games and that pick could fall in the 9-12 range.

Or LeBron could surprise and stay and they sign Thomas to a supermax and that pick falls into the top 3 and they have a great player for 4 years on a rookie level deal.
If that happens then they do in fact win this trade.

[rudel.dietrich]

This also has me looking at LeBron in the same light as Chris Paul. A player who makes everyone else around them better but over the course of time grinds their spirits down by simply not being very fun to play with.

[TonyJ]

Originally Posted by rudel.dietrich

I was going to disagree with you but I could not find any advanced metrics that had Irving as a better regular season player. He was better in the playoffs and is about three years younger and is on a longer deal.
But Thomas was a better player least season.

But I am not prepared to say the Cavs got the better deal or the Celtics got fleeced.
It will take until next offseason to tell that.

If LeBron leaves I don't see them paying Thomas max money (why would they?) and if that Brooklyn pick ends up in the later part of the lottery then it will not be as valuable as it does now.
And the East has gotten significantly worse and while Brooklyn is by no means good they did get better. They could surprise and win 32-36 games and that pick could fall in the 9-12 range.

Or LeBron could surprise and stay and they sign Thomas to a supermax and that pick falls into the top 3 and they have a great player for 4 years on a rookie level deal.
If that happens then they do in fact win this trade.

You didn't say a single thing about Crowder who is a very, very good player.

[TonyJ]

Originally Posted by rudel.dietrich

This also has me looking at LeBron in the same light as Chris Paul. A player who makes everyone else around them better but over the course of time grinds their spirits down by simply not being very fun to play with.

I can think of a bunch of differences between the two but at a minimum we can start with three titles to zero.

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally Posted by TonyJ

You didn't say a single thing about Crowder who is a very, very good player.

Your right and I should have, he is a very good player and on a fantastic contract. But if LeBron and Thomas leave and that pick turns out to be a mid lottery pick then if he is the best piece for Irving then....not a great trade.

And to be honest I don't see anyone stopping the Warriors this upcoming season besides injury. They brought everyone back and from an outsiders prospective they look happy playing together.

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally Posted by TonyJ

I can think of a bunch of differences between the two but at a minimum we can start with three titles to zero.

I mean in terms of personality. Teammates in New Orleans and Los Angeles by the end of his time in those places ended up hating Chris Paul because of his constant barking, complaining to the officials, yelling in practice and creating factions in the locker room.

By all accounts James is the same way. But he wins so not as much gets said.

In terms of style of play and career accomplishments I was not trying to compare them at all.

[TonyJ]

Originally Posted by rudel.dietrich

Your right and I should have, he is a very good player and on a fantastic contract. But if LeBron and Thomas leave and that pick turns out to be a mid lottery pick then if he is the best piece for Irving then....not a great trade.

I don't disagree with any of that, but Irving demanded to be traded which left them no leverage whatsoever heading in to what everybody knows could well be LeBron's last season with the team. Just Irving for Thomas and Crowder is an upgrade in the short term and I would say a big one. Whether or not LeBron stays, they at least shot their shot and the Brooklyn pick is a nice hedge if he leaves. At the very least, it's a very nice return given the circumstances.

And to be honest I don't see anyone stopping the Warriors this upcoming season besides injury. They brought everyone back and from an outsiders prospective they look happy playing together.

You're probably right, but if you're Cleveland what are you going to do, give up? This deal improves the team in the short term and I'm surprised they were able to do that given that Kyrie blew up their leverage.

[TonyJ]

Originally Posted by rudel.dietrich

I mean in terms of personality. Teammates in New Orleans and Los Angeles by the end of his time in those places ended up hating Chris Paul because of his constant barking, complaining to the officials, yelling in practice and creating factions in the locker room.

By all accounts James is the same way. But he wins so not as much gets said.

In terms of style of play and career accomplishments I was not trying to compare them at all.

But he wins championships. Beyond that who cares? Both Kobe and Michael Jordan were both famous assholes while by all accounts LeBron is a good dude, if calculating. But nobody cares because they both won. The bottom line is the bottom line.

[Cobra Mgr]

I think it was a good deal for both. First, let's consider Cleveland had no choice but to let Kyrie go. Yeah, they could have kept but him, but...really....they had to trade him. That takes away your leverage in negotiations. Next, consider that Cleveland is an old team about to lose the guy that makes them tick for nothing. This might have been the most the Cavs could expect to get. And IT doesn't mind taking over the scoring in the 4th, which is what LeBron needs down the stretch. So they are still formidable in the lEast.

Boston gets a great established talent who will for the first time get genuine coaching. So there is potential for even more growth. He is fragile, but is not coming off a hip injury. He is under contract for a longer period of time. He'll have a superstar talent to play with in Heyward who by all accounts, isn't comfortable being the face of the franchise. And Boston got a chance to change the dynamic of their biggest obstacle in the lEast. Losing the pick wouldn't upset me in the least. This is why Danny picked up all of these assets. To make moves like this.

[TonyJ]

The problem with Kyrie is that his reputation far outstrips how good he actually is. Fans basically just accept that he's a star and to be strictly fair he's an unreal scorer. I'm not sure how many point guards in NBA history have the ability he does to score at the rim and he can be a knock down three point shooter to boot.

On the other hand, he's an absolutely atrocious defensive player and is a point guard in only a nominal sense. He doesn't do anything at all to make his teammates better and that's a huge problem. IT is also awful on defense and is a score first PG but he's also a better distributor and, I'd argue, a better scorer. At least in the short term I think he's a clear upgrade on Kyrie and that's not even considering Crowder.

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by TonyJ

The problem with Kyrie is that his reputation far outstrips how good he actually is. Fans basically just accept that he's a star and to be strictly fair he's an unreal scorer. I'm not sure how many point guards in NBA history have the ability he does to score at the rim and he can be a knock down three point shooter to boot.

On the other hand, he's an absolutely atrocious defensive player and is a point guard in only a nominal sense. He doesn't do anything at all to make his teammates better and that's a huge problem. IT is also awful on defense and is a score first PG but he's also a better distributor and, I'd argue, a better scorer. At least in the short term I think he's a clear upgrade on Kyrie and that's not even considering Crowder.

I agree on most of those points. But like I said, now Irving is going to get coaching. Not babysat. Keep in mind Kyrie is only 25. There is lots of room & time to grow. IT is 28. I think he has reached his ceiling. 5'9" can only do so much in the NBA.

If Kyrie wants to take it to the next level, he needs to buy in to Stevens 100%. He can become a better all around team player. If he is all about being Kobe, who is admittedly in his ear, then he's going to end up a disappointment. He needs to mix his talent & add IT's work ethic.