My letter to Markus & Co. Part II

[Riverdome]

I have great faith in OOTP and it's staff. I don't believe for a minute that they would leave a bug in the game if there were a way to fix it. Keeping that in mind we've been told M.H. is hard at work, what more can we ask?

[cshigh]

Originally posted by Henry
Does anyone remember the doomsayer's projections when OOTP3 hit the retail market under the name Season Ticket Baseball ? None of those projections came to pass.

Doomsayers will continue to lurk no matter what the situation is. 100% of the people cannot be satisfied 100% of the time. Some of the people that are satisfied see nothing wrong with the game, or it's future. Some that are not satisfied can do nothing more than make their complaints, and project certain doom. When in reality, the game will probably only get better and Markus will continue to make improvements.

[darkcloud4579]

The presumption made here that isn't with bigger companies is that someone cares. I mean, if you're going to roast people who make the games, put their time into and are truly concerned with what we think, you could realistically expect them to not spend too much time giving .02 about what you think.

That doesn't mean being constructively critical isn't a good thing. But on some level, it just seems belligerent to me to come here and be like "I'm pissed off. Look at me on my soapbox."


That and .25 cents will get you a cup of coffee, but little else.

[silvam14]

Malleus,

You've made some very interesting points in your letter and I was saddened to see the first one got to hell with all of the flaming. While I may not share the same sentiment as some people here regarding the future of OOTP as being bleak. I just think that Markus put a lot on his plate what with The new engine for OOTP and then this ITP project. I realize that I'm stating the obvious with my last sentence, but I just hope everyone realizes that it is not uncommon for someone who is as ambitious as Markus seems to be to put too much on his plate, or to try to please as many people as he can.


I guess the only intelligent suggestion I can try to make that I haven't read here yet is to try and expand his development team to help balance the work load. I'm assuming that by his joining SI, that this is part of the plan, but Henry mentioned that he is currently the only person coding. I think if Markus is serious about improving OOTP (and judging by his recent affiliation with SI, he is) and continuing the lifespan of ITP, then there needs to be a few more roosters in the henhouse, so to speak. What do you think?

Mike

[Skipaway]

Originally posted by Malleus Dei

1. ITP was a mistake, and never should have been even considered. In the business world, Rule One is NEVER LOSE YOUR FOCUS ON YOUR CORE BUSINESS. Your core business, OOTP, is noticeably worse off for ITP having been made. This is costing you customers and customer loyalty.

I don't know why people can't see that ITP is part of the core business. It's just a stripped down OOTP 5.5 with a silly little bar and a store. You can even recognize the rating system being the prototype of OOTP6. I don't really think ITP hurt OOTP6 that much.

It was a great idea that was not executed really well. If anyone tried to play the Konami Japanese baseball game series, you'd see how great ITP would be.

The dream OOTP would be a game that would allow you to simulate history, play as an owner, a GM, a coach, a player, or whatever else about baseball. ITP is at worst a wrong step in the right direction.

[joncon16]

Originally posted by Malleus Dei
Let me repeat this: I am worried as Hell about the future of OOTP. If you aren't, please for once in your life take it elsewhere.

That specifically includes all the personal crap, smart-ass remarks, and snide comments.

Seems like a hypocritical statement considering the source.

On a different note, I noticed a CD for Season Ticket Baseball in a Best Buy a few years back for only $10. Bought it, forgot about it, eventually fired up my laptop to give it a shot, and the rest is history....

[Skipaway]

Originally posted by Malleus Dei
Henry, is there any way we can get you to discuss the issues instead of dismissing them?

What did you expect? You are basically making demands, and I don't think Henry is in a place to answer that.

You are talking about how Markus should run things, and personally, I don't think there is anything we can do or should do if he wants to keep issues like that personal. We should learn to respect that.

Personally, I think the funny thing is, unlike most other merchandise, buyers don't really have lots of options in baseball simulation games. So simply walking away wouldn't achieve much. Whining might be pointless, but it still might work.

[Malleus Dei]

Skipaway, we have the following events to deal with:

1. ITP is developed during the time period that would otherwise have been spent developing OOTP6.

2. OOTP6 is late, and is the first OOTP version ever to be significantly late.

3. OOTP6 is buggier than previous versions; so much so that many people have reverted to playing OOTP5.

You have to ask yourself the question: is this simply a coincidence, or is there a causal relationship here?

Personally, I think that there's a causal relationship here.

[Henry]

With all respect Mal, the issues have been addressed....

1. ITP was a mistake.
Not our call, plain and simple. We can certainly say we think it was a mistake, but to expect Markus to agree and say he won't do it again is asking too much.

2. The board is screwed up beyond belief and doesn't work more often than it does work.
The board is moving to a new server... announced in Andreas post.

3. New features should not have been introduced during the OOTP6 beta testing period.
Again, not our call. New versions usually need to have new features or the product doesn't sell well. Markus needs to split his time between enhancements and fixes... way of life.

4. OOTP6 needs work.
No arguement, and every issue on this board is know to Markus. He will decide what get's fixed, and how, and when. That's why I say if anyone has something new, post it. If you have further info on a problem already posted, post that as well - but repeating the same complaint 20 times simply fills up the board and makes it even harder for us to find the new stuff.

5. Manual.
Being worked on by someone other than Markus - yet the manual changes as the game changes. Since parts of the game haven't been added yet, those would be missing if released now. SInce some of the options aren't working as planeed, those parts of the manual would be incorrect. Every attempt is being made to get the community a manual - but also to make it accurate so we don't have to go through the issue "that isn't what the manual says".

Bottom line: fix the message board (in progress), release a manual (as soon as is possible), and freeze further OOTP6 development until you have squashed all the new bugs, and, more importantly, ALL of the unaddressed long-term bugs (Markus' call, but probably not economically feasible.)

[Malleus Dei]

Thank you, Henry.

Can we get some feedback from Markus - even secondhand - on what he is going to do about the old, known, pre-OOTP6 bugs and about the addition of the features we have been asking for for several versions now?

[Skipaway]

Originally posted by Malleus Dei

You have to ask yourself the question: is this simply a coincidence, or is there a causal relationship here?

Personally, I think that there's a causal relationship here.

Of course there would be relationships, so what?

The point is you are speaking ONLY as a OOTP fan instead of a ITP fan or a fan for both games.

So what are you going to tell people who want Markus to stop coding OOTP6 updates and work on ITP patches first?

Who are you to decide that?

I think Markus can do that by himself just fine. It'd be his call if he wanted to please one ITP fan instead of 1000 OOTP fans. If he did not choose to satisfy you? Fine. If Markus went broke and OOTP is discontinued? Too bad.

I myself would just treat both OOTP and ITP as all the other games I play. I'd check if they are good first, then decide to buy or not. If not, I'd just find some other games to play instead of bitching some programer into writing the game my way.

[Steve Kuffrey]

Originally posted by Malleus Dei
Thank you, Henry.

Can we get some feedback from Markus - even secondhand - on what he is going to do about the old, known, pre-OOTP6 bugs and about the addition of the features we have been asking for for several versions now?

This is his call. Neither I or Henry can answer this and can only communicate this to him.

[Skipaway]

Originally posted by Steve Kuffrey
This is his call. Neither I or Henry can answer this and can only communicate this to him.

And Malleus Dei called himself a senior member of the board. He should have known how things work around here long ago.

[jbmagic]

steve,

why you deleted my post Title "Markus Heinsohn Please Respond" and this post you didnt...

i did not attack anyone in that post..Just pointed out customers since version 1 are getting frustrated with ootp 6, etc and we want an answer form the man himself....


please dont delete any posts, Let Markus responded to them thanks...

[Malleus Dei]

Originally posted by Skipaway
And Malleus Dei called himself a senior member of the board. He should have known how things work around here long ago.

How many times do I have to ask for the smart-ass and the snide comments to be taken elsewhere. Besides, I *am* the senior member.

Can we have a civilized discussion about a vital issue here, please?

[Malleus Dei]

Originally posted by Steve Kuffrey
This is his call. Neither I or Henry can answer this and can only communicate this to him.

Would you do so, please? There is a great deal of concern, both about these issues and also about the future of OOTP.

[Cardinal Rule]

We may or may not be at the crossroads of which you fear, Mal. I too have seen many beloved games die a horrible death because they chose the wrong path (FPS Football is my most painful experience). And really, maybe not the wrong 'corporate' path, or the wrong 'financial' path, but the wrong path for the core customer.

I would have to assume a game like OOTP is made to appeal to a core group of gamers who don't count graphically pleasing images or simple interfaces as their primary goal (note I said simple interfaces, not to be confused with effective interfaces). A group of gamers who care about statistical realism and features that represent the reality of which the game simulates. Any move away from this would be a move away from what has to date driven this product to it's current state.

I can't examine or comment on the success or lack of success that the OOTP franchise has experienced, nor can I understand what affect, if any, ITP has had. Nor can I comment on what any other external factors may have had in the development and patching of v6. I would guess that OOTP is a relatively mature product in that the customer base will not experience a 'leaps and bounds' growth. And that would lead me to believe that OOTPD was looking for other means to grow since OOTP, having reached a relative point of market saturation, will not give means for growth. At this point we can see OOTPD having taken three different paths that were intended to move in the growth pattern - the .400 merger/consolidation, the introduction of ITP, and the SI merger. None of these moves, at their face value, represent a shift from the strategy of development and support for OOTP. However all of them have had, are having, or will have an effect on the future development or support of OOTP.

What Mal has done here, and what I echo, is that we want to see OOTP move in the right direction. We want a product that continues to meet our desires, specifically a game that simulates reality as well as possible. We want a product released with relatively few bugs. And we want any bugs to be corrected promptly and efficiently. The list of features should continually be enhanced to move the game closer to a true simulation of reality. We want many options that allow us to play the game we individually want to play without interfering with a myriad of other ways to enjoy the game.

OOTP should be considered 'the franchise'. It should receive top support, top billing, and be first to get enhanced. I think it's the only way to keep the current customer base happy, and there isn't a huge untapped market for this game. I would hope the merger with SI will allow Markus and team to have the backing they need to focus on this game almost exclusively without worrying about how to grow in new markets. Everything I've seen from the SI team has been positive and points in this direction. That said, I would like to see results, quickly, on addressing the bugs in OOTP6 and getting the promised enhancements incorporated.

Finally, I am a huge fan of this game, and I believe it is great. But a great computer game is not the same as a great painting. You can admire a great painting but you likely would never expect it to get better. A great computer game can, and should, get better. I believe this game can continue to get better and I want my voice counted among those who urge the development team to make it so.

[IatricSB]

[Steve Kuffrey]

Originally posted by jbmagic
steve,

why you deleted my post Title "Markus Heinsohn Please Respond" and this post you didnt...

i did not attack anyone in that post..Just pointed out customers since version 1 are getting frustrated with ootp 6, etc and we want an answer form the man himself....


please dont delete any posts, Let Markus responded to them thanks...

Because Markus does not come here to read or respond to posts. He may glance here now and then, or one of us may direct him to a particular thread. His knowledge of issues comes from myself or one of the testers. Posting topics with his name thinking that it will get his attention is not a method that is used or that works. That is why I deleted it. This is what I explained to you last night via PM. If you are waiting for a personal answer then I wouldn't hold my breath

[silvam14]

Originally posted by Malleus Dei
How many times do I have to ask for the smart-ass and the snide comments to be taken elsewhere. Besides, I *am* the senior member.

Can we have a civilized discussion about a vital issue here, please?

Hey Mal,

I know you know these boards more than probably most people here, and I too could do without the smart-ass pot-shots taken, from people who disagree with your letter. From what I've read, for every post you write that exposes those said pot-shot posters, this thread, (and the previous thread) gets about 5 more people to jump on you all over again.

Let me just say that I am all for this thread containing intelligent discussion about the letter. The only analogy I can make is that if you hate pigeons for example, like I do, you can kick at them and scare them away all you want, but they will still come back if people feed them. Don't feed em, Mal.