100% CPU bug - Page 5

BasicGuy · 03-15-2002, 03:18 PM

ops forgot to mention Steve & Markus I'm ordering a Amd 2100XP so that commision check should be on the way

Brad

KWhit · 03-15-2002, 05:35 PM

[quote]Originally posted by BasicGuy:
I figured out the 100% cpu usage problem...

The OOTP Team Is Conspireing with AMD & Intel to shorten the life span of our cpu's.....Why you might say what would steve or markus have to gain?
Intel & Amd are giveing them 5% commisions on all cpu's ootp users buy.
<hr></blockquote>

How unbelievably ridiculous this statement is!! Conspiring with AMD and Intel? What are you talking about? Are you nuts?

Oh, wait... You were joking? Oh... Sorry...

JimboJones · 03-15-2002, 05:47 PM

[quote]Originally posted by BasicGuy:
Now people this Is not a bug....A bug is something that happens that wasnt suppose to. I have a feeling that however the game was coded is the reasoning behind this not a bug.

Brad<hr></blockquote>

A bug can be either a flaw in the code, or a flaw in the design. What probably happened was the game was designed a certain way (maybe as far back as OOTP 1), and the developer never realized the CPU was running at 100%, even when the game was sitting idle. As I stated before, unless you are running on a laptop and your fan starts running constantly, you would never even notice the CPU usage. This is one of the disadvantages of running a small company. The larger software developers do performance testing, which would have caught this type of thing.

The question is, what are they going to do about it now that its been reported? This may be one of those things thats either really easy to fix, or it may be the type of thing that requires major rework.

Here's another interesting question for the attorneys ou there. This is probably covered in the license agreement, but could the developers be held liable if their software causes my CPU to overheat and become damaged? I realized proving the game caused the damage would be difficult, but I've heard of lawsuits for stranger things than this.

[ March 15, 2002: Message edited by: JimboJones ]

wbonnell · 03-16-2002, 07:56 AM

Can we ever expect to receive official word on this?

BleacherBum · 03-16-2002, 09:42 AM

I wouldn't call this "official", but the e-mail exchange documented below is the best I've gotten out of 'em. Interpret it as you like. I figured some here would find this interesting.

My mail to OOTP support, March 12
Hello folks at OOTP. I just purchased OOTP4 about two hours ago), and am running into an issue that has me concerned. When I fire up OOTP, my processor runs consistently at 100% which is negatively impacting the performance of my other applications, and my computer in general. The forums confirmed that I'm not the first to run into this problem. It appears that I'm running into a processor bottleneck, specifically related to the OOTP program - see technical notes via forum posting by BleacherBum (link to here)

Unfortunately, my initial experience with the game has been focused on researching this problem, instead of actually firing up my first League. And now, I'm a little hesitant to dive into the game, because I don't want to get attached to a piece of software that exhibits these symptoms. Perhaps you are already aware of this issue, and are pursuing a resolution? If not, any feedback would be greatly appreciated, and would help me get more comfortable with my purchase decision.

I'll look forward to your reply, and to my first "opening day"...

Sincerely,
The BleacherBum

The prompt reply, later that day
Well, this is not a problem, but by design!
I run OOTP with other applications running as well, and there are no problems at all. Also, since it's a game you usually do not do any other stuff besides playing :=) At least that's the case with most users!

Cheers,
Markus

My response, as yet unanswered
Thanks for the quick response Markus. It confirms the impressive endorsements I've read about your attention to the product and the users. I have to admit the answer caught me by surprise. I still expected the reason to be an OS problem, or a conflict with some other software.

Is the game intentionally designed to grab and use all available processor resources to optimize performance? And if so, when the game is in an idle state, how is it able to effectively release those resources to other applications? Note that I am seeing a drag on my other applications when OOTP4 is running - that's what immediately tipped me off to the issue in the first place. I've also read that other users "don't see 100% CPU usage" - how is that possible if this is "by design"?

The Performance Monitor analysis that I ran with the MMC indicates there is a processor bottleneck created by the program. Are you claiming that this is nothing to worry about? I guess I'm not convinced that everything is OK. This is not a common symptom of Windows applications. When you run the game, do you see your CPU constantly maxed at 100%? What exactly is happening behind the scenes, and why is that OK?

Sorry if this comes off as nitpicking - perhaps I'm being overly cautious. In any event, if you do have some answers to these questions, I encourage you to post it in the Tech Support thread where currently 3 topics are building all on this particular issue.

Thanks again for your time.

[ March 16, 2002: Message edited by: BleacherBum ]

Yossarian · 03-16-2002, 10:15 AM

[quote]Originally posted by JimboJones:
Here's another interesting question for the attorneys ou there. This is probably covered in the license agreement, but could the developers be held liable if their software causes my CPU to overheat and become damaged? I realized proving the game caused the damage would be difficult, but I've heard of lawsuits for stranger things than this.<hr></blockquote>

Don't have to be an attorney to answer this. The answer is a fat "no". If your computer is damaged by software, you have a cooling problem, period. Besides, it would be impossible to prove that the software did it anyway.

dpwoodford · 03-16-2002, 10:38 AM

With regards to the guy who said that Major Production Houses would have caught it..

I don't think they come any bigger than Eidos, and every computer (5 now) I've played the latest version of Championship Manager on has exhibited the same problems.

Incidently, this may be incorrect if Sports Interactive do their own testing, but they're still a pretty large company.

I know a couple of the testers there, I might fire this off to them and see if they did pick it up in-house..

Darryl

JimboJones · 03-16-2002, 12:04 PM

Yossarian,

I don't believe I have a cooling problem. But OOTP is the only game or other software I have ever run that causes the cooling fan on my laptop to run almost the entire time the software is running. So far, I can only assume that the fan is adequately cooling the CPU. But what happens if over several months/years of playing OOTP, the fan motor wears out prematurely, causing the CPU to overheat?

Is that a cooling problem? I don't think so. Laptops are designed to run at cooler temps, so that the fan does not have to run constantly. This increases battery life. If the fan IS running constantly because of the software, its a software problem.

I agree you could never prove it was the software, but I don't think the above scenario is all that far fetched either.

[ March 16, 2002: Message edited by: JimboJones ]

Yossarian · 03-16-2002, 12:24 PM

Try this, I guarantee it will cause your fan to turn on. It's a great little program that serves as a stress test for your cpu and memory.

<a href="http://www.mersenne.org/freesoft.htm" target="_blank">Prime95</a>

Depending on your processor, motherboard, and BIOS, your system may shut down by itself once the temp reaches a critical level. I don't know as much about laptops as I do desktop systems but I believe most recent Intel systems support this.

Boyds Of Summer · 03-16-2002, 01:38 PM

Wow.Compared to the rest,I'm running an antiquated system of win95-200cpu-64mgs.If this game fries my up till now problem free system and I can't play Diamond Mind.I'll be way past pissed-off.

Boyd

theDutchman · 03-16-2002, 09:18 PM

[quote]With regards to the guy who said that Major Production Houses would have caught it..
I don't think they come any bigger than Eidos, and every computer (5 now) I've played the latest version of Championship Manager on has exhibited the same problems.<hr></blockquote>

Production companies don't check for bugs from a developer. Eidos probably doesn't even understand any of the code in CM. (Check EA Sports and Front Office Football 2001/2002 for details)

[quote]Incidently, this may be incorrect if Sports Interactive do their own testing, but they're still a pretty large company.<hr></blockquote>

Now that is possible, but is Sports Interactive Marc Vaughn OR a producer for Marc Vaughn?

dpwoodford · 03-16-2002, 10:17 PM

Sports Interactive is the programming company.. Marc is the lead programmer, not the only one

To Quote:

[quote]

Sports Interactive is the company responsible for
developing the Championship Manager brand for Eidos Interactive. Founded in 1994 by Paul and Oliver Collyer, Sports Interactive is headquartered in Islington, London and is supported by hundreds of researchers around the world.

Current Company Employees

Oliver Collyer (Co-Chairman)
Paul Collyer (Co-Chairman)
Miles Jacobson (Managing Director)
Keith Flannery (Software Engineer)
Svein Kvernoey (Software Engineer)
Marc Vaughan (Head of Development)
Grant Appleyard (Software Engineer)
Paul Norman (Software Engineer/Network Admin)
Sam Deane (Software Engineer)
Kevin Turner (Software Engineer)
Mark Woodger (Head of research and translation)
Pete Sottrel (Head UK researcher)
Dean Gripton (CM Quiz master)
Marc Duffy (Internet Dev/Head of QA)
Joe O'Reilly (Lead Tester)
Marlon Davidson (Part time chief!)
Alex Bell (Office Manager)
<hr></blockquote>

Marc is just the guy who seems to get around every forum on the web

Darryl

theDutchman · 03-17-2002, 12:29 AM

[quote]Marc is just the guy who seems to get around every forum on the web<hr></blockquote>

You know, I knew he wasn't a one man show but I guess I have to admit it's easy to lose sight of that.

Thanks for the reminder.

dpwoodford · 03-17-2002, 04:13 AM

In the case of SI it seems to be a known situation, <a href="http://community.sigames.com/1/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=21019056&f=66919117&m=7061987583 " target="_blank">http://community.sigames.com/1/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=21019056&f=66919117&m=7061987583 </a> may be a useful reference...

It would seem that CM and OOTP are both assigned as 'high priority' and 'time-critical' applications, because at times they need a lot of processor power.

As I understand it, there is no simple way for them to redefine the task level continuously, either this is no way or it would be too performance depreciating.

Thus, they are continually assigned as high-priority and time-critical, and as such continue to recieve a lot of processing power even when not in use.

I wonder, if OOTP was always ran full screen like many other games people play, it wouldn't be noticed, and if indeed all games don't exhibit this behaviour.

In conclusion, I'd say it's not likely this will be resolved, but that's not an official policy

Darryl

Scott Vibert · 03-17-2002, 12:35 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Yossarian:


Don't have to be an attorney to answer this. The answer is a fat "no". If your computer is damaged by software, you have a cooling problem, period. Besides, it would be impossible to prove that the software did it anyway.<hr></blockquote>

Also I believe this is mentioned in your liscencing agreement that you accepted by installing and using the software.

Edit - BTW Thanks Darryl for doing some legwork on this issue for us.. (at the Champ Manager forums)

[ March 17, 2002: Message edited by: ScottVib ]

davep1967 · 03-18-2002, 05:47 AM

[quote]Originally posted by BleacherBum: (from Markus)

Well, this is not a problem, but by design!
I run OOTP with other applications running as well, and there are no problems at all. Also, since it's a game you usually do not do any other stuff besides playing :=) At least that's the case with most users!

Cheers,
Markus

<hr></blockquote>

Memo to Markus:

Dude - you have got to be kidding! By "design" to hog 100% of CPU?? :wtf:

Please change the "thread priority" of this application, because there are plenty of users (myself included) that have other applications open while running OOTP.

Taken from Delphi Help, but thread priority is the same for any Windows development language.

[quote]
Priority indicates the priority used when scheduling the thread. Adjust the priority higher or lower as needed.

TThreadPriority type defines the possible values for the Priority property of the TThread component, as defined in the following table. Windows schedules CPU cycles to each thread based on a priority scale; the Priority property adjusts a thread's priority higher or lower on the scale.

Values Meaning

tpIdle The thread executes only when the system is idle-Windows won't interrupt other threads to execute a thread with tpIdle priority.
tpLowest The thread's priority is two points below normal.
tpLower The thread's priority is one point below normal.
tpNormal The thread has normal priority.
tpHigher The thread's priority is one point above normal.
tpHighest The thread's priority is two points above normal.
tpTimeCritical The thread gets highest priority.

Warning: Boosting the thread priority of a CPU intensive operation may “starve” the other threads in the application. Only apply priority boosts to threads that spend most of their time waiting for external events.

<hr></blockquote>

I am guessing that this program is using "tpTimeCritical" instead of something like "tpNormal" (which is what most programs are).

By lowering this, you are not going to change the performance of OOTP4 AT ALL if there are no other applications running. If someone chooses to run other applications, then the game might run slower...big deal...that's obvious.

Glen · 03-18-2002, 09:47 AM

[quote] I am guessing that this program is using "tpTimeCritical" instead of something like "tpNormal" (which is what most programs are).

By lowering this, you are not going to change the performance of OOTP4 AT ALL if there are no other applications running. If someone chooses to run other applications, then the game might run slower...big deal...that's obvious.

<hr></blockquote>

There's the crux of the issue right there. You're talking about making a change to the way that the game will perform for everyone, for the benefit of a small minority who have a problem with it.

I've run the game on both my home and work PC's with many other applications open, ranging from Word, Excel, Eudora, and all of my work applications along with many different browser windows open and haven't seen any problems.

Championhip Manager does the exact same thing to my system, except the last time I ran that, I couldn't run anything else well at the same time.

But, you have to look at it this way. Should a developer change a program so that it may negatively impact 95% of all it's users, so that 5 or less % can be happier with it's performance? Me thinks no is the answer to that question. Also, this would depend on the simplicity of the solution. Your solution could be the correct one for other programs, but not necissarily for this one.

Glen

Markel · 03-18-2002, 10:08 AM

I think that the issue is more what OOTP is doing when *idle* than anything else.

Most people (I venture to guess) won't care if OOTP is using 100% CPU when calculating a sim, or doing something else that's intensive and takes processor juice to do.

But when it's smacking your CPU around doing nothing but running a scroll down along the bottom of the screen, *something's wrong.* That's just plain a waste of resources.

Even giving us a slider to set priority (like WinAmp and other apps do) would be welcome in this situation.

The two UI/OS related issues I'd like to see fixed here are the windowed display under XP (specifically the no scrolling and the covering of the top edge of the menu-bar), and this 100% CPU-usage thingie. I find them to be slightly more than minor irritations, but not enough, of course, that I wouldn't play such an excellently designed game.

Just my 0.02.

theDutchman · 03-18-2002, 10:29 AM

[quote]But, you have to look at it this way. Should a developer change a program so that it may negatively impact 95% of all it's users, so that 5 or less % can be happier with it's performance?<hr></blockquote>

Glen, please cite your source on those figuers.

Also, it's not neccessarily something that needs to be added to a patch. It can be a simple hot fix that you, the end user, could decide to install. Kinda like the Grand Prix Legends 1.7Ghz fix....folks that don't have a 1.7ghz+ cpu don't have to bother with it.

BleacherBum · 03-18-2002, 10:59 AM

Maybe when we hit 100 posts we'll hear more from OOTP on this topic?

03-15-2002, 05:35 PM	#82
KWhit Major Leagues Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 413	[quote]Originally posted by BasicGuy: <strong>I figured out the 100% cpu usage problem... The OOTP Team Is Conspireing with AMD & Intel to shorten the life span of our cpu's.....Why you might say what would steve or markus have to gain? Intel & Amd are giveing them 5% commisions on all cpu's ootp users buy. </strong><hr></blockquote> How unbelievably ridiculous this statement is!! Conspiring with AMD and Intel? What are you talking about? Are you nuts? Oh, wait... You were joking? Oh... Sorry... __________________

03-15-2002, 05:47 PM	#83
JimboJones Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 210	[quote]Originally posted by BasicGuy: <strong>Now people this Is not a bug....A bug is something that happens that wasnt suppose to. I have a feeling that however the game was coded is the reasoning behind this not a bug. Brad</strong><hr></blockquote> A bug can be either a flaw in the code, or a flaw in the design. What probably happened was the game was designed a certain way (maybe as far back as OOTP 1), and the developer never realized the CPU was running at 100%, even when the game was sitting idle. As I stated before, unless you are running on a laptop and your fan starts running constantly, you would never even notice the CPU usage. This is one of the disadvantages of running a small company. The larger software developers do performance testing, which would have caught this type of thing. The question is, what are they going to do about it now that its been reported? This may be one of those things thats either really easy to fix, or it may be the type of thing that requires major rework. Here's another interesting question for the attorneys ou there. This is probably covered in the license agreement, but could the developers be held liable if their software causes my CPU to overheat and become damaged? I realized proving the game caused the damage would be difficult, but I've heard of lawsuits for stranger things than this. [ March 15, 2002: Message edited by: JimboJones ]</p>

03-16-2002, 09:42 AM	#85
BleacherBum All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 672	I wouldn't call this "official", but the e-mail exchange documented below is the best I've gotten out of 'em. Interpret it as you like. I figured some here would find this interesting. My mail to OOTP support, March 12 Hello folks at OOTP. I just purchased OOTP4 about two hours ago), and am running into an issue that has me concerned. When I fire up OOTP, my processor runs consistently at 100% which is negatively impacting the performance of my other applications, and my computer in general. The forums confirmed that I'm not the first to run into this problem. It appears that I'm running into a processor bottleneck, specifically related to the OOTP program - see technical notes via forum posting by BleacherBum (link to here) Unfortunately, my initial experience with the game has been focused on researching this problem, instead of actually firing up my first League. And now, I'm a little hesitant to dive into the game, because I don't want to get attached to a piece of software that exhibits these symptoms. Perhaps you are already aware of this issue, and are pursuing a resolution? If not, any feedback would be greatly appreciated, and would help me get more comfortable with my purchase decision. I'll look forward to your reply, and to my first "opening day"... Sincerely, The BleacherBum The prompt reply, later that day Well, this is not a problem, but by design! I run OOTP with other applications running as well, and there are no problems at all. Also, since it's a game you usually do not do any other stuff besides playing :=) At least that's the case with most users! Cheers, Markus My response, as yet unanswered Thanks for the quick response Markus. It confirms the impressive endorsements I've read about your attention to the product and the users. I have to admit the answer caught me by surprise. I still expected the reason to be an OS problem, or a conflict with some other software. Is the game intentionally designed to grab and use all available processor resources to optimize performance? And if so, when the game is in an idle state, how is it able to effectively release those resources to other applications? Note that I am seeing a drag on my other applications when OOTP4 is running - that's what immediately tipped me off to the issue in the first place. I've also read that other users "don't see 100% CPU usage" - how is that possible if this is "by design"? The Performance Monitor analysis that I ran with the MMC indicates there is a processor bottleneck created by the program. Are you claiming that this is nothing to worry about? I guess I'm not convinced that everything is OK. This is not a common symptom of Windows applications. When you run the game, do you see your CPU constantly maxed at 100%? What exactly is happening behind the scenes, and why is that OK? Sorry if this comes off as nitpicking - perhaps I'm being overly cautious. In any event, if you do have some answers to these questions, I encourage you to post it in the Tech Support thread where currently 3 topics are building all on this particular issue. Thanks again for your time. [ March 16, 2002: Message edited by: BleacherBum ]</p> __________________ Right Field Sucks!

03-16-2002, 10:15 AM	#86
Yossarian Minors (Single A) Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Redondo Beach, CA Posts: 87	[quote]Originally posted by JimboJones: <strong>Here's another interesting question for the attorneys ou there. This is probably covered in the license agreement, but could the developers be held liable if their software causes my CPU to overheat and become damaged? I realized proving the game caused the damage would be difficult, but I've heard of lawsuits for stranger things than this.</strong><hr></blockquote> Don't have to be an attorney to answer this. The answer is a fat "no". If your computer is damaged by software, you have a cooling problem, period. Besides, it would be impossible to prove that the software did it anyway.

03-16-2002, 12:04 PM	#88
JimboJones Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 210	Yossarian, I don't believe I have a cooling problem. But OOTP is the only game or other software I have ever run that causes the cooling fan on my laptop to run almost the entire time the software is running. So far, I can only assume that the fan is adequately cooling the CPU. But what happens if over several months/years of playing OOTP, the fan motor wears out prematurely, causing the CPU to overheat? Is that a cooling problem? I don't think so. Laptops are designed to run at cooler temps, so that the fan does not have to run constantly. This increases battery life. If the fan IS running constantly because of the software, its a software problem. I agree you could never prove it was the software, but I don't think the above scenario is all that far fetched either. [ March 16, 2002: Message edited by: JimboJones ]</p>

03-15-2002, 03:18 PM	#81
BasicGuy Major Leagues Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: ND Posts: 478	ops forgot to mention Steve & Markus I'm ordering a Amd 2100XP so that commision check should be on the way Brad

03-16-2002, 07:56 AM	#84
wbonnell Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 77	Can we ever expect to receive official word on this?

03-16-2002, 10:38 AM	#87
dpwoodford Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 103	With regards to the guy who said that Major Production Houses would have caught it.. I don't think they come any bigger than Eidos, and every computer (5 now) I've played the latest version of Championship Manager on has exhibited the same problems. Incidently, this may be incorrect if Sports Interactive do their own testing, but they're still a pretty large company. I know a couple of the testers there, I might fire this off to them and see if they did pick it up in-house.. Darryl

03-16-2002, 12:24 PM	#89
Yossarian Minors (Single A) Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Redondo Beach, CA Posts: 87	Try this, I guarantee it will cause your fan to turn on. It's a great little program that serves as a stress test for your cpu and memory. <a href="http://www.mersenne.org/freesoft.htm" target="_blank">Prime95</a> Depending on your processor, motherboard, and BIOS, your system may shut down by itself once the temp reaches a critical level. I don't know as much about laptops as I do desktop systems but I believe most recent Intel systems support this.

03-16-2002, 01:38 PM	#90
Boyds Of Summer Bat Boy Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Hamilton,Ohio Posts: 6	Wow.Compared to the rest,I'm running an antiquated system of win95-200cpu-64mgs.If this game fries my up till now problem free system and I can't play Diamond Mind.I'll be way past pissed-off. Boyd __________________ "And THIS one belongs to the Reds!"-Marty Brennaman "Take those guys over to the other diamond,I want to see if they can play on the road"-Sparky Anderson,during Spring Training

03-16-2002, 09:18 PM	#91
theDutchman Bat Boy Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 17	[quote]With regards to the guy who said that Major Production Houses would have caught it.. I don't think they come any bigger than Eidos, and every computer (5 now) I've played the latest version of Championship Manager on has exhibited the same problems.<hr></blockquote> Production companies don't check for bugs from a developer. Eidos probably doesn't even understand any of the code in CM. (Check EA Sports and Front Office Football 2001/2002 for details) [quote]Incidently, this may be incorrect if Sports Interactive do their own testing, but they're still a pretty large company.<hr></blockquote> Now that is possible, but is Sports Interactive Marc Vaughn OR a producer for Marc Vaughn?

03-16-2002, 10:17 PM	#92
dpwoodford Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 103	Sports Interactive is the programming company.. Marc is the lead programmer, not the only one To Quote: [quote] Sports Interactive is the company responsible for developing the Championship Manager brand for Eidos Interactive. Founded in 1994 by Paul and Oliver Collyer, Sports Interactive is headquartered in Islington, London and is supported by hundreds of researchers around the world. Current Company Employees Oliver Collyer (Co-Chairman) Paul Collyer (Co-Chairman) Miles Jacobson (Managing Director) Keith Flannery (Software Engineer) Svein Kvernoey (Software Engineer) Marc Vaughan (Head of Development) Grant Appleyard (Software Engineer) Paul Norman (Software Engineer/Network Admin) Sam Deane (Software Engineer) Kevin Turner (Software Engineer) Mark Woodger (Head of research and translation) Pete Sottrel (Head UK researcher) Dean Gripton (CM Quiz master) Marc Duffy (Internet Dev/Head of QA) Joe O'Reilly (Lead Tester) Marlon Davidson (Part time chief!) Alex Bell (Office Manager) <hr></blockquote> Marc is just the guy who seems to get around every forum on the web Darryl

03-17-2002, 12:29 AM	#93
theDutchman Bat Boy Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 17	[quote]Marc is just the guy who seems to get around every forum on the web<hr></blockquote> You know, I knew he wasn't a one man show but I guess I have to admit it's easy to lose sight of that. Thanks for the reminder.

03-17-2002, 04:13 AM	#94
dpwoodford Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 103	In the case of SI it seems to be a known situation, <a href="http://community.sigames.com/1/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=21019056&f=66919117&m=7061987583 " target="_blank">http://community.sigames.com/1/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=21019056&f=66919117&m=7061987583 </a> may be a useful reference... It would seem that CM and OOTP are both assigned as 'high priority' and 'time-critical' applications, because at times they need a lot of processor power. As I understand it, there is no simple way for them to redefine the task level continuously, either this is no way or it would be too performance depreciating. Thus, they are continually assigned as high-priority and time-critical, and as such continue to recieve a lot of processing power even when not in use. I wonder, if OOTP was always ran full screen like many other games people play, it wouldn't be noticed, and if indeed all games don't exhibit this behaviour. In conclusion, I'd say it's not likely this will be resolved, but that's not an official policy Darryl

03-17-2002, 12:35 PM	#95
Scott Vibert Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: My Computer Posts: 8,182	[quote]Originally posted by Yossarian: <strong> Don't have to be an attorney to answer this. The answer is a fat "no". If your computer is damaged by software, you have a cooling problem, period. Besides, it would be impossible to prove that the software did it anyway.</strong><hr></blockquote> Also I believe this is mentioned in your liscencing agreement that you accepted by installing and using the software. Edit - BTW Thanks Darryl for doing some legwork on this issue for us.. (at the Champ Manager forums) [ March 17, 2002: Message edited by: ScottVib ]</p>

03-18-2002, 05:47 AM	#96
davep1967 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Cleveland, OH Posts: 176	[quote]Originally posted by BleacherBum: (from Markus) <strong> Well, this is not a problem, but by design! I run OOTP with other applications running as well, and there are no problems at all. Also, since it's a game you usually do not do any other stuff besides playing :=) At least that's the case with most users! Cheers, Markus </strong><hr></blockquote> Memo to Markus: Dude - you have got to be kidding! By "design" to hog 100% of CPU?? :wtf: Please change the "thread priority" of this application, because there are plenty of users (myself included) that have other applications open while running OOTP. Taken from Delphi Help, but thread priority is the same for any Windows development language. [quote] Priority indicates the priority used when scheduling the thread. Adjust the priority higher or lower as needed. TThreadPriority type defines the possible values for the Priority property of the TThread component, as defined in the following table. Windows schedules CPU cycles to each thread based on a priority scale; the Priority property adjusts a thread's priority higher or lower on the scale. Values Meaning tpIdle The thread executes only when the system is idle-Windows won't interrupt other threads to execute a thread with tpIdle priority. tpLowest The thread's priority is two points below normal. tpLower The thread's priority is one point below normal. tpNormal The thread has normal priority. tpHigher The thread's priority is one point above normal. tpHighest The thread's priority is two points above normal. tpTimeCritical The thread gets highest priority. Warning: Boosting the thread priority of a CPU intensive operation may “starve” the other threads in the application. Only apply priority boosts to threads that spend most of their time waiting for external events. <hr></blockquote> I am guessing that this program is using "tpTimeCritical" instead of something like "tpNormal" (which is what most programs are). By lowering this, you are not going to change the performance of OOTP4 AT ALL if there are no other applications running. If someone chooses to run other applications, then the game might run slower...big deal...that's obvious. __________________ Try the StickWare Schedule Generator!

03-18-2002, 09:47 AM	#97
Glen Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 153	[quote] I am guessing that this program is using "tpTimeCritical" instead of something like "tpNormal" (which is what most programs are). By lowering this, you are not going to change the performance of OOTP4 AT ALL if there are no other applications running. If someone chooses to run other applications, then the game might run slower...big deal...that's obvious. <hr></blockquote> There's the crux of the issue right there. You're talking about making a change to the way that the game will perform for everyone, for the benefit of a small minority who have a problem with it. I've run the game on both my home and work PC's with many other applications open, ranging from Word, Excel, Eudora, and all of my work applications along with many different browser windows open and haven't seen any problems. Championhip Manager does the exact same thing to my system, except the last time I ran that, I couldn't run anything else well at the same time. But, you have to look at it this way. Should a developer change a program so that it may negatively impact 95% of all it's users, so that 5 or less % can be happier with it's performance? Me thinks no is the answer to that question. Also, this would depend on the simplicity of the solution. Your solution could be the correct one for other programs, but not necissarily for this one. Glen __________________ Colorado Rockies - DBLC

03-18-2002, 10:08 AM	#98
Markel Bat Boy Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Saint Louis, MO Posts: 6	I think that the issue is more what OOTP is doing when idle than anything else. Most people (I venture to guess) won't care if OOTP is using 100% CPU when calculating a sim, or doing something else that's intensive and takes processor juice to do. But when it's smacking your CPU around doing nothing but running a scroll down along the bottom of the screen, something's wrong. That's just plain a waste of resources. Even giving us a slider to set priority (like WinAmp and other apps do) would be welcome in this situation. The two UI/OS related issues I'd like to see fixed here are the windowed display under XP (specifically the no scrolling and the covering of the top edge of the menu-bar), and this 100% CPU-usage thingie. I find them to be slightly more than minor irritations, but not enough, of course, that I wouldn't play such an excellently designed game. Just my 0.02.

03-18-2002, 10:29 AM	#99
theDutchman Bat Boy Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 17	[quote]But, you have to look at it this way. Should a developer change a program so that it may negatively impact 95% of all it's users, so that 5 or less % can be happier with it's performance?<hr></blockquote> Glen, please cite your source on those figuers. Also, it's not neccessarily something that needs to be added to a patch. It can be a simple hot fix that you, the end user, could decide to install. Kinda like the Grand Prix Legends 1.7Ghz fix....folks that don't have a 1.7ghz+ cpu don't have to bother with it.

03-18-2002, 10:59 AM	#100
BleacherBum All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 672	Maybe when we hit 100 posts we'll hear more from OOTP on this topic? __________________ Right Field Sucks!