AI likes a trade better when they give me more players

NoxMortem · 11-18-2017, 10:39 AM

Why does the AI consider trades where they give me more players better than a trade where they give me just a player? is it because of the budget space and the value per $?

RchW · 11-18-2017, 01:33 PM

I don't think you can make a blanket statement about AI trading. It depends on specific file settings and player talent distribution. I never get multiple players back unless I offer 1 more player than the AI.

NoxMortem · 11-19-2017, 05:50 AM

Thanks. Someone on discord already told me I just should completely ignore the AI scouting recommendations and make the trades I feel good about. That makes me feel better as before I always felt it was solely because I know nothing about ootp and baseball

1

RchW · 11-19-2017, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoxMortem

Thanks. Someone on discord already told me I just should completely ignore the AI scouting recommendations and make the trades I feel good about. That makes me feel better as before I always felt it was solely because I know nothing about ootp and baseball

1

The only advice I can give is to look at any trade as if you were the other GM. If you wouldn’t do it from the other POV then don’t.

NoOne · 11-19-2017, 12:13 PM

well, don't ignore what the other team is saying.. ignore what your scout is saying.

the other scout gives important feedback. some phrases are roughly equivalent (the ones near bottom of interest - no interest etc).

if they absolutely hate a player, it could help the trade if you take that player... and vice versa... if oyu add a seemingly highly rated player to a trade and you see via their feedback that interest has gone down, you need to remove that player from the trade immediately, unless it is the primary goal to get rid of said player.

money, ratings, any combination that the AI uses to evaluate a players value today and in future... if they don't like them for these reasons, it will hurt/help a trade depending on whom is taking the *crap* player (*perception, not necessarily true unless 100% accurate scouting is on)

RP are notorious for this. Something is different in last couple years, but they still mostly ruin trades... nowadays, at least teh well-rated ones can actually move the meter on the feedback meter (meter - what the other gm says in trade screen). i've even seen teams with very high interest in a good RP prospect this year... nearly a 1:1 for a good player due to the team's extreme need of RP. a player you would never expect to get for an RP in the recent past.

progen · 11-19-2017, 06:03 PM

Put the settings on hard, neutral, or very hard, neutral, and see how the AI acts then.

And then when you get really brave, play a game of stats only, and see how you do! It's not for everyone, as players here need those stars, and ratings to jump out at them. It really makes you pay close attention to a players stats, and go with that "gut feeling" more times than not, and put your scouting at normal, or below.

NoOne · 11-20-2017, 03:18 PM

even gm's in RL don't play with stats only.

should have some sort of guage of their physical abilities. a low resolution/low accuaracy scale would mimic RL as best the game can, methinks.

i can't give up the 1-100scale. a dependency i intend to break at some point.

mil stats have very little correlation to mlb stats. it's more difficult because it is less and worse info to go on compared to most used settings/ratings combos. more uncertainty under same logic and conceptually the same, not more skill required.

gut feeling = wildly stabbing at the air, not any additionally required skill of playing the game. i guess that's brave. a bit masochistic for a leisurely video game

not arguing what you enjoy, just how you projected why others don't or can't lol... my smug alert went off. sorry.

progen · 11-20-2017, 06:04 PM

Whatever "floats your boat" really. So many ways to play this game, but for me, stats only has kept me buying the game every year for the last four or five. Some will play a watered down version, and keep some ratings in, speed, etc., but again, whatever works for each player.

NoOne · 11-21-2017, 02:01 PM

i mean to quantify each players speed... heck, we'd need a stopwatch to know that in a precise enough manner worthwhile to catalog. 'real' gm's wouldn't sink so low to use that kind of readily available info, if they had any pride. they just play it watered down, if they do.

not afraid to double down, i see.

progen · 11-21-2017, 02:44 PM

Start a new game and play stats only and see if you like it and let me know. Do fictional of course, and for a real challenge, sim some 5-7 years, and then take over an expansion team. I keep my payroll low(always at or near the bottom), and see how far I can take my team.

If you decide to jump in and can break away from using stars and ratings(so much easier), and you're interested in how I set games up(not an expert by any means, but use what I've found to work best for me), let me know!

NoOne · 11-24-2017, 03:08 PM

my comments are not about the +/- of your preference... it was the fact you think it's superior for purely subjective reasons. e.g. people can play it a different way, if they want, but it's "watered down" or easier or some other passive-aggressive comment in the guise of magnanimity.

it may result in fewer wins, relative to the weaker/more random info used, but that doesn't require any additional skill and 100% out of your control who/where/when it rears its ugly head -- that equates to an arbitrary difference and not somethign to be proud of or to be pretentious about. the distribution curve will only shift left/right, it will not get mishapen/warped under most ~competitive settings. it's still the exact same game and the exact same decisions using the same info in a different form.

i.e. it will take the same amount of skill to reach the 99th percentile, regardless of how many wins the 99th percentile equates to.

PSUColonel · 12-23-2017, 07:16 AM

It would be a nice addition if your opposing GM could give you feedback on players you are offering/asking for.

A system where you could get an idea if the gym hates a big layer, is lindifferent, luke warm, warm or even loves each individual player, as it pertains to the trade negotiation.

NoOne · 12-23-2017, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

It would be a nice addition if your opposing GM could give you feedback on players you are offering/asking for.

A system where you could get an idea if the gym hates a big layer, is lindifferent, luke warm, warm or even loves each individual player, as it pertains to the trade negotiation.

you can

as you add players you need to pay attention to how their demeanor changes in the feedback. how far it moves the needle tells you how much they like them... you go from "are you joking" to "Yes! i agree" it's quite obvious... but even at lower levels of interest you can tell.

if necessary, add a piece you don't intend to use so that the needle is ~near a known spot... so you can tell if it's +/- when you add a player and a good guess as to how much. with other feedback like team demands, it doesn't take much playing around to find stuff they like.

e.g. i'm not 100% sure of the order at the lower-end. but something akin to:

this is an insult
are you joking
this is a very bad deal
while i don't quite consider this a ...

.etc etc.. it's ordinal, maybe at low-end i think some are interchangeable? i could have 1 of those backward or missing somethnign, all off top of head at moment. no problem, just move the needle up to the more obvious feedback and ad 1 player / remove a player to gauge interest more accurately.

Hrycaj · 12-23-2017, 07:22 PM

Trade logic is something that will always be hotly debated on these forums. OOTP has come a long way in this area and will continue to do so without a doubt in my mind. However, when I play I don't give a second thought about whether a trade is fair to the other team. If the game allows me to do it, then let's go. I also don't believe that gm's in real life are worried one bit if the fit is good or fair for the other team.

As for difficulty I play mostly stats only but have played with ratings on and to be honest I find trading easier on stats only. When ratings are on I can't ignore the fact that they are there. I can't get past them at all. When they are off I'm just looking at different things. So I don't think ratings players are watering down their experience at all. Which is a dumb thing to debate in a game anyway, The more info at your disposal makes the decisions so much harder to me.

NoOne · 12-24-2017, 09:32 PM

i 2nd the - take what you can get - mantra.

PSUColonel · 12-27-2017, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoOne

you can

as you add players you need to pay attention to how their demeanor changes in the feedback. how far it moves the needle tells you how much they like them... you go from "are you joking" to "Yes! i agree" it's quite obvious... but even at lower levels of interest you can tell.

if necessary, add a piece you don't intend to use so that the needle is ~near a known spot... so you can tell if it's +/- when you add a player and a good guess as to how much. with other feedback like team demands, it doesn't take much playing around to find stuff they like.

e.g. i'm not 100% sure of the order at the lower-end. but something akin to:

this is an insult
are you joking
this is a very bad deal
while i don't quite consider this a ...

.etc etc.. it's ordinal, maybe at low-end i think some are interchangeable? i could have 1 of those backward or missing somethnign, all off top of head at moment. no problem, just move the needle up to the more obvious feedback and ad 1 player / remove a player to gauge interest more accurately.

I mean for each specific player...not the deal as a whole...color codes would work...red, orange, yellow, green, blue

NoOne · 12-30-2017, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

I mean for each specific player...not the deal as a whole...color codes would work...red, orange, yellow, green, blue

yes, you can.

i described the process to deduce value of each individual player. it changes incrementally as you add a player, therefore you can easily know what each individual is worth to the trade.

a crap player won't move a needle at all times... sometimes having a "base" before you add the player will help. it's incremental, so whether it's 3-1 or 10-8 it's the same = "2" value (assign # to verbal feedback as one example - bad one but communicates the idea. assumes too much about scale et al)

11-18-2017, 10:39 AM	#1
NoxMortem Minors (Single A) Join Date: Dec 2016 Posts: 64	AI likes a trade better when they give me more players Why does the AI consider trades where they give me more players better than a trade where they give me just a player? is it because of the budget space and the value per $?

11-18-2017, 01:33 PM	#2
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: The big smoke Posts: 15,628	I don't think you can make a blanket statement about AI trading. It depends on specific file settings and player talent distribution. I never get multiple players back unless I offer 1 more player than the AI. __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

11-24-2017, 03:08 PM	#11
NoOne Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 7,167	my comments are not about the +/- of your preference... it was the fact you think it's superior for purely subjective reasons. e.g. people can play it a different way, if they want, but it's "watered down" or easier or some other passive-aggressive comment in the guise of magnanimity. it may result in fewer wins, relative to the weaker/more random info used, but that doesn't require any additional skill and 100% out of your control who/where/when it rears its ugly head -- that equates to an arbitrary difference and not somethign to be proud of or to be pretentious about. the distribution curve will only shift left/right, it will not get mishapen/warped under most ~competitive settings. it's still the exact same game and the exact same decisions using the same info in a different form. i.e. it will take the same amount of skill to reach the 99th percentile, regardless of how many wins the 99th percentile equates to. Last edited by NoOne; 11-24-2017 at 03:39 PM.

12-23-2017, 07:22 PM	#14
Hrycaj All Star Starter Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 1,364	Trade logic is something that will always be hotly debated on these forums. OOTP has come a long way in this area and will continue to do so without a doubt in my mind. However, when I play I don't give a second thought about whether a trade is fair to the other team. If the game allows me to do it, then let's go. I also don't believe that gm's in real life are worried one bit if the fit is good or fair for the other team. As for difficulty I play mostly stats only but have played with ratings on and to be honest I find trading easier on stats only. When ratings are on I can't ignore the fact that they are there. I can't get past them at all. When they are off I'm just looking at different things. So I don't think ratings players are watering down their experience at all. Which is a dumb thing to debate in a game anyway, The more info at your disposal makes the decisions so much harder to me. __________________ Click on my signature to read about the great game of baseball in Normington. Last edited by Hrycaj; 12-23-2017 at 07:23 PM.

11-19-2017, 05:50 AM	#3
NoxMortem Minors (Single A) Join Date: Dec 2016 Posts: 64	Thanks. Someone on discord already told me I just should completely ignore the AI scouting recommendations and make the trades I feel good about. That makes me feel better as before I always felt it was solely because I know nothing about ootp and baseball 1

11-19-2017, 12:13 PM	#5
NoOne Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 7,167	well, don't ignore what the other team is saying.. ignore what your scout is saying. the other scout gives important feedback. some phrases are roughly equivalent (the ones near bottom of interest - no interest etc). if they absolutely hate a player, it could help the trade if you take that player... and vice versa... if oyu add a seemingly highly rated player to a trade and you see via their feedback that interest has gone down, you need to remove that player from the trade immediately, unless it is the primary goal to get rid of said player. money, ratings, any combination that the AI uses to evaluate a players value today and in future... if they don't like them for these reasons, it will hurt/help a trade depending on whom is taking the crap player (*perception, not necessarily true unless 100% accurate scouting is on) RP are notorious for this. Something is different in last couple years, but they still mostly ruin trades... nowadays, at least teh well-rated ones can actually move the meter on the feedback meter (meter - what the other gm says in trade screen). i've even seen teams with very high interest in a good RP prospect this year... nearly a 1:1 for a good player due to the team's extreme need of RP. a player you would never expect to get for an RP in the recent past.

11-19-2017, 06:03 PM	#6
progen All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,526 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	Put the settings on hard, neutral, or very hard, neutral, and see how the AI acts then. And then when you get really brave, play a game of stats only, and see how you do! It's not for everyone, as players here need those stars, and ratings to jump out at them. It really makes you pay close attention to a players stats, and go with that "gut feeling" more times than not, and put your scouting at normal, or below.

11-20-2017, 03:18 PM	#7
NoOne Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 7,167	even gm's in RL don't play with stats only. should have some sort of guage of their physical abilities. a low resolution/low accuaracy scale would mimic RL as best the game can, methinks. i can't give up the 1-100scale. a dependency i intend to break at some point. mil stats have very little correlation to mlb stats. it's more difficult because it is less and worse info to go on compared to most used settings/ratings combos. more uncertainty under same logic and conceptually the same, not more skill required. gut feeling = wildly stabbing at the air, not any additionally required skill of playing the game. i guess that's brave. a bit masochistic for a leisurely video game not arguing what you enjoy, just how you projected why others don't or can't lol... my smug alert went off. sorry.

11-20-2017, 06:04 PM	#8
progen All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,526 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	Whatever "floats your boat" really. So many ways to play this game, but for me, stats only has kept me buying the game every year for the last four or five. Some will play a watered down version, and keep some ratings in, speed, etc., but again, whatever works for each player.

11-21-2017, 02:01 PM	#9
NoOne Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 7,167	i mean to quantify each players speed... heck, we'd need a stopwatch to know that in a precise enough manner worthwhile to catalog. 'real' gm's wouldn't sink so low to use that kind of readily available info, if they had any pride. they just play it watered down, if they do. not afraid to double down, i see.

11-21-2017, 02:44 PM	#10
progen All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,526 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	Start a new game and play stats only and see if you like it and let me know. Do fictional of course, and for a real challenge, sim some 5-7 years, and then take over an expansion team. I keep my payroll low(always at or near the bottom), and see how far I can take my team. If you decide to jump in and can break away from using stars and ratings(so much easier), and you're interested in how I set games up(not an expert by any means, but use what I've found to work best for me), let me know!

12-23-2017, 07:16 AM	#12
PSUColonel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 12,990 Blog Entries: 37	It would be a nice addition if your opposing GM could give you feedback on players you are offering/asking for. A system where you could get an idea if the gym hates a big layer, is lindifferent, luke warm, warm or even loves each individual player, as it pertains to the trade negotiation.

12-24-2017, 09:32 PM	#15
NoOne Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 7,167	i 2nd the - take what you can get - mantra.