No Starting Pitchers

Biggio509 · 01-25-2013, 08:02 PM

I saw a discussion that some people are theorizing the SP is a dated concept. Rather than a rotation have a staff where pitchers are expected to pitch 3 innings in a game. In theory this might work better because pitchers seem to have the most problems facing the lineup the second or third time. There was even discussion that a closer maybe should pitch the first inning to meet the top of the order. Of course there is the point that SPs are usually the best pitchers so a tired ace might be better than a rag arm reliever. Note: I don't think any major league team is contemplating this nor am I suggesting adding a 0 man rotation.

Has anyone tried to do this in OOTP? I have thought about experimenting with it. Is it possible to do if you sim? My first thought is you probably would have manage the games to try this.

Pig Pen · 01-25-2013, 08:07 PM

It's an interestin' idea that does have it's merits.
Now what the idea needs is someone as bold as Tony La Russa was when
he was reinventin' the bullpen back in the '80's.

Cryomaniac · 01-25-2013, 08:12 PM

Wasn't this kind of the idea behind the Joba rules? (Admittedly tailored to one person).

Hasta la vista pelota · 01-25-2013, 09:42 PM

MLB would have to change what constitutes a pitching win for this to happen. Pitchers would resist throwing three innings and not getting a positive stat for it. That's why managers waste their best reliever with a three-run lead in the ninth, so he can pick up a save.

ike121212 · 01-25-2013, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biggio509

I saw a discussion that some people are theorizing the SP is a dated concept. Rather than a rotation have a staff where pitchers are expected to pitch 3 innings in a game. In theory this might work better because pitchers seem to have the most problems facing the lineup the second or third time. There was even discussion that a closer maybe should pitch the first inning to meet the top of the order. Of course there is the point that SPs are usually the best pitchers so a tired ace might be better than a rag arm reliever. Note: I don't think any major league team is contemplating this nor am I suggesting adding a 0 man rotation.

Has anyone tried to do this in OOTP? I have thought about experimenting with it. Is it possible to do if you sim? My first thought is you probably would have manage the games to try this.

I've done this with the last few versions of the game, and there's some old threads around with the results. Short answer, it works extremely well. I'd set a rotation with 3 relievers, on a pitch limit, generally all lefties. I used 9 relievers, with no set roles, and the AI managed it pretty well.

The side benefit is, you can devote your 1st round pick and the majority of your budget to defense, knowing that you can keep a steady flow of quality RP's flowing from mid-round draft picks.

It was easy to run up 120-130 win seasons, but it was exploiting some major weaknesses in the AI. My top RP's would win 30 games a year, and occasionally 40+.

Caporegime · 01-25-2013, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pig Pen

It's an interestin' idea that does have it's merits.
Now what the idea needs is someone as bold as Tony La Russa was when
he was reinventin' the bullpen back in the '80's.

Actually, Tony LaRussa did experiment with this briefly back in 1993 while he was still managing the A's. His starting rotation was in absolute tatters by July and his options were rather limited.

In a pregame interview conducted with Tony Kubek (one of the Yankees broadcasters at the time) back in July of 1993, LaRussa announced his intention to employ this tactic and even discussed the concept of using his starters and relievers interchangeably for three inning intervals at length. I recall that his reasoning was identical to what Biggio509 wrote above.

I don't know why LaRussa ultimately bailed on this experiment after only a few games. My guess would be that the results weren't exactly what he was hoping for. I mean, it's tough to be innovative when the only tools you have at your disposal to facilitate change are the likes of Mike Mohler and Joe Boever.

Here's a link to the box score of that game:

Retrosheet Boxscore: Oakland Athletics 5, New York Yankees 4

Gator · 01-25-2013, 10:32 PM

The Rockies made a move towards this last season when they went to a four man rotation with a 75 pitch limit. Where it is widely accepted that a pitcher can reach maximum performance only for short spurts, it stands to reason that a single inning starter would outperform one who must conserve energy for future innings. I've heard Bill James endorse the statistical theory behind a bullpen only approach, while saying he personally would not like to see it happen as there is a certain amount of aesthetic value to the idea of the starting pitcher going the distance. Also it would probably require an expanded roster to support the strategy.

redwa · 01-26-2013, 09:01 PM

The theory sounds good on paper. The problem I see with it is the same problem I see when a manager gets too fancy with using too many pitchers in a game in general. The problem is someone is bound to have a bad game. It like when you see 3 pitchers used in one inning. I cringe because one of them is going to be off that day. Maybe I am old fashioned but I would rather stick to a few guys that are going good than run into the guy that is going to be terrible that day.

01-25-2013, 08:02 PM	#1
Biggio509 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 2,027	No Starting Pitchers I saw a discussion that some people are theorizing the SP is a dated concept. Rather than a rotation have a staff where pitchers are expected to pitch 3 innings in a game. In theory this might work better because pitchers seem to have the most problems facing the lineup the second or third time. There was even discussion that a closer maybe should pitch the first inning to meet the top of the order. Of course there is the point that SPs are usually the best pitchers so a tired ace might be better than a rag arm reliever. Note: I don't think any major league team is contemplating this nor am I suggesting adding a 0 man rotation. Has anyone tried to do this in OOTP? I have thought about experimenting with it. Is it possible to do if you sim? My first thought is you probably would have manage the games to try this.

01-25-2013, 08:12 PM	#3
Cryomaniac Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2007 Location: Hucknall, Notts, UK Posts: 4,902	Wasn't this kind of the idea behind the Joba rules? (Admittedly tailored to one person). __________________

01-25-2013, 10:32 PM	#7
Gator Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Washington DC Posts: 148	The Rockies made a move towards this last season when they went to a four man rotation with a 75 pitch limit. Where it is widely accepted that a pitcher can reach maximum performance only for short spurts, it stands to reason that a single inning starter would outperform one who must conserve energy for future innings. I've heard Bill James endorse the statistical theory behind a bullpen only approach, while saying he personally would not like to see it happen as there is a certain amount of aesthetic value to the idea of the starting pitcher going the distance. Also it would probably require an expanded roster to support the strategy. __________________ Baseball will take our people out-of-doors, fill them with oxygen, give them a larger physical stoicism. Tend to relieve us from being a nervous, dyspeptic set, Repair these losses, and be a blessing to us. Walt Whitman

01-25-2013, 08:07 PM	#2
Pig Pen Bat Boy Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Heart of Dixie Posts: 2	It's an interestin' idea that does have it's merits. Now what the idea needs is someone as bold as Tony La Russa was when he was reinventin' the bullpen back in the '80's.

01-25-2013, 09:42 PM	#4
Hasta la vista pelota Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 137	MLB would have to change what constitutes a pitching win for this to happen. Pitchers would resist throwing three innings and not getting a positive stat for it. That's why managers waste their best reliever with a three-run lead in the ninth, so he can pick up a save.

01-26-2013, 09:01 PM	#8
redwa Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 76	The theory sounds good on paper. The problem I see with it is the same problem I see when a manager gets too fancy with using too many pitchers in a game in general. The problem is someone is bound to have a bad game. It like when you see 3 pitchers used in one inning. I cringe because one of them is going to be off that day. Maybe I am old fashioned but I would rather stick to a few guys that are going good than run into the guy that is going to be terrible that day.