Great suggestion about status of new features and bugs

[sporr]

We should all take a step back. Markus has just signed on to SI recently. Let's give him a chance to get settled and fix these issues. Things won't happen instantly.

[Eckstein 4 Prez]

Originally posted by sixto
It's very simple, really. I could not. Could not. Could not. Could. Not. Care. Less. If Markus has to write specs on updates 25 hours a day in addition to a 12-hour workday for SI. Your infrastructure is not my concern. If between the lot of you, you can't write a simple newsletter, you have an organizational problem. Don't you think?

Stop taking it out on us. I've never seen a customer service rep berate a customer in public before. First time for everything.

Bingo.

I've yet to say word one about specific suggestions about running your business because, frankly, how you guys run your business is not my concern. By the same token, what's going on in your real lives is also not my concern.

I've said in one thread "I'm not happy with OOTP6." In several other threads I've noted bugs/problems with the game, with my (admittedly not very knowledgeable) suggestions on fixing them. Beyond that, I don't particularly care how things get done, as long as they get done.

By the same token, I don't want to hear a bunch of what I consider sob stories about why things aren't getting done. Part of the responsibility of putting out a game like this is making it stable and workable with the promised features.

Since the trend seems to be toward locking threads and silencing criticism, I won't be surprised if this post is deleted. I'm just sick of having everyone who's unhappy about the current state of the game being called unsympathethic to Markus' real world issues. You know what? I'm not unsympathetic. When one of my friends is stressed out, I do what I can to help. But when I go to the store and the checkout line is a mile long because the extra cashier is having some kind of personal crisis, I don't want to hear about it - I just want someone else to get their ass to the front and start checking people out.

[Henry]

Originally posted by sporr
We should all take a step back. Markus has just signed on to SI recently. Let's give him a chance to get settled and fix these issues. Things won't happen instantly.

Agreed. Too many of us are assuming a lot right now, and Markus himself is probably trying to figure out how this is all going to play out. Obviously V6 will be patched - but almost all of the new enhancements will have to wait until V7. That''s maybe frustrating, but certainly not unexpected given the changes currently underway.

If we can establish some kind of semi-regular status on some of the most major items, maybe that would ultimately make things better.

[gmo]

Well, nothing new under the sun... On one side people upset about nothing new being said about upcoming possible changes and expected features and fixes. On the other side people upset because nothing new is being said about upcoming possible changes and expected features and fixes. Oh yeah, one of those is raising the issues and the other is addressing the issues, that's the difference.

Nobody is unwelcome. But both sides get annoyed by the same postings or responses or lack of responses or whatever. Then when somebody posts angrily, it upsets the other side, which upsets the other side, which upsets the other side, etc, etc. What good does it do? Stepping back and taking a deep breath is a good idea. People are going to be upset and post rash things, but don't take it so personally if they are. It can be just releasing steam - it doesn't have to start spinning out of control with people saying they will leave or questioning people's motives for posting.

*deep breath* Well, I feel a little better.

[sixto]

Originally posted by holyroller
What is it that the OOTPD staff would like us to do? Keep quiet? Go away? Obviously, voicing our concerns is not welcome, at least judging from the reaction. Working in customer service myself, I understand it can be frustrating to deal with dissatisfied customers, but it comes with the territory and is part of your job. To be honest, the reaction to my reaction to the game is making me less likely to continue to support this game than any problems with the game itself.

I think we all may need to take a step back here (mods and customers), take some deep breaths, and realize that we all want the same thing. Theoreticaly, we are all on the same side, we want the best game possible. Pissing in each other's faces doesn't help a damned thing.

Nice post.

[Henry]

Unfortunately, one of the things I see happening here is each side is "drawing their line in the sand" and making it very difficult to even respond to a question without fear of being belittled.

Steve and I are simply trying to explain "why", yet the other side want's no part of it. It seems Steve and I are in a position of not being able to say ANYTHING unless it's what you want to hear.

Since we can't tell you what you want to hear (which I assume is everything will be fixed by next week or something similar) we can only read most of these comments and try to step in now and then to answer the simple questions.

I tried to explain above what I though will happen with V6 and V7 over the next year and a half. Obviously, it seems that's not sufficient.

Steve tried to explain that Markus' last 6 months has been tough, but it seems no one cares.

It appears to me, at least, that any attempt by us to try and barter a compromise is now difficult, if not impossible.

We will continue to provide you what we know, and assist anyone that has an issue that we can help with. Markus will continue to work on the V6 patch(s) and follow with the new release of V7 next Fall. Steve and I will try and find out what we can, and share that information as it becomes available - and I will continue to analyze the game to help define better procedures in playing it.

Other than that, I don't know what else to say.

[Ktulu]

Obviously V6 will be patched - but almost all of the new enhancements will have to wait until V7. That''s maybe frustrating, but certainly not unexpected given the changes currently underway.

Thats certainly unexpected to me based on the information available at the time of pre-orders and the continual references of H2H being in the first big update.

[Eugene Church]

Markus, Steve and Henry:

A monthly report or a quarterly report, as Henry, adventureran and several others have suggested, would seem to me and many other patient, reasonable customers a simple way to solve this communication problem.

All Markus has to do is keep a list of the features he wants, we want and a list of the bugs that need to be worked out and publish the lists monthly or quarterly. I don't see how this would take very long to do.

Surely he already has a list of things that he is working on. It would seem to be a simple thing to add his comments about the features and the bugs and publish it.

I think a lot of us would like to know if OOTPD plans to do a Monthly or Quarterly Report and would appreciate an answer.

Yes, we will...or no, we won't.
It is that simple. I hope you don't just ignore the requests for it.

We just want to know the status of the various features and bugs...if they will be included or fixed in the next version...if not, when do you think they will be included...and if they are not possible to program into the game, tell us that as well...I can accept the fact that I may not get my favorites in the game...I will still buy the game as long as it continues to improve...even without my favorites...I have bought 4, 5 and 6 and none of them have included my favorites.

If my favorites are on Markus' Monthly or Quarterly Reports, I will never mention them again...even if he says they never will be included. This Report would certainly cut down on multiple posts about the same things which bother all of us.

Please give us an answer. Will Markus give us a regular status report of the game and its direction?

[sixto]

I'm sorry that I'm about to write a long response. I want to try to be more constructive than perhaps I have.

Originally posted by Henry
Unfortunately, one of the things I see happening here is each side is "drawing their line in the sand" and making it very difficult to even respond to a question without fear of being belittled.

I think the fact that you feel this way is a perfect example of what has just been said - let's step away, let's gain some perspective. I know I have not drawn any lines in any sand - but perhaps you were not referring to me.

Steve and I are simply trying to explain "why", yet the other side want's no part of it. It seems Steve and I are in a position of not being able to say ANYTHING unless it's what you want to hear.

Again, and borrowing ria's favorite new phrase, I respectfully disagree. I think that most assuredly we do want to hear the whys and wherefores...

As opposed to "telling you how it is," may I ask a question? If you had written a message that said, "There will be no updates and no news for three months while Markus resituates," do you think you'd have had the ****storm you have now?

My question is very purposeful. As a purchaser of OOTP1, as a purchaser of OOTP4-6, as a person who has, and I don't make egotistical claims lightly, as a person who has made contributions to this community, as I feel I have - do you feel like treating me like any newbie off the street is appropriate? Because if you do, I'd like to know. If your answer is "Sixto, you just think too highly of yourself," well, that is an answer I'm interested in hearing.

Since we can't tell you what you want to hear (which I assume is everything will be fixed by next week or something similar) we can only read most of these comments and try to step in now and then to answer the simple questions.

No. On this point, you are decidedly incorrect. I don't want to have anything corrected by next week, Al. I feel like I am on record as suggesting that maybe OOTP6 is merely a precursor to a robust v7. If you told me, today, "Sorry, but there will be no more changes to v6 so that v7 can be all it can be," do you know what my response would be? No, you don't. For the record, my response would be, "Well that sucks, but thank you for telling me so I can plan the next 18 months."

How others would respond, I have no idea, but in my experience, the people who are worth worrying about always respect honest answers.

Steve tried to explain that Markus' last 6 months has been tough, but it seems no one cares.

I agree. I agree that we don't care. It's because it's been done in secret. It's because of the discontinuity in interaction. You guys have built up a fondness among your fanbase - was that your mistake? Because now we miss that give and take, since it's gone - so I suspect that it could have been handled differently, so that we might have cared.

I had a job once where I was absolutely, positively, blatantly incompetent. Just wasn't suited to the work. You know what? People felt bad for being upset with my poor work. You know why? Because I was so gosh darn nice about it.

A sorry here or there goes so damn far, you can't see it from here. We haven't gotten one. That, in my humble opinion, has been your one, and maybe only, mistake.

It appears to me, at least, that any attempt by us to try and barter a compromise is now difficult, if not impossible.

Well, it's funny you say that. It's up to OOTPD to make this statement true or false. Because...unless you think it's our fault that this is true, wouldn't the only other alternative be that it was yours? (Collectively.)

I wish you'd take a step back, actually talk to each other strategically, and say, "Geez, what can we do to patch this up? What do our users want? What have they said they want? Could they mean it, possibly?"

Steve and I will try and find out what we can, and share that information as it becomes available - and I will continue to analyze the game to help define better procedures in playing it.

Perhaps you and Steve need to give us, the forum frequenters, a primer on what exactly it is that you and Steve do for OOTPD. Because, and I'm hearing this from multiple corners now, is that the flow of information among the representatives of your company, is stunted, maybe stopped.

We very much appreciated attempts you used to make, and Steve too, to engage us - to talk to us about things that we could give input on, that could make the game better.

Al, you no longer do that. Steve, you no longer do that. We miss it. If you guys have communications blockages, if you can't give us info because you don't have it, do the right thing. Talk to your boss. Let him know that you are having trouble accomplishing your mission.

With that, I've said my thing. I have approximately 2,438,679 ideas about how to make OOTP the best damn game ever. But believe it or not, I actually do think about whether what I want, personally, is something anyone else would want. Not everyone wants what I want.

Is what I want worth harnessing? I honestly don't know. I wish I did. Sometimes I actually worry that by Clay Dreslough taking some of my suggestions for Baseball Mogul, that he killed the game. I feel guilty about that. I try to be careful about what I suggest. And in the end, I have to rely on you guys to know what is good and what is bad.

For me, what's missing, what's curbed my enthusiasm, is that I just have little idea whether I'm barking up the wrong tree. I used to feel like I did know. But that was 2002.

We complain out of passion. We complain because if we could program, we'd write the ultimate baseball simulation ourselves. But we can't program. We are VERY passionate about what we want and that could be a strength. How can we make sure it is? Please tell us.

Thanks,
joe

[Henry]

Originally posted by Ktulu
Thats certainly unexpected to me based on the information available at the time of pre-orders and the continual references of H2H being in the first big update.

I didn't mean H2H wouldn't be included in V6. This is what happens in this kind of "be careful what you say" environment.

[jbmagic]

here some toughts


remember when Markus had that poll if we wanted to wait for ootp6 and get h2h2 with it or we can get ootp now and get h2h seperate later on the next update..


if we had voted to wait, i think the game will be more buggy, because none of us customers will get a chance to play it and find whats wrong with it if we waited....and when the update does finally arrived, Markus probably wont have much time because he is with SI now and will be getting ready for ootp 7...

if they cant get it right now, can you imagine how ootp 6 will be if the poll went the other way....

i feel like the customers do a great job in finding bugs than the beta team.....if we had waited for ootp 6 and h2h to come together, first we will still be waiting and 2nd there will be bugs the customer have reported already still on ootp 6/h2h if it came together...Markus probably would not notice some of these bugs we found by us the customers...


Like what others have said, Markus should Make a list what he will fix on the next patch (slated for next week) be... This will give customers an idea what bugs was related in the forum or comunicated to Markus that will be fix....and also it will be nice if Markus post a list of bugs that wont be fix on the next patch and the reason why....this way customers will know if there bugs reports in the forum was read and confirm...

i think customers get frustrated because they feel like there post gets ignored...

i love ootp and just want it to be the best it can be.....

[Ktulu]

I didn't mean H2H wouldn't be included in V6. This is what happens in this kind of "be careful what you say" environment.

Actually I was referring to the reference of first update not H2H(a feature that means nothing to me personally) specifically. My understanding was that there would be updates. It was implied that Markus would be updating the game with new features after the game was released.

Based on ootp's past history I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that Markus would be spending a signifcant amount of time on updates atleast on par with ootp5(and perhaps more due to the arguable lack of new features for V6). Then game the SI business, which long term I believe will be good for the game, but short term it significantly hurts further development of ootp6. The fact that Markus has to basically work on V6 in his spare time is dissapointing to say the least. It just sort of feels like ootp6 was dumped on us and its wait till version 7. Thats just the feeling I get and it is definately not what I expected when I pre-ordered.

You said this is a "be careful what you say environment". Why cant ootp dev. take this advice? Were not asking for much here. Simply truthful information about what's going on.

[Henry]

I don't know how to make things any clearer. Everything I know, you know. I'm not keeping anything secret nor am I being untruthful.

[gmo]

What if Markus came out and said something like the bug/fix/feature/progress lists/reports we have been requesting will not be done because {insert reasons}? What if he said the way things are is the way things will be for the foreseeable future?

That may be construed as trying to just be annoying, but I am not. I know there are more issues than just this one raising ire right now, but this is certainly pressing as related, among other things, to many veterans feeling OOTP is less connected with them now. I'm just curious as to what is upsetting people how much. How big a deal is the feeling of not being heard by OOTP and that too little info is being provided to us, especially compared to the past? Is that enough to drive people off, or is some combination of that and/or the other issues like bugs, advertised features not in, features not working satisfactorily, uncertainty about the future with SI, etc? It just feels like to me these various issues are being smeared together and should be addressed separately more often than they are.

[Henry]

Therein lies part of the problem gmo,

No one has said V6 wouldn't be patched - in fact Markus has said it will, and he would do everything he could to make it right.

No one has said that H2H would not be included - in fact Markus has said it would be in the first big update.

No one has said that many of the suggestions and requests wouldn't eventually make it into the game - in fact V7 may get rid of some of the roadblocks that have caused certain items not to be included.

What HAS been said (by Markus) is that H2H got delayed because he hasn't had time, and the coefficient was too complex a problem to add to V5.

The only thing that HASN'T been said, is when all these things would happen - and I don't even think Markus knows that at this time.

I don't think Steve or I have ever not wanted the communities suggestions, but you put us in a corner when you want to know WHEN these things will be done - when we simply do not know.

[Night2000]

Originally posted by Steve Kuffrey
Never mind that REAL LIFE can actually get in the way:

-Markus moved
-At times was w/o internet access.
-Had to adjust to all of the changes
-Had to actually sleep, etc,

What burns my biscuits is the arrogance of some who post here giving their expert advice about everything under the sun and assuming it is gospel.

You know this is the second time I've seen this reference to *REAL LIFE*. Hello Does not Markus make his living full time from OOTP? This is his job and this *is* part of his *Real Life* As far as I know, this is also your full time job and part of your *real life*. Perhaps you mean that other parts of his *Real Life* got in the way. That's not nice what you are trying to say. You are trying to make it look like we all have no lives, and that's why we are so upset. That's nonsense and you know it.

The point is when money is involved, whether paying it, or collecting it. No excuses are acceptable. When you pay your mortgage, car payments, renting, or whatever. All they want is their money period. When each version of OOTP is available, we your customers pay you money. In good faith we trust that all features, and parts are working, and there as advertised. When we come across bugs, and features not working as advertised, we come to these boards. To let you know about it.

When certain features and bugs, are still missing or not working correctly, and we are already into the next version. Then we start to complain about it. When certain features and bugs, are still missing, or not working correctly, and we are already into 3 versions later then we get *Pissed off* about it. Which is where many of your loyal customers are at now. The main reason for this is not because we are spoiled. It's because many things from past versions have been pushed off. while new features are continuously being added, whether they are working correctly or not. Now past problems, and new are finally coming to a head.

Not sure what criteria you are using to make the above statements? You say that customers not satisfied comments are not wanted.....how so?

How so? a few posts later in this thread you make a comment that the problem is:

Originally posted by Steve Kuffrey
I guess my problem is we allow all types of issues and complaints to be posted here. We don't delete them, try to listen and incorporate things.........but suddenly I am the bad guy because_______________________________________?

Sure sounds to me that customers complaints, and comments are not wanted. Otherwise why would you make the above statement? You are also talking about deleting posts, and censoring people that have paid you for this game. That sure doesn't sound like a company that cares about their customers does it?

Is it because each and every instance of an issue is not acknowledged? Is it because at times if I don't have any NEW or DIFFERENT info from when I responded in the past about a certain topic I don't post? The fact that this board exists PERIOD means that we are looking for feedback and input. Common sense says that each and every post or topic cannot be acknowledged.
Plus in any type of business you are never going to please them all.

Well no you obviously can't answer every question or acknowledge every issue, at least the first time. That's why many of them are posted over, and over. Until either You, Henry, or Markus does acknowledge the issue or question. I thought that this was your job? I thought Henry and You take care of the boards, and probably other marketing aspects of OOTP. While Markus, and I believe even Andreas program the game. Also I'm sorry I forget the Graphic artists name that also works on OOTP.
Try to understand this. If each of us are good enough to take our money when the game is available. Then *Each* of us should be good enough to get an answer. One way or another, and not get brushed off, or ignored. Fair isn't it?

[Night2000]

Originally posted by Henry
Therein lies part of the problem gmo,

No one has said V6 wouldn't be patched - in fact Markus has said it will, and he would do everything he could to make it right.

No one has said that H2H would not be included - in fact Markus has said it would be in the first big update.

No one has said that many of the suggestions and requests wouldn't eventually make it into the game - in fact V7 may get rid of some of the roadblocks that have caused certain items not to be included.

What HAS been said (by Markus) is that H2H got delayed because he hasn't had time, and the coefficient was too complex a problem to add to V5.

The only thing that HASN'T been said, is when all these things would happen - and I don't even think Markus knows that at this time.

I don't think Steve or I have ever not wanted the communities suggestions, but you put us in a corner when you want to know WHEN these things will be done - when we simply do not know.

Well see this is also part of the problem. You state above that no one said that many of the suggestions and requests wouldn't eventually make it into the game. However on the other hand no one is saying if they will? See we are at a stand still. This is why since no one knows, not even Markus. Then it would be fair to the rest of us to keep us updated as the game is progressing on what will be added, fixed, or new. Hopefully not too much new. Since there are a lot of things right now that need to be addressed. Which could well take Markus the next year and a half to work out. Plus he said he would fix as much as possible in OOTP 6. His words not mine...

[Henry]

sixto (Joe) et al,

Rather than try and reply to all your points, I think it better to answer your question asking what I do for OOTPD.

I am not a paid employee of OOTPD. I do this strictly as a volunteer for nothing more than my love of the game.

I, therefore, do not know anything more than I have already told everyone about any part of the game. When a question is raised on the board, I try to find out the answer by either asking Markus, or doing my own testing and research (as time allows) to find an answer. In additon, and related to that, I have created / assisted in many add-ons to the game.

The answers and responses I give on the board are mine alone, based on my experience with the game - sometimes flavored by something Markus has shared with me.

When problems are uncovered, or suggestions are made on the board, I pass that information on to Markus and the Beta team for resolution. I am also a Beta tester.

I do not know what will be in the next patch - nor do I know what the grand plans are for Version 7 beyond what Markus has told the board in total. I will probably hear that detail at the same time you do - or maybe at best, a few weeks before through the Beta process.

As Community Manager of the board, I also have some moderator responsibilities. In that role, I try to keep the board organized and civil (which I obviously haven't done well recently - not for a lack of trying). Side note : I cannot ban anyone nor can I see IP addresses to determine aliases, etc.

That, in total, is my "job".

So, in the end, I am a customer just like you, trying my best to help those that ask questions, and find out what I can... organizing suggestions and ideas, and passing them on to Markus.... and hoping, like you, that some of my ideas get into the game as well.

[Night2000]

Originally posted by Henry
sixto (Joe) et al,

Rather than try and reply to all your points, I think it better to answer your question asking what I do for OOTPD.

I am not a paid employee of OOTPD. I do this strictly as a volunteer for nothing more than my love of the game.

<--------------------Snipped--------------------->

As Community Manager of the board, I also have some moderator responsibilities. In that role, I try to keep the board organized and civil (which I obviously haven't done well recently - not for a lack of trying). Side note : I cannot ban anyone nor can I see IP addresses to determine aliases, etc.

That, in total, is my "job".

So, in the end, I am a customer just like you, trying my best to help those that ask questions, and find out what I can... organizing suggestions and ideas, and passing them on to Markus.... and hoping, like you, that some of my ideas get into the game as well.

Well you know Henry I am shocked really! You should be paid for all the time you put into this. Seriously, I don't care how much you *Love OOTP* You spend a helluva lot of time here, answering peoples questions and helping out. Dare I say as much as Steve does. When I was a kid I would help my friends brother for nothing. Installing carpet cause I felt funny taking money. Cause they were my friends. Well Bull crap to that. You are providing a service for OOTP, and I'm really amazed you aren't paid for your effort.

[rbhollow63]

Originally posted by Steve Kuffrey

**Edited**

Plus in any type of business you are never going to please them all. [/B]

While the above statement is true, you should be able to please them at better than a 56% rate. Last time I checked, that grade is failure.