I think, we have a glitch

[rink23]

Playing a game with my St. Louis River Walkers.
Late in the game and I am out of bench players, so I send up my best available pitcher in terms of swinging the bat.
(He is scheduled to be my next day's starter).
He singles and is eventually stranded on second.
I go to replace him with a reliever at the start of the next inning, but the game will not allow it.
I tried numerous options. It just was not going to happen.

So I let him face a batter.

It's a four-pitch ground out.
I remove him and game moves forward.
I go to set my lineup for the next game.
He is listed at 18 percent.
For what, one at bat and four pitches (which he should not have had to make)?.
Doesn't make sense.
(Edit: Looking at it closer, the pinch-hitter (Faedo) was batting for the pitcher. I don't remember how it played out, but could I have put him into the pitcher's spot which was why it insisted that he face a batter? Although, I doubt it would have slashed his energy rate from 100 to 18).

[Tram2Whitaker]

I don't know. If he's a big guy, running those bases can take a lot out of you.

[Drstrangelove]

When you replace a pitcher with a pitcher (as I assume you did from the OP), then the new pitcher must pitch to at least one batter until that batter is either retired or he becomes a base runner. That's rule 5.10 (or at least the way I'm reading 5.10.)

The charge for the 4 pitches includes the 25-35 warm up pitches he threw. The recovery time is because he's a starter.

[Orcin]

But he didn't replace the pitcher; he pinch-hit for the pitcher without selecting a replacement pitcher.

[Dyzalot]

Its a problem with the code in that it "sees" it as a pitcher replacing a pitcher and thus must face a batter. I bet that if the pinch hitting pitcher had been designated as a "2-way" player that the code would have seen him as a pinch hitter. I do this with any pitchers that I want available to the AI to use as a pinch hitter in an emergency but never plan on them actually producing as a 2-way player. It is more of a "trick" to get the AI to see the player differently when looking possible pinch hitters since I sim most of my seasons.

EDIT: One limitation with using the "2-way" player designation is it appears to me, through an admittedly small sample size, that once the AI uses a 2-way player as a batter or defensive replacement, it won't consider him as a possible pitcher for the remainder of the game.

[Charley575]

When you put him in to pinch hit, di you set his position to P or PH?

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by rink23

Playing a game with my St. Louis River Walkers.
Late in the game and I am out of bench players, so I send up my best available pitcher in terms of swinging the bat.
(He is scheduled to be my next day's starter).
He singles and is eventually stranded on second.
I go to replace him with a reliever at the start of the next inning, but the game will not allow it.
I tried numerous options. It just was not going to happen.

So I let him face a batter.

It's a four-pitch ground out.
I remove him and game moves forward.
I go to set my lineup for the next game.
He is listed at 18 percent.
For what, one at bat and four pitches (which he should not have had to make)?.
Doesn't make sense.
(Edit: Looking at it closer, the pinch-hitter (Faedo) was batting for the pitcher. I don't remember how it played out, but could I have put him into the pitcher's spot which was why it insisted that he face a batter? Although, I doubt it would have slashed his energy rate from 100 to 18).

The bold is, most likely, the cause of the game making him have to face a batter if by "pitcher's spot" you mean the "pitcher's box" that is separate from the "batting order box".

If you put him in the "pitcher's box" then he becomes the new pitcher.

If you put him into the pitcher's spot in the batting order then he should have defaulted to a "ph". If you did put him in the batting order and this didn't happen then it should be fixed.

I've PH a pitcher for another pitcher only a handful of times and to tell the truth I'm not sure exactly how I did it, though I know I was not forced to make the pinch hitting pitcher, pitch. I am fairly cautious doing thing like this so I would bet, when I put the P in to PH, I first set the position in the lineup to "-", then put the P in that lineup spot, and changed it to "PH".

[Dyzalot]

While we are on the topic, I believe this is a perfect example of where OOTP isn't matching up well with MLB reality. In my opinion, this should be a "fully rested" starter ready to take his turn in the rotation.

[One Great Matrix]

Glitch was a good word, it seems.

[kingusc]

Originally Posted by Charley575

When you put him in to pinch hit, di you set his position to P or PH?

My guess would be that this is the issue. Which you might have done manually by changing the default PH to P. But also could have been done for you if you put the pinch-hitting pitcher into the "Current Pitcher" box to the right of the lineup. That will automatically make the pinch-hitter the pitcher and he'll have to face a hitter. I use Brendan McKay as a pinch-hitter all the time with no problem. So try just putting him into the lineup and leaving him as a PH.

[Drstrangelove]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

While we are on the topic, I believe this is a perfect example of where OOTP isn't matching up well with MLB reality. In my opinion, this should be a "fully rested" starter ready to take his turn in the rotation.

In 2018, in MLB, there were 108 games started (out of the 4,862 games), or just 2% of all the starts, on 2 days or less rest. Ninety-eight percent of all the starts were made on 3 or more days rest. In short: No, pitchers do not routinely start on 2 days rest. And, those 108 starts resulted in only 235 innings pitched, or an average of just 2 innings per start. Only 6 out of those 108 times did a pitcher even get through 5 innings. In short: No, managers do not expect pitchers starting games to go very far on 2 days rest.

It just doesn't look like in MLB pitchers really do that: they don't pitch very long--- as a starter --- on 2 days rest.

[Dyzalot]

It happens every start in MLB. Every starter throws pitches on like day 2 or 3 of their 5 "off days". If it is such a bad strategy, why is it so often used in the playoffs? How many times in just the past five seasons has a starter made a start in the playoffs after throwing a few pitches in relief two or three days prior? Just last year the Red Sox had Rick Porcello start once three days after a relief appearance. David Price put up seven strong innings two days after a relief appearance and Eduardo Rodriguez started a game and threw 90+ pitches the day after a relief appearance. Maybe my view on things is skewed because I'm a Red Sox fan but it seems like this has been a thing in the postseason for a while now.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

It happens every start in MLB. Every starter throws pitches on like day 2 or 3 of their 5 "off days". If it is such a bad strategy, why is it so often used in the playoffs? How many times in just the past five seasons has a starter made a start in the playoffs after throwing a few pitches in relief two or three days prior? Just last year the Red Sox had Rick Porcello start once three days after a relief appearance. David Price put up seven strong innings two days after a relief appearance and Eduardo Rodriguez started a game and threw 90+ pitches the day after a relief appearance. Maybe my view on things is skewed because I'm a Red Sox fan but it seems like this has been a thing in the postseason for a while now.

Because a championship is on the line and a long off season is just days away to recover? I don't see any team taking this risk in regular season games. Imagine the repercussions when an arm blows out.

I don't think throwing on off days during the season is in any way comparable to throwing in a game to a live batter.

[Drstrangelove]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

It happens every start in MLB. Every starter throws pitches on like day 2 or 3 of their 5 "off days". If it is such a bad strategy, why is it so often used in the playoffs? Maybe my view on things is skewed because I'm a Red Sox fan but it seems like this has been a thing in the postseason for a while now.

Last year: 2018 playoffs:

Here's how all four pitchers (Price, Porcello, Rodriquez, Kershaw) fared on less than 3 days:

GS-4
IP-20.2
H-21
R-14
ER-14
BB-8
SO-19

Impressive 6.10 ERA. Four pitchers which cumulatively we should probably agree are well-above average. 6.10. That's what it looks like when a pitcher starts when he's not fully rested.


Tossing at 3/4 speed (off flat ground?) isn't the same as throwing in a game. And if it actually was the same and if it actually didn't matter, then why is it there's no evidence of it being done except in dire circumstances? In short, why is it that it LOOKS like it's considered too risky, if in fact, it was something that "happens" all the time?

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by Drstrangelove

Last year: 2018 playoffs:

Here's how all four pitchers (Price, Porcello, Rodriquez, Kershaw) fared on less than 3 days:

GS-4
IP-20.2
H-21
R-14
ER-14
BB-8
SO-19

Impressive 6.10 ERA. Four pitchers which cumulatively we should probably agree are well-above average. 6.10. That's what it looks like when a pitcher starts when he's not fully rested.


Tossing at 3/4 speed (off flat ground?) isn't the same as throwing in a game. And if it actually was the same and if it actually didn't matter, then why is it there's no evidence of it being done except in dire circumstances? In short, why is it that it LOOKS like it's considered too risky, if in fact, it was something that "happens" all the time?

Take ****ty Kershaw out of there and it doesn't look so bad. Either way, OOTP will never allow a series of games with boxscores that look like the 2018 MLB playoffs. That seems to be a problem to me when it comes to fidelity.,

Also you claim it is done only in "dire circumstances". I say it is done at the most important time of the year. It makes sense if doing it increases the risk of injury but not performance to only do it at the end of the year when you have a full off season coming.

How many times in the past 20 years have we seen a starting pitcher have two starts and at least one relief appearance in a post season 7 game series? How many thousands of years would you have to sim in OOTP before you saw the AI utilize starters in the postseason in that manner? It shouldn't be that rare.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by Sweed

Because a championship is on the line and a long off season is just days away to recover? I don't see any team taking this risk in regular season games. Imagine the repercussions when an arm blows out.

I don't think throwing on off days during the season is in any way comparable to throwing in a game to a live batter.

I agree the risk probably isn't worth the reward most of the time. I'm not arguing that it should have no effect. I imagine if you did this in the regular season you'd increase risk to injury while pissing off most starting pitchers. Still though, a pitcher should be "rested" to start if the only pitches he threw in the last six days were three days ago and it was in a short relief appearance. At least that appears to me to be what really happens out there as evidenced by pitcher usage in the post season.

[Drstrangelove]

I'd always support making the game more realistic. The issue again isn't whether or not you can pitch a player who is 67% rested. You can. OOTP doesn't stop you. He might be lucky, or he might get blown out like 75% of the 2018 playoff pitchers did. The issue it seems is why should OOTP make him 100% rested? Or 90%? Or even 80%?

The evidence seems to indicate players just don't recover that fast. Don't we want OOTP to reflect how baseball players really work? If players were even 80% in that manner, we wouldn't see 6.10 ERA's, or pitchers only going as long as 5-6 innings just six times in an entire season. The evidence just doesn't seem to match the desired ratings, imo.

[olivertheorem]

Regarding Dyzalot's guy, are we all missing that 3 days prior he'd only thrown 11 pitches? I mean, I know he also had to warm up to throw those pitches, but one would think a starter used to throwing 90+ pitches per outing could recover sufficiently after throwing 11 in-game pitches three days prior to be ready for a regular start.

[Westheim]

I fell on my nose badly a few times when I started playing OOTP a long time ago, and then developed the habit of removing the "P" from the dropdown box in the lineup on the substitution screen whenever I intended to do something else than a mere pitcher-for-pitcher or pinch-hitter substitution. That includes double switches, sending a pinch-runner ... out of pure caution. I am pretty sure, dropping a pitcher on the active pitcher in the substitution screen, even for PH assignment, will not actually make the pinch-hitting pitcher a pinch-hitter.

This is a complicated sentence.

Originally Posted by Drstrangelove

In 2018, in MLB, there were 108 games started (out of the 4,862 games), or just 2% of all the starts, on 2 days or less rest. Ninety-eight percent of all the starts were made on 3 or more days rest. In short: No, pitchers do not routinely start on 2 days rest. And, those 108 starts resulted in only 235 innings pitched, or an average of just 2 innings per start. Only 6 out of those 108 times did a pitcher even get through 5 innings. In short: No, managers do not expect pitchers starting games to go very far on 2 days rest.

It just doesn't look like in MLB pitchers really do that: they don't pitch very long--- as a starter --- on 2 days rest.

Please report back with numbers excluding openers.

[Drstrangelove]

2018 MLB

Part 1

How much rest do pitchers get before starting:

Games started with 0 days rest = 9
Games started with 1 days rest = 38
Games started with 2 days rest = 61
Games started with 3 days rest = 59
Games started with 4 days rest or more = 4,695

MLB pitchers rarely start on 2 days rest or less. This happened just 2% of the time. In fact, even if one goes to 3 days or less rest, it happens just 3% of the time.



Part 2

What happens when pitchers have less than 3 days rest:

Games started with 0 days rest. Average start - 1.5 innings, ERA -5.27
Games started with 1 days rest. Average start - 1.7 innings, ERA -5.48
Games started with 2 days rest. Average start - 2.5 innings, ERA -4.60

Of the 108 games started on 2 days rest or less, only 6 games went 5 or 6 innings. Therefore, in games started on 2 days rest, the average starter only lasted ~ 2 innings, and 95.5% failed to get to the 5th inning.


Part 3

How do starting pitchers fare on less than 3 days rest:

Games started with 0 days rest. W-L (0-1)
Games started with 1 days rest. W-L (0-5)
Games started with 2 days rest. W-L (3-13)

Combined (3-19).

Games started with 3 days rest. W-L (4-21)

Combined with 3 days rest, starters are 7-40.


Starting pitchers with 3 days or less rest had a combined 7-40 record in 2018.


Part 4

What happened in the 2018 Playoffs when 4 (well above average) starters started a game with 2 days or less rest:

6.10 ERA.


There is no evidence that starting pitchers should be fully rested on 2 days rest provided the goal is to match real life modern baseball. Making a change like that would dramatically alter the simulation to make it substantially different from modern baseball.