PbP comparisons between OOTP and DMB

[Cork55]

Since this was mentioned in the sound thread, I thought I would do a few comparisons between the two games since I have both. I ran a few games using DMB version 9c and OOTP build 27. What I did was to try and snag some basic plays in both games to allow others to see how the PbP stacks up.

Here are a few PbP snippets for your viewing. DMB plays will be in blue text and OOTP in green text. All plays were done using the games 1 pitch mode.

Ground Ball to 3b

Riles behind now at 1-2
Tapani fires
bouncer to Pagliarulo
and Riles is gone
just like that

Moving into the batters box, Mason...
he's 1 for 2 with a triple...
From the windup...
the 2-1 from Chamberlain...
swung on...
two hopper...
to the left side towards third...
reeled in by Vasquez...
strong throw to first...
in time to get Mason--one down

Routine Fly out

1-1
Delucia offers
lifted in the air to Buhner in right
and Jay puts it away for the first out

Gonzalez stands in...
so far he's 2 for 4 today...
Vance fires...
swung on...
lifted to right center...
Mason wanders over...
calling for it...
and makes the catch...

Double Play

3-1
Welch deals
Swung on and ripped to the left side
Riles has it on one hop
he throws to second for one
to McGwire at first
double play!
Hrbek is out by a half step
for out number three

Digging in next is Chafe...
Chafe waits for the 2-2 pitch...
Chavez comes set...
checks on Ruiz...
kicks and deals...
swung on...
here's a hard ground ball...
up the middle...
Bunch pulls it in...
to second to get Ruiz...
Garcia with the quick play to first...
taking care of Chafe! Double play!

Ground ball to 1b

here's the pitch
on the ground over first
Hrbek has it coming in
tags first
and Henderson is retired

OOTP long play version
Garcia digs in at the plate...
he is hitless in 2 at bats so far...
Chavez fires it in...
a swing by Garcia...
chips it slowly on the ground...
toward first...
coming in, McMorris scoops it up...
he goes to the bag himself...
and Garcia is out...
The top of the 8th is over...
No runs, no hits, no errors...
Nobody left on...
The score is still 6-4 in favor of the Tropicos...

OOTP short play version
Campos with the windup...
kicks and fires...
Garcia swings...
ground ball...
toward first...
gloved by Chafe...
he takes it to the bag himself...
and Garcia is retired--two down...

Strike Out looking

0-2
the pitch
it's in there below the belt
and Tapani strikes him out

OOTP long play version
McLead from the stretch...
the 2-2 pitch...
strike three called!
Jackson will have a seat!
He walks off to the dugout muttering to himself!
That's his first k today...

OOTP short play version
Garcia is next...
the pitch to Garcia...
Strike three called...
Garcia goes down on a two seamer knee high on the inside corner!

What stands out to me are as follows:

1. DMB had little to no pre-play info where as OOTP delivers a wide range of pre-play info.

2. DMB is considerably less wordy and more direct at times where as OOTP plays can drag on at times especially before the pitch is thrown.

3. OOTP has more overall play detail than DMB.

4. DMB has a bit more flavor text, but OOTP is closing the gap.

After looking at 3 games worth of PbP tonight for each game, I have to back track a bit and say that if DMB is the PbP champ, then OOTP is the serious challenger to the throne. In many areas OOTP clearly surpasses the DMB PbP and if/when Markus opens up the hard coded text and adds in some missing conditions, then the sky will be the limit for the OOTP PbP.

In conclusion I would give DMB an 8.5 out of 10 and OOTP an 8 out of 10. Tysok and Pstrickert deserve some serious praise for their hard work on the PbP during the beta testing.

-Cork55

[Eugene Church]

Thanks for your assessment.

That is great to hear that OOTP9 is running pretty close to DMB. In reading various threads, I had been given the impression that DMB was much better.

Agree with you. tysok and pstrickert have done a splendid job on the PBP. They have worked endless hours on it. They really are dedicated Beta Team members.

[The Wolf]

I have both games. IMO DMB has a significant edge. My ratings would be more like 9.5 for DMB and 8 for OOTP.

[DaddyO]

Agreed that the edge continues to DMB.

The DMB snippets you included above are not what I would consider a good sampling. If they were, I would agree that OOTP has closed the gap. But you seem to have only included the least interesting pBp from DMB and the more colorful from OOTP.

I'm not saying it was intentional, but it is misleading.

[Simmo13]

Originally Posted by DaddyO

Agreed that the edge continues to DMB.

The DMB snippets you included above are not what I would consider a good sampling. If they were, I would agree that OOTP has closed the gap. But you seem to have only included the least interesting pBp from DMB and the more colorful from OOTP.

I'm not saying it was intentional, but it is misleading.

DaddyO, perhaps you could "snag some basic plays from both games" to give an idea of how you felt that Cork's were misleading. Actually I'm quite prepared to believe that the DMB play-by-play is better but I also think that Markus, Tysok and Co. are working hard to improve the OOTP version and I applaud them for that.

[Broth32]

I still miss the "color" PBP that OOTP used to have. Example: Joe Smith comes in batting .333 vs lefties, or John Doe is 2-1 with a 2.77 ERA in the month of June.

I miss miss miss this in the PBP

[Cork55]

Originally Posted by DaddyO

Agreed that the edge continues to DMB.

The DMB snippets you included above are not what I would consider a good sampling. If they were, I would agree that OOTP has closed the gap. But you seem to have only included the least interesting pBp from DMB and the more colorful from OOTP.

I'm not saying it was intentional, but it is misleading.

My intent was to try and post basic type plays to allow for a more direct comparison. Otherwise this would fall into an apples vs. oranges comparison.

-Cork55

[Cork55]

Originally Posted by Broth32

I still miss the "color" PBP that OOTP used to have. Example: Joe Smith comes in batting .333 vs lefties, or John Doe is 2-1 with a 2.77 ERA in the month of June.

I miss miss miss this in the PBP

If Markus would actually devote some real time to the PbP he could probably add these types of things to the OOTP very easily. I have faith that he will eventually come around with regard to the PbP.

-Cork55

[Mariner and Giants Fan]

DMB also has baseball park specific pbp, like a double off the green monster (at Fenway) etc. Does OOTP have that at all?

[Broth32]

Originally Posted by Cork55

If Markus would actually devote some real time to the PbP he could probably add these types of things to the OOTP very easily. I have faith that he will eventually come around with regard to the PbP.

-Cork55

I just don't understand why it was in earlier versions of the series but was taken out

[tysok]

Originally Posted by Mariner and Giants Fan

DMB also has baseball park specific pbp, like a double off the green monster (at Fenway) etc. Does OOTP have that at all?

As I understand it, DMB is a replay of MLB. So they could have ballpark specifics easily since they know all about the ballpark already. OOTP can be entirely fictional, or historical in a fictional park... there's no way to know if there will be a green monster in Fenway in your universe or not.
Definitely something that could be done, but the basics aren't even there yet.

Originally Posted by Broth32

I just don't understand why it was in earlier versions of the series but was taken out

Probably the switch to xml pbp? I don't know, but we originally started (2006 and the beginning of 2007) with very basic conditions and possibilities. As it continues we can try to get these other things in... but trying to do it all at once would have been a pain.
It's probably the same thing as the hard coded text, which is probably in there to make sure nothing gets screwed up too badly. It takes a lot of work and a lot of care to make sure things come up correctly. For instance, in 2006 there were lines for chasing after a flyball that said "charging in" but not conditioned... it could have, and did, appear for a flyball to deep right field that went over the guys head. It's good to have, but needs conditioned correctly. Obviously in the initial attempt the need is to get objects in... if you stop to make sure conditions are in place right then you get a very bland pbp initially. In 2007 we fixed a lot of that... for v9 we worked on the "great plays"... things are conditioned and appears everything works very well now.

It's all a process, and since none of us get paid it's a long process. Next year I don't see any work we can really do with what's there already. If the pbp is to get better things need to get added so we can go further. Hopefully these are the types of things that get added.

[Cork55]

Well said Tysok. I hope Markus adds some additional items so we can have some additional PbP work for the next beta test.

-Cork55

[pstrickert]

The problem is that Markus still continues to refine other parts of the game -- many features of which he has already dedicated ample time to. Meanwhile, he all but ignores the news stories and PbP. I've said it before (and I suppose I'll say it again): I know that some areas of the game need more time and attention. I accept that. But I cannot understand the complete disregard of the PbP. It may not deserve AS MUCH time as other areas of the game; but surely it deserves SOME attention.

[MorseMoose]

Originally Posted by pstrickert

The problem is that Markus still continues to refine other parts of the game -- many features of which he has already dedicated ample time to. Meanwhile, he all but ignores the news stories and PbP. I've said it before (and I suppose I'll say it again): I know that some areas of the game need more time and attention. I accept that. But I cannot understand the complete disregard of the PbP. It may not deserve AS MUCH time as other areas of the game; but surely it deserves SOME attention.

Sound is much more important, obviously.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by pstrickert

The problem is that Markus still continues to refine other parts of the game -- many features of which he has already dedicated ample time to. Meanwhile, he all but ignores the news stories and PbP. I've said it before (and I suppose I'll say it again): I know that some areas of the game need more time and attention. I accept that. But I cannot understand the complete disregard of the PbP. It may not deserve AS MUCH time as other areas of the game; but surely it deserves SOME attention.

I agree.

For a long time now I've had trouble playing out my games. The immersion factor just wasn't there. Through playing my games out I got to know my players and the players around the league. Yet I still found myself simming a month at a time and not getting really into my leagues.

I finally put my finger on it. It was the pbp. The pbp now is better than in 6.5 and probably better than DMB as far as actual play description (except for park-specific stuff, which I never thought even possible with OOTP due to all the customization). But where it's not grabbing me is where all the extra info used to go before everyone's initial at-bats in v6 and 6.5.

The pbp should be one of the top priorities when it comes to text sims, IMO.

[Eugene Church]

Originally Posted by Russ

I agree.

For a long time now I've had trouble playing out my games. The immersion factor just wasn't there. Through playing my games out I got to know my players and the players around the league. Yet I still found myself simming a month at a time and not getting really into my leagues.

I finally put my finger on it. It was the pbp. The pbp now is better than in 6.5 and probably better than DMB as far as actual play description (except for park-specific stuff, which I never thought even possible with OOTP due to all the customization). But where it's not grabbing me is where all the extra info used to go before everyone's initial at-bats in v6 and 6.5.

The pbp should be one of the top priorities when it comes to text sims, IMO.

Good observations.

OOTPB seems to favor the simmers over the gamers who play out games.
The last poll I saw showed that simmers compose 60% of the gamers and about 40% play out games.

IMO Markus doesn't spend enough time on the PBP, which as you say, should be one of his top priorities in a TEXT game.

I have been on the last three Betas and PBP is the last thing addressed. It might be because that is necessary for the coding, but I sense that it not that important to Markus. Otherwise we would have had all of the basic plays of baseball a long time ago. It is now OOTP9 and we are still missing basic, everyday plays.

WHY?

[bbastyr]

This is cribbed from a post by boba44 from the DMB forums --

It's not the basic plays that make DMB pbp special. It's this stuff --


"This one makes Vin Scully's voice ring in my mind..................
------------------------------------------------
now Paul Blair, in the 2 spot
a two run shot the last time up
Perranoski looks in
here's the 3-1 offering
a little low
Blair leans on it
but does not go around
drawing the base on balls
Perranoski doesn't like the call
he's screaming at the home plate umpire
now Roseboro gets into it
but the ump just stares them down
as Perranoski takes the ball from Roseboro
slams it into his mitt
and stalks back to the mound


and from the next game in the series.....
-------------------------
and now Lou Johnson steps in
bounced out to Powell last time
a dreaded beach ball is in the left-field corner
and we'll have time out until it's recovered

ok, we're ready to go again......


and finally from an O's-Indians game..............
---------------------------------------
....two balls, 2 strikes on Buford
a one-bounce SHOT back to Garcia
who tries to KICK it to first base
and he's right on goal!
Garcia kicked the ball
--in the AIR--
right to a very surprised
--and laughing very hard--
Wertz
who stepped on the bag for the out!"
----------------------------------

[pstrickert]

Russ: The mesmerizing power of good PbP is demonstrated by the fact that many people still play DMB for one reason, and one reason only: the PbP.

EC: Markus' track record wrt PbP makes me hesitate to take his promises to improve the PbP seriously.

bbastyr: The DMB PbP, as you've indicated, has a playful quality to it. If we tried to incorporate this type of PbP in OOTP, we might not be able to keep these objects from showing up too often. (But I'll let tysok speak to that!)

[Ambermonk]

Originally Posted by tysok

OOTP can be entirely fictional, or historical in a fictional park... there's no way to know if there will be a green monster in Fenway in your universe or not.
Definitely something that could be done, but the basics aren't even there yet.

It's all a process, and since none of us get paid it's a long process. Next year I don't see any work we can really do with what's there already. If the pbp is to get better things need to get added so we can go further. Hopefully these are the types of things that get added.

What about code that analyzes wall dimensions & height?

Originally Posted by pstrickert

The problem is that Markus still continues to refine other parts of the game -- many features of which he has already dedicated ample time to. Meanwhile, he all but ignores the news stories and PbP. I've said it before (and I suppose I'll say it again): I know that some areas of the game need more time and attention. I accept that. But I cannot understand the complete disregard of the PbP. It may not deserve AS MUCH time as other areas of the game; but surely it deserves SOME attention.

I've said before that PBP, done correctly, will be the major improvement in a new version of OOTP. I'm hoping that the delay is because, when he does it, he will do it right (and he's perfectly capable of doing that). He has stated that he watches about 3 game per week on TV. Maybe he should "ramp up" to 4 or more per week in preparation.

Originally Posted by MorseMoose

Sound is much more important, obviously.

Of course.

Originally Posted by bbastyr

It's not the basic plays that make DMB pbp special. It's this stuff --

and finally from an O's-Indians game..............
---------------------------------------
....two balls, 2 strikes on Buford
a one-bounce SHOT back to Garcia
who tries to KICK it to first base
and he's right on goal!
Garcia kicked the ball
--in the AIR--
right to a very surprised
--and laughing very hard--
Wertz
who stepped on the bag for the out!"
----------------------------------

Great examples. I hope Markus does what he said and buys a copy of DMB - and, after digesting what is there, applies his considerable talents to doing it right as the major improvement of a new release!

[dzanr]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

I have both games. IMO DMB has a significant edge. My ratings would be more like 9.5 for DMB and 8 for OOTP.

I also agree. OOTP definitely has some aspects that are better than DMB. But the PBP is not one of them.

In truth, DMB and OOTP are fundamentally different. They come at the baseball text sim from two different angles, two different approaches. I think it more accurate to say that DMB would belong in one group with SOM and ActionPC, while OOTP would be in a different group with PureSim and (as I understand it) Base Mogul.

DZ