BZ 3134: Major problem with pitching staffs - Page 4

HH20xx convert · 07-25-2009, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by battists

Paul mentioned earlier that he has some further enhancements to the Mac licensing process for the next build, but Markus is on vacation right now, so the next patch won't be coming out for at least a little while...

Thanks very much,

Steve

Steve--Your post above seems to be in the wrong thread, do you have any feedback on the pitching staff issue? Lots of us are waiting to convert to OOTP 10. Thanks.

texasmame · 07-25-2009, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HH20xx convert

Steve--Your post above seems to be in the wrong thread, do you have any feedback on the pitching staff issue? Lots of us are waiting to convert to OOTP 10. Thanks.

Especially seeing as we already paid for it.

endgame · 07-25-2009, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by battists

Paul mentioned earlier that he has some further enhancements to the Mac licensing process for the next build, but Markus is on vacation right now, so the next patch won't be coming out for at least a little while...

Thanks very much,

Steve

Quote:

Originally Posted by HH20xx convert

Steve--Your post above seems to be in the wrong thread, do you have any feedback on the pitching staff issue? Lots of us are waiting to convert to OOTP 10. Thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by texasmame

Especially seeing as we already paid for it.

I think his response was actually the bolded portion, while indicating that Paul is, like the rest of us, waiting for Markus to return to activity.

texasmame · 08-07-2009, 09:07 PM

satchel · 09-01-2009, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nyy26wc

With only about 3 exceptions, all of the other teams in the majors had at least 1 starter that OOTP X decided to move to the bullpen and at least 1 reliever moved into the rotation.

I don't see how this is a problem. OOTPX looks at pitchers differently than OOTP9 did. Some pitchers' roles have changed, when converting from one game version to the other. No one ever guaranteed that pitchers were going to keep their exact same roles, from one version of the game to the next.

In my online leagues that have converted from OOTP9 to OOTPX, some pitchers who were starters and now relievers, and some who were relievers are now starters. It's no malfunction, that's just how the game is.

nyy26wc · 09-01-2009, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by satchel

I don't see how this is a problem. OOTPX looks at pitchers differently than OOTP9 did. Some pitchers' roles have changed, when converting from one game version to the other. No one ever guaranteed that pitchers were going to keep their exact same roles, from one version of the game to the next.

That's funny. No manager ever guarantees that everybody on the roster will retain their same exact role from year to year, and yet, entrenched pitchers with long track records of pitching just over 1 inning per game do not move to the rotation in epidemic fashion.

texasmame · 09-01-2009, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nyy26wc

That's funny. No manager ever guarantees that everybody on the roster will retain their same exact role from year to year, and yet, entrenched pitchers with long track records of pitching just over 1 inning per game do not move to the rotation in epidemic fashion.

Face it, guys. The game is f'ed up when it comes to pitcher roles when you look at the pitcher's history and the way X chooses to use some of them.

It's an issue, and a major one, that needs fixing.

satchel · 09-01-2009, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nyy26wc

That's funny. No manager ever guarantees that everybody on the roster will retain their same exact role from year to year, and yet, entrenched pitchers with long track records of pitching just over 1 inning per game do not move to the rotation in epidemic fashion.

In my OOTP9 leagues that converted to OOTPX there are a couple of pitchers per staff who've changed roles. Saying that it's a major problem is a gross overstatement.

battists · 09-01-2009, 09:05 PM

One of the struggles here is that every OOTP 9 game is different, so the changes to the pitching system had different effects on many of them. Some leagues experienced few changes, others experienced more. Some customers weren't bothered by the change, and others feel more strongly about it, as we can see in this thread.

We're still trying to look at things...thanks for your patience.

Steve

Markus Heinsohn · 09-04-2009, 09:13 AM

The game converts OOTP 9 leagues as good as possible. The examples stated that suddenly relievers in OOTP 9 start in OOTP 10 is not a relevant point, these pitchers could have been used as starters in OOTP 9 and they would have performed well of their ratings were good. OOTP 9 basically had an AI flaw in that it did not use these pitchers as starters even if they could start (on a 1-100 endurance scale anybody above 25 was able to start). OOTP 10 fixes this, leading to optimized rosters.

This works flawlessly in my opinion.

If anyone feels that this sevelery hinders the enjoyment of the game, contact support@elicense.com for a refund request.

Markus Heinsohn · 09-04-2009, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by texasmame

Face it, guys. The game is f'ed up when it comes to pitcher roles when you look at the pitcher's history and the way X chooses to use some of them.

It's an issue, and a major one, that needs fixing.

No it's not. IF something is f'ed up then it's OOTP 9.

nyy26wc · 09-04-2009, 09:23 AM

So, in other words, OOTP considers pitchers with proven track records that they pitch about 1.5 IP per game to be starter material, the flaw in OOTP9 was it didn't start those pitchers so OOTP10 fixed that flaw by making them starters.

If considering 1.5 IP/game pitchers to be relievers is a flaw in OOTP9, then the goal of OOTP10 should be to perpetuate the "flaw."

texasmame · 09-04-2009, 06:30 PM

Apparently not.

texasmame · 09-04-2009, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

The game converts OOTP 9 leagues as good as possible. The examples stated that suddenly relievers in OOTP 9 start in OOTP 10 is not a relevant point, these pitchers could have been used as starters in OOTP 9 and they would have performed well of their ratings were good. OOTP 9 basically had an AI flaw in that it did not use these pitchers as starters even if they could start (on a 1-100 endurance scale anybody above 25 was able to start). OOTP 10 fixes this, leading to optimized rosters.

This works flawlessly in my opinion.

If anyone feels that this sevelery hinders the enjoyment of the game, contact support@elicense.com for a refund request.

Are we going to have your "support" when attempting to get a refund from this third party company?

And what happened to the option for a credit for next year's game instead of that?

texasmame · 09-10-2009, 03:46 PM

Aaaand. . . nothing.

Ah, well. I guess I'll keep using 9 and just chalk up my lost $35 to a lesson learned about pre-ordering anymore OOTP products. Or maybe ordering anymore at all.

What a waste of a 500th post.

"Lee Smith - boarderline MLB starter." Yeah, it's working right.

battists · 09-10-2009, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by texasmame

"Lee Smith - boarderline MLB starter." Yeah, it's working right.

Hey texasmame and nyy26wc (and anyone else concerned about this issue),

First off, we're always very sorry when we have unhappy customers.

Unfortunately, I think we've reached a point where we won't be putting any more effort into resolving this. If I can interject my own opinions for moment, Markus' point wasn't that "Lee Smith should be a borderline MLB starter." In fact, if you start up a new OOTP 10 historical league in 1992, sim a few months, and look at Lee Smith, he's a 3.5-star closer, which seems about right. (Although of course, how he is used by the AI could depend on things that happen in your league when you sim - trades, injuries, etc.)

The pitching model was completely revised in OOTP 10, and although we play-tested converted OOTP 9 leagues, it simply was not possible to guarantee that pitcher behavior wouldn't change in existing leagues with the implementation of the new pitching model. It's roughly akin to, say, if MLB changed the rules for strike zones to make them smaller. That would undoubtedly cause some pitcher roles to change, because pitchers with less control would be exposed even more, resulting in pitchers who had been productive pitchers in the past becoming inadequate pitchers under the new rules. In this case, of course, the rules of pitching didn't change, but the rules for the OOTP engine to determine pitcher effectiveness did. (OK, I DID say "roughly" akin. I understand it's not a perfect metaphor.

)

At the end of the day (or development cycle), there just wasn't a way for Markus to code OOTP 10 to ensure that OOTP 9 leagues would get all of the benefits of OOTP 10's pitching model, while simultaneously guaranteeing all pitchers would behave fundamentally the same as they did in OOTP 9. And since not every customer would want converted leagues to be handled in that manner (witness Satchel above), there was simply no way we could make everyone happy. It's just a shame that anyone had to end up with the short end of the stick, and we ARE sorry that you're unhappy with the results. Of course we want to keep you as a customer!

All that said, I'd like to think that your problem doesn't make OOTP 10 a waste of money, although I can absolutely understand your disappointment regarding your OOTP 9 saved game. We believe that a MLB league started in OOTP 10 would still provide a great gaming experience for you. (Some of the semi-related pitching issues that Clamel mentioned in this thread will also be resolved in the next patch, so that will only make things even better.) Again, as Markus suggested, if you feel that this makes the game completely unplayable, please contact e-License, and let us know if you run into any issues.

So, again, I'm sorry about your disappointment, but I hope this helps you understand our reasoning and decision on this.

Steve

nyy26wc · 09-14-2009, 12:41 PM

I am a programmer who has designed a baseball encyclopedia. I know from experience that it would be very very easy to solve this problem.

What do all relievers have in common? They all have low IP/G totals. So, it is easy to identify them.

All that would need to be done is code similar to this--

If IP/G < 2 and END >= whatever you want to use as the minimum for a starter then END = whatever you want to use as the minimum for a starter - 1

08-07-2009, 09:07 PM	#64
texasmame All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Planet Texas Posts: 1,560	__________________ Stewarding the expansion TAIWAN EXPLOSIVE GO SALMON in the NL West. As the defending NL West Champions, the SALMON fall to the wildcard Dakota Rushmores in the first round in seven games.

09-01-2009, 09:05 PM	#69
battists Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 18,506 Blog Entries: 7	One of the struggles here is that every OOTP 9 game is different, so the changes to the pitching system had different effects on many of them. Some leagues experienced few changes, others experienced more. Some customers weren't bothered by the change, and others feel more strongly about it, as we can see in this thread. We're still trying to look at things...thanks for your patience. Steve __________________ Come check out my dynasty report, Funky Times!

09-04-2009, 09:13 AM	#70
Markus Heinsohn Developer OOTP Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Germany Posts: 24,739	The game converts OOTP 9 leagues as good as possible. The examples stated that suddenly relievers in OOTP 9 start in OOTP 10 is not a relevant point, these pitchers could have been used as starters in OOTP 9 and they would have performed well of their ratings were good. OOTP 9 basically had an AI flaw in that it did not use these pitchers as starters even if they could start (on a 1-100 endurance scale anybody above 25 was able to start). OOTP 10 fixes this, leading to optimized rosters. This works flawlessly in my opinion. If anyone feels that this sevelery hinders the enjoyment of the game, contact support@elicense.com for a refund request. __________________ Buy Out of the Park Baseball 25 now! Download OOTP Go 25 for iOS Download OOTP Go 25 for Android Last edited by Markus Heinsohn; 09-04-2009 at 09:15 AM.

09-04-2009, 06:30 PM	#73
texasmame All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Planet Texas Posts: 1,560	Apparently not. __________________ Stewarding the expansion TAIWAN EXPLOSIVE GO SALMON in the NL West. As the defending NL West Champions, the SALMON fall to the wildcard Dakota Rushmores in the first round in seven games.

09-10-2009, 03:46 PM	#75
texasmame All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Planet Texas Posts: 1,560	Aaaand. . . nothing. Ah, well. I guess I'll keep using 9 and just chalk up my lost $35 to a lesson learned about pre-ordering anymore OOTP products. Or maybe ordering anymore at all. What a waste of a 500th post. "Lee Smith - boarderline MLB starter." Yeah, it's working right. __________________ Stewarding the expansion TAIWAN EXPLOSIVE GO SALMON in the NL West. As the defending NL West Champions, the SALMON fall to the wildcard Dakota Rushmores in the first round in seven games.

09-04-2009, 09:23 AM	#72
nyy26wc All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 678	So, in other words, OOTP considers pitchers with proven track records that they pitch about 1.5 IP per game to be starter material, the flaw in OOTP9 was it didn't start those pitchers so OOTP10 fixed that flaw by making them starters. If considering 1.5 IP/game pitchers to be relievers is a flaw in OOTP9, then the goal of OOTP10 should be to perpetuate the "flaw."

09-14-2009, 12:41 PM	#77
nyy26wc All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 678	I am a programmer who has designed a baseball encyclopedia. I know from experience that it would be very very easy to solve this problem. What do all relievers have in common? They all have low IP/G totals. So, it is easy to identify them. All that would need to be done is code similar to this-- If IP/G < 2 and END >= whatever you want to use as the minimum for a starter then END = whatever you want to use as the minimum for a starter - 1