My letter to Markus & Co. Part II

[Malleus Dei]

Since the original thread was turned into a flamewar by a troll, I thought I'd repost this for further *civilized* discussion of an important situation. Trolls stay away this time, please.

=============================

Markus & Company:

1. ITP was a mistake, and never should have been even considered. In the business world, Rule One is NEVER LOSE YOUR FOCUS ON YOUR CORE BUSINESS. Your core business, OOTP, is noticeably worse off for ITP having been made. This is costing you customers and customer loyalty.

2. The board is screwed up beyond belief and doesn't work more often than it does work. Someone is simply not doing his job; it's not that difficult to run a message board properly with all features on. Take care of this ASAP.

3. New features should not have been introduced during the OOTP6 beta testing period. As a long-time OOTP beta tester (who was gone when 6 was tested) I know just how hard it is to figure out if things are working right in a beta test. Adding new features into the mix while beta testing is active is not wise. New feature introduction should be frozen during beta testing; sure, you can develop them, but don't add them to the test version until the beta testing of the current version is completed and you have a rock-solid and stable version to add them to.

4. OOTP6 needs work. There are not only annoying new bugs but there are a whole lot of annoying and well-known unaddressed long-term bugs, and there are a lot of features that needed to be added around version 4 (dollar figures vanishing when financials are off, for example; there are lots of others). Instead of adding a new engine - and I like the new engine, don't get me wrong - OOTP6 should have been devoted to getting all the bugs squashed and all the long-requested game features added, and then OOTP 6.2 or OOTP7 should have been the version with the new engine.

5. I don't need a manual, or even think that one is important, but I'm at one end of the OOTP user bell curve and the newbies are at the other. Reading the cries here has forced me to reluctantly conclude that the game really does, indeed, need a manual, and needs one fairly quickly.

Bottom line: fix the message board, release a manual, and freeze further OOTP6 development until you have squashed all the new bugs, and, more importantly, ALL of the unaddressed long-term bugs (there's a list, make sure that you cross all of them off before going on), and then after that go back and add the features that we have been lobbying for and that have needed to be added to the game since version 4. Yes, futher game development is fun and great, but squashing bugs is much more important and much more necessary, and after that you need to add the features that we have been yelling about for years. THEN move on. I know, that sounds a lot like real work, but your choices are either to do that or have a lot of angry customers with long-term grievances on your hands. The latter is a terrible business practice; in business, your customers are your lifeblood. If they aren't happy, then you're doing things wrong - and right now, they aren't happy, which should tell you everything that you need to know.

Summary bottom line: you need to pay more attention to your customers. Less flash, less other products, more bug fixing, more focus.

On the postive side, OOTP overall is nothing less than brilliant, and your work over the years has been outstanding - but that doesn't change the bottom line one bit.

Sincerely,

The senior member of this board

[zzzzzzzzz]

zzzzzzzzz

[dpwoodford]

Malleus,

Whilst I agree with the general gist of your thread, a lot of it has limited applicability in the current climate.

One needs only look at EHM:FE (or NHL Hockey Manager or whatever it's called today) to see the direction that Sports Interactive will want to take OOTP. Markus will do some work on patches I am sure, but he will be on the SI payroll, and thus it is only fair to imagine he will have to devote a significant period of his time to working on his new product for them...

Perhaps what we need to do is ask that all these bugs be solved either in a patch or in OOTP7, and I'm sure Sports Interactive will aid that in happening -- as i have first hand experience of the ir testing program, and whilst it is maligned on the SI community boards, with a game as complex as CM no system can be foolproof, but I can tell you it finds a heck of a lot more bugs than a limited sample of the community here can... and of course will probably undergo a beta test at the publishing house too (assume Sega)..

Cheers,

DW

[chriskelly]

the think that I think is funny....You've got this intelligent, carefully worded letter that must have taken a great deal of time and thought. Then...you've got that quote under it! made me chuckle!

[Malleus Dei]

Darryl:

You are making me more worried, and not less worried; I got a clear mental image of OOTP headed straight for Hell when I read your post.

So Markus will be on their payroll, and they're going to want him to primarily work on his new product, and not to fully fix OOTP before we go on? Yow. Bad bad bad bad bad.

You have no idea how much that frightens me. I watched Earl Weaver, FPSB, and Tony LaRussa all die unecessary deaths thanks to some really stupid corporate decisions. It's deja vu all over again.

[darkhorse]

Originally posted by Malleus Dei
It's deja vu all over again.

ROFLMAO!!!

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...432#post734432

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...434#post734434

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...294#post736294

[dpwoodford]

Well the thing is that the way OOTP is currently coded is unlikely to merge completely into the way SI do things..

My experience with SI is only through observation of the testing process a while back, so I'm not qualified to comment on their development, merely offering my opinion, however an opinion I hope makes a reasonable educated guess...

Take EHM. Riz had this stand alone program, with it's own interface etc.. the beta demo was released recently, and it looks very much an SI product -- that process would have involved him coding from the ground up.

Now take OOTP6. Pick a random bug... I haven't followed the threads so can't comment exactly, but you mention the dollar figures bug in your post... That one may be a simple fix, but let's assume it was more complicated. Is it really worth Markus fixing the bug once in his 6.x code, and then having to rewrite the whole set of code from the ground up to fit in with the SI codebase? Seems to me you have a lot of replication of effort there, that'll slow down the release of OOTP7 even more.

See, I don't see it of a case of fully fixing then moving on.. more that it's going to have to be rewritten, so make sure you fix the bugs when you're rewriting the code...

I'm really not qualified to comment on the other games you mention (before my time I'm afraid -- suffice to say they weren't released / commonly available in the UK), but SI are still a relatively small company compared to most game developers, and I think EHM should reassure most that it can only be a good thing... I certainly haven't heard (m)any EHM players say it's a step back...

[PotatoPeeler]

Originally posted by darkhorse
ROFLMAO!!!

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...432#post734432

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...434#post734434

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...294#post736294

Good grief. I guess just because "Markus and Company" didn't reply to it, that means they didn't read it.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally posted by PotatoPeeler
Good grief. I guess just because "Markus and Company" didn't reply to it, that means they didn't read it.

Gee, I guess that you didn't read the opening header. The other thread was hijacked by a troll and ended up locked. IMO these issues are very important, so instead of attacking me or this thread:

LET'S DISCUSS THESE IMPORTANT ISSUES IN A CIVILIZED MANNER.

I am worried as hell about the future of OOTP. If you aren't, please for once in your life take it elsewhere.

[JWay]

That is just insane, Stop putting your money into games that have bugs in them. Remember its all about the money.

[dpwoodford]

I think that Markus and co are much safer in SI's hands than virtually any other company they could be with ;o)

[Malleus Dei]

Originally posted by dpwoodford
I think that Markus and co are much safer in SI's hands than virtually any other company they could be with

Perhaps. The question, is though: is that safe at all? I've seen too many bad, thoughtless, stupid, and short-term corporate decisions kill too many good and well-loved computer baseball games.

Darryl's post scared the Hell out of me.

[Chappy]

Originally posted by Malleus Dei
Darryl's post scared the Hell out of me.

Which one?

[darkhorse]

Originally posted by Malleus Dei
The other thread was hijacked by a troll and ended up locked.

That takes care of post #2. What circumstance invalidated the first posting of the letter?

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...432#post734432

[Ragin Cajun]

Malleus, I may have to actually agree with you for once. I was talking with a few friends this past weekend that have been involved in OOTP since v.2 or v.3 and have also beta'd the games over the years.

Their unanimous feeling was that OOTP6 is not at "fun" as previous versions, they are having a hard time "getting into the game" as in previous versions and they are extremely worried that there may be another (and this is their quote) "mass exodus of the long timers from the game" basically due to the new version.

I have seen some pretty drastic turnover in leagues that have switched to v.6, and with my league on the cusp of flipping over it is something I am starting to be concerned over.

I hope this doesn't turn out to be a bad move, and only time will tell that. One other thing that I haven't seen mentioned lately, when the "merger" was first announced there was a lot of flak over moving to the SI boards and we were told to hang tight that it would be some time. Now, less than a month later, the thread is up that the move is imminent. Hopefully, Markus does retain that individualism to keep OOTP going in the right direction. Again, only time will tell I guess.

[IatricSB]

Originally posted by Malleus Dei
Darryl's post scared the Hell out of me.

Careful or else you'll come across as a drama queen.

[Wildcat31]

As we know it. I personally too believe that this version of OOTP will cease to exist as we know it. I was thrown for a loop when the annoucement of joining SI was made. I've been a longtime user of OOTP and being one of the lucky ones I have yet to experience all the problems some of the others have had, but in my honest opinion this could very well be the end of a great game as we know it. Does anyone remember the last time this company joined forces with another one? What happened there? It only lasted a very short time.

As the old saying goes...Money talks, Bullsh*t walks

HT

[Henry]

Does anyone remember the doomsayer's projections when OOTP3 hit the retail market under the name Season Ticket Baseball ? None of those projections came to pass.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally posted by Henry
Does anyone remember the doomsayer's projections when OOTP3 hit the retail market under the name Season Ticket Baseball ? None of those projections came to pass.

Henry, is there any way we can get you to discuss the issues instead of dismissing them?

[Malleus Dei]

Let me repeat this: I am worried as Hell about the future of OOTP. If you aren't, please for once in your life take it elsewhere.

That specifically includes all the personal crap, smart-ass remarks, and snide comments.