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Old 03-08-2013, 09:16 PM   #1
Empach
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A couple rating questions

I've been playing the Beta and there's a couple questions that I'd like to ask.

1. How do you think the star ratings translate to player abilities? Using the NHL would it be something like this:

5 = Star
4 = First Liner / Top Pair D / Number 1 Goalie
3 = Second and Third Liners / Second Pair D / Solid Backup
2 = Four Liners / Third Pair D / Backup / Minors
1 = Minors

Something like that maybe?


2. Are the Potential ratings always accurate and final? By that I mean if I have a prospect, for example let's say Yakupov, and I look and he has a 4 Star potential, what does that mean?

-Will he have that potential every game I play? Or does it vary like EHM's random potentials?

-Within a single game is that rating always accurate. If I have a poor scout could he give me an inaccurate read on a prospect, over or under rating him?

-Within a single game does a player's potential ever change? Essentially will we ever have late bloomers?

These questions could apply to current Ability as well.


I've been very curious about these details since I started playing.
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Old 03-08-2013, 10:08 PM   #2
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I'd probably say that your right with 3+ but change:

2: OHL/AHL
1: Junior
0: minors


OOTP people will probably be able to explain the stars better but I bet what you see is only as good as your scouting. A bad scout might have rated Crosby a 3/3 where as a great scout 3/5...

Good question and I hope there is a good reply...
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Old 03-08-2013, 10:45 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Empach View Post
I've been playing the Beta and there's a couple questions that I'd like to ask.

1. How do you think the star ratings translate to player abilities? Using the NHL would it be something like this:

5 = Star
4 = First Liner / Top Pair D / Number 1 Goalie
3 = Second and Third Liners / Second Pair D / Solid Backup
2 = Four Liners / Third Pair D / Backup / Minors
1 = Minors

Something like that maybe?
Yeah, in very general terms that's pretty much it. (Edit: I should add that's how it should be - I don't think the game is doing a great job of accurately assigning those stars right now.)

Quote:
2. Are the Potential ratings always accurate and final? By that I mean if I have a prospect, for example let's say Yakupov, and I look and he has a 4 Star potential, what does that mean?

-Will he have that potential every game I play? Or does it vary like EHM's random potentials?
Every game; after a long time working with those random potentials, I came to the conclusion that they cause too many problems. So the FHM potentials are fixed...to start with. I don't think Malte's implemented it yet, but potentials will be subject to semi-random changes. I think that'll do a much better job of modeling the way player development actually works.

Quote:
-Within a single game is that rating always accurate. If I have a poor scout could he give me an inaccurate read on a prospect, over or under rating him?
Yes, that's exactly the way scouting works - a poor scout, or one operating outside of his usual region (which aren't set in the database yet) will get more inaccurate results.

Quote:
Within a single game does a player's potential ever change? Essentially will we ever have late bloomers?
Yup, see the answer about random potentials above.

Quote:
These questions could apply to current Ability as well.
I should probably point out another difference between EHM and FHM here: there's no all-encompassing "current ability" number. There are separate groups of attributes (physical/defensive/mental/offensive for skaters, goalie/mental for goaltenders) that each have a total rating. That makes it a little easier to model players like the minor league star that never makes it in the NHL, and to rate different types of league with more accuracy. The KHL and AHL can have similar levels of goaltending, but at the same time the offensive skills of KHL's top-end scorers can be noticeably higher.

The whole system can be difficult for a researcher to grasp at first (and the way I've set up the research guidelines doesn't make it much easier), and it's definitely going to need some fine-tuning, but we're starting to see some good end results already. Once the game's stable enough to get a lot of people playing long-term games, I'm looking forward to getting feedback about where it needs work.

Last edited by JeffR; 03-08-2013 at 10:46 PM.
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Old 03-08-2013, 10:57 PM   #4
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That all sounds great Jeff. Everything you said is pretty much what I was hoping for.
When I first read you say that there were no random potential I was concerned (I think going into every game and knowing that player x will always have a certain potential makes things too easy) but hearing you talk about how your development model will work sounds like an even better alternative.
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Old 03-09-2013, 12:10 AM   #5
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I should add that's how it should be - I don't think the game is doing a great job of accurately assigning those stars right now.
I would agree and further that by saying that what the AI sees and what we see might not be the same. I had a player that looked meh (2.5/2.5) but was getting offers everyday from other clubs even when buddy wasn't on the TL...I couldn't figure-out why as both the rating and performance was meh...

If you want the name I can dig for it...
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Old 03-09-2013, 10:02 AM   #6
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Ratings are league specific though, right?

I played a game in the NHL and had mostly 3-4 star players. But then I started an OHL game and had 3 or 4 5 star guys. But these were 5 star in the OHL, right?

This is why I would rather see a 0-100 scale in which every player in the database is on the same scale. Otherwise, I need to know what a 5 star in the OHL equates to in the NHL.
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Old 03-09-2013, 10:25 AM   #7
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Thanks for the question and info. I also have a number of questions on the attribute rating system and how they translate into player/team performance. I realize that it is early yet, and that further tinkering is on its way, but in random order here are some of them.

1. Do physical or mental attributes have any impact on the overall star rating for a player, or does that overall rating only incorporate offensive and defensive skill ratings? Obviously the physical and mental attributes should affect that player's performance, but it is not clear whether this is omitted from the star rating. I am not arguing necessarily that it should, since I don't mind doing a bit of digging for this info, but it would be good to know.

2. On a related question, are the physical. mental and other attributes factored into the individual offensive and defensive skill ratings? For example, does each player's hitting rating attempt to factor in a player's size, speed, strength and aggression ratings, or is this just a measure of that player's technical hitting skill. A small, weaker, mild player may have good technical hitting skill, its just that he is unlikely to use it and won't be effective if he does. In this case, does the hitting rating reflect those physical and mental factors, or does the program bring those features in separately?

3. It is not clear what certain ratings mean, particularly for players in different positions. For example, each defenceman is rated for face-offs, and I am not sure what this means for any player on the ice other the two players who are actually involved in taking the face-off draw. If it simply refers to a player's technical skill at winning a face-off draw, it really shouldn't be a factor in how a defenceman, for example, is rated in this skill (unlike for a centre, who may have to use this skill regularly). However, it remains part of the defensive ratings for each player and will affect how their star ratings are calculated (I assume). Can the ratings for each player be adjusted to discount the importance of certain ratings for certain positions? Other examples would include the "screening" skill, which may be important for forwards but is rarely used by defencemen (unless this can refer to their ability to prevent screening by opposition forwards), the "shot-blocking" skill (more important for defencemen I think) and the "getting open" skill (more important for forwards). I am curious as to whether the game incorporates an algorithim which adjusts the relative importance of these attributes in calulating the overall ratings (and in-game performance) for forwards and defencemen, or are all attributes given equal weight regardless of position.

3. I realize that some of the ratings have been artificially adjusted to reflect differences between forwards and defencemen, most notably the shooting range attribute, which is consistently higher (longer?) for defencemen than forwards. I am sure this is done to reflect the fact that most defencemen will score their goals from further out than forwards, but it isn't an elegant solution. For example, if we play that defenceman in a forward position, and adjust for him playing out of his main position, does he not still possess a significant shooting range advantage over every other forward in the league simply because he was rated so much artificially higher for this as a defenceman? Again, results are what matter, but I am trying to understand how this factors into the game.

I have other questions, but will stop here before I wander too far astray. Please don't take these comments as any sort of criticism. I think FHM has enormous potential and I am sure that we all welcome the chance to provide some input at this stage of the process.
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Old 03-09-2013, 11:21 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayze302 View Post
Ratings are league specific though, right?

I played a game in the NHL and had mostly 3-4 star players. But then I started an OHL game and had 3 or 4 5 star guys. But these were 5 star in the OHL, right?

This is why I would rather see a 0-100 scale in which every player in the database is on the same scale. Otherwise, I need to know what a 5 star in the OHL equates to in the NHL.
I don't think so. I'm playing in the NHL right now and my guys range from 2.5 to 4 stars. In the AHL in general, they are 1-2 stars wit the occasional 2.5 or 3 stars while the juniors bellow then are 0 or 1 or 1.5...so I'd say it's not relative but rather global...

That being said, If you scout an AHL player. the report is specific to the legue. "He could be a 2nd liner one day" is one I see some times when looking at AHL players but they might only have 2/2 stars. Scout the juniors and a 1 star player might be a "1st liner"

Not related but in a way the same...
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Old 03-09-2013, 11:50 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by OpusTheFowl View Post
I don't think so. I'm playing in the NHL right now and my guys range from 2.5 to 4 stars. In the AHL in general, they are 1-2 stars wit the occasional 2.5 or 3 stars while the juniors bellow then are 0 or 1 or 1.5...so I'd say it's not relative but rather global...

That being said, If you scout an AHL player. the report is specific to the legue. "He could be a 2nd liner one day" is one I see some times when looking at AHL players but they might only have 2/2 stars. Scout the juniors and a 1 star player might be a "1st liner"

Not related but in a way the same...
Perhaps the game adjusts depending on the league you are playing in then. For example, if I am playing as an NHL team all of the OHL players are under 2.5 stars. But If I am playing in the OHL then there are a good amount or 4 and 5 stars per team and all the NHL guys are 4 and 5.
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Old 03-09-2013, 12:41 PM   #10
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But If I am playing in the OHL then there are a good amount or 4 and 5 stars per team and all the NHL guys are 4 and 5.
Really! Odd in a way...maybe the stars are relative to where you are viewing them from but with limits. ie. playing in a low leve l in Europe and looking at Crosby should show you 5 stars...playing in the NHL should also show you 5 stars...

Interesting to see where this goes...but really stars are just a general indicator where as the actual values are what's important.
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Old 03-09-2013, 04:09 PM   #11
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Ya, I agree. I am looking forward to the alternate rating options once they get implemented. I always play with the 20-80 rating scales in OOTP.
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Old 03-22-2013, 12:56 PM   #12
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Thanks for all the great information in this thread regarding ratings.

I was wondering if the initial ratings that will be released with the finished product are intended to reflect a player's performance in his previous NHL season (2012-2013 - a known). Or, are the initial ratings an expectation of how a player's performance will be in the current NHL season (2013-2014 - an unknown)?
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