Historical-WHA merger

demons19 · 06-23-2016, 12:24 AM

Can someone tell me what happens to the players I own the rights to when the WHA teams merge into the NHL?
I am assuming any right I have for those players disappear correct?

Can I also assume the rights to players on the WHA teams that folded remain with me?

Thanks

demons19 · 06-23-2016, 12:33 AM

I just read...........As part of the agreement, the NHL treated it more as an expansion rather than an outright merger. The former WHA clubs were stripped of most of their players and permitted to keep only two goaltenders and two skaters, and NHL teams were given the right to reclaim players from the WHA clubs without compensation. The four former WHA teams were also placed at the end of the draft order for the 1979 NHL Entry Draft, as opposed to previous NHL expansion teams, which had been placed at the front of the draft order.

Is this how the game also handles this?

JeffR · 06-23-2016, 01:48 AM

It's a bit of a mess to model, so we've had to abstract it a bit to fit the way the game works, but what happens in the game is roughly this:

All of the WHA teams fold (including the 4 that merged into the NHL); if you're running one of them, you'll lose your job

Four expansion teams are added to the NHL, and an expansion draft is held - if you want to take over one of them, you can do it as soon as this happens on July 1 using commissioner mode, so you can immediately pick up with the NHL version of a WHA team you were GM of

All the WHA players become free agents, but some get NHL rights assigned as follows (and effectively become restricted free agents, since their rights are owned):
-players whose NHL rights are already owned stay as they are (one caveat here: if your game started during the WHA years, some players won't have NHL rights assigned to the teams that owned them historically, since when the game is created only the game doesn't "know" which NHL team owned them last, just who they're with at the start date - so Chicago won't have Hull's rights, Detroit won't have Howe's, etc.)
-players on the reserve lists of the WHA teams have no rights assigned (assuming they weren't already NHL-owned)
-players whose birth year is 1959 or 1960 get no NHL rights, so they are eligible for the 1979 draft - this deliberately excludes Gretzky and Messier, born in 1961, but includes the WHA guys who were drafted by the NHL in 1979 - Rob Ramage, etc.
-other players who were on the WHA Oilers, Jets, Whalers, or Nordiques main rosters and have no NHL rights set have their NHL rights set to those teams
-players on the non-merging WHA teams that have no NHL rights set get their rights set semi-randomly (the weighting is different for each team) to the Jets, Oilers, Whalers, or Nordiques (that's no something that actually happened in real life, but an approximation of the way those teams picked up a lot of ex-WHAers, and also helps them a little with starting depth, because the expansion draft pool is awful)

Unfortunately, it looks like the amateur draft order is wrong in the game for the first-year WHA teams under at least some circumstances - they're drafting at the beginning, rather than the end, of the round right now. It should be changed in FHM3, I was talking to Sebastian the other day about how we can add some exceptions to override normal ordering rules in historical drafts so we can handle cases like that without resorting to hardcoding them.

demons19 · 06-23-2016, 02:23 AM

I am trying to digest all of that

So let me ask this specifically.....

I play the NY Islanders and began in their inaugural season of 72-73....now in the off-season of 77-78.....so its one full year from the 4 team merge.
And there are some players I am concerned about, maybe I need to trade because I can't ever sign them.

They are....
D Randy Carlyle drafted in 1976, he's 21 now and plays for EDM
C Bernie Federko drafted in 1976, he's 21 and plays for QUE

I also have....
C Peter Stastny who it keeps saying can't sign with a foreign team. Wondering when he becomes eligible.

***The one comment I would have as I proceed in historical mode is, I enjoy the game but I wish there was more of a warning to prepare for upcoming changes. The game tells you the changes at the start of a new season which leaves little time to prepare. For instance, I was caught when the league expanded and the 2 teams took #1 #2 in the draft. I positioned myself for #1 and bam #3. Also that same draft the player age shifted to 20 which eliminated a huge amount of talent. I had no idea that was coming....another small thing was, my favorite player of all time, Bryan Trottier should have been eligible for the 1974 draft but the game did not make him eligible because he was one week too young. July 17th, draft was July 10th. Then the next year the draft age jumped to 20 making him wait again. So he was not able to be drafted till 1976....I'm nit picking because I love seeing the old players and my goal and plan was to draft old Islanders if possible in their correct year.***

***btw, someone made a huge swing and miss on Mike Bossy who is rated 3 stars potential...ouch!.....Mike Bossy is one of the greats of all time. Trivia, after Gretzky and Mario who is the highest points per game player of all time.....Mike Bossy 1.5 points per game....he should be 5+ stars every time

I love the game

Adam B · 06-23-2016, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by demons19

I am trying to digest all of that

So let me ask this specifically.....

I play the NY Islanders and began in their inaugural season of 72-73....now in the off-season of 77-78.....so its one full year from the 4 team merge.
And there are some players I am concerned about, maybe I need to trade because I can't ever sign them.

They are....
D Randy Carlyle drafted in 1976, he's 21 now and plays for EDM
C Bernie Federko drafted in 1976, he's 21 and plays for QUE

I also have....
C Peter Stastny who it keeps saying can't sign with a foreign team. Wondering when he becomes eligible.

***The one comment I would have as I proceed in historical mode is, I enjoy the game but I wish there was more of a warning to prepare for upcoming changes. The game tells you the changes at the start of a new season which leaves little time to prepare. For instance, I was caught when the league expanded and the 2 teams took #1 #2 in the draft. I positioned myself for #1 and bam #3. Also that same draft the player age shifted to 20 which eliminated a huge amount of talent. I had no idea that was coming....another small thing was, my favorite player of all time, Bryan Trottier should have been eligible for the 1974 draft but the game did not make him eligible because he was one week too young. July 17th, draft was July 10th. Then the next year the draft age jumped to 20 making him wait again. So he was not able to be drafted till 1976....I'm nit picking because I love seeing the old players and my goal and plan was to draft old Islanders if possible in their correct year.***

***btw, someone made a huge swing and miss on Mike Bossy who is rated 3 stars potential...ouch!.....Mike Bossy is one of the greats of all time. Trivia, after Gretzky and Mario who is the highest points per game player of all time.....Mike Bossy 1.5 points per game....he should be 5+ stars every time

I love the game

Your players rights shouldn't expire with you (you should see this under Unsigned Draftees) and when the WHA blows up following the end of the season, they will become Free Agents which you should be able to sign July 1st of 1979. As for Statsny...the easiest thing to do is "EDIT" him as a player and add a second nationality of Canada or the USA and he will be able to sign with you.

Historical Mode is...Historical. I understand some frustration on being "surprised" by an expansion, but...historically it happened. It shouldn't be too much of a surprise that teams came in to existence. This does give me an idea I'm going to have to run by Jeff though to see if it's possible...

As for Bossy's potential being 3 stars, I'm not sure why it's set to that. I just quickly loaded my 1981 game, and he's on the NYI as a 4 star player, which is a good rating for him. He'll likely level up quickly if you have training points in him that should push him well above 3 stars.

JeffR · 06-23-2016, 05:13 PM

Yeah, it's unlikely, but probably just barely possible, for Bossy to be rated that low. The scouting can be off, and the development can go differently than in real life (assuming you have that option on), but 3 stars has to be at the very extreme end of the worst case for Bossy. I toned him down a little bit a while back because he was always putting up multiple 150+ point seasons in test games, but not that far.

demons19 · 06-23-2016, 06:07 PM

My only point on the historical stuff is, while I am perfectly fine with it happening as it happened, I admittedly do not have the history memorized

The average fan really does not remember when teams merged or expanded and the draft age bouncing up and down. Yet, the NHL GM surely would know all about these developments far in advance.

Not a big deal though.

Sebastian Palkowski · 06-23-2016, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by demons19

My only point on the historical stuff is, while I am perfectly fine with it happening as it happened, I admittedly do not have the history memorized

The average fan really does not remember when teams merged or expanded and the draft age bouncing up and down. Yet, the NHL GM surely would know all about these developments far in advance.

Not a big deal though.

Good point. We do a few changes with historical in FHM 3 and it should then be possible for us to show a timeline that has all events listed that will happen.

demons19 · 06-23-2016, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam B

As for Statsny...the easiest thing to do is "EDIT" him as a player and add a second nationality of Canada or the USA and he will be able to sign with you.

I did not edit him but he already as a 2nd nationality of Canadian and he still can't sign with a foreign team.
Was there a rule at the time preventing this?

Adam B · 06-23-2016, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by demons19

I did not edit him but he already as a 2nd nationality of Canadian and he still can't sign with a foreign team.
Was there a rule at the time preventing this?

Not an NHL rule, but a Soviet Rule. During the time of the Cold War, all Soviet and Eastern Block countries barred players from jumping to the NHL. Eventually players started threatening to defect, the Soviets relented a little, and then with the fall of the USSR, the floodgates more or less opened.

Duranium · 06-24-2016, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by demons19

I did not edit him but he already as a 2nd nationality of Canadian and he still can't sign with a foreign team.
Was there a rule at the time preventing this?

Just edit the contracts, not the nationalities

In my saves i avoid the iron curtain limitation by signing the eastern bloc draftees to their respective teams via the Edit option.
Once they are on a professional roster (NHL/WHA) you don´t have to care about them anymore as they sign extensions by themselves once their contracts run out.

I usually use these numbers for Eastern Bloc ELC´s from around 1974 on:

PA 4.0-5.5 - 3y / 115.000
PA 3.0-3.5 - 3y / 65.000
PA 3.0 and lower (if the current ability is below 2.0) - 3y / 35.000

Hope that makes your historical games more enjyable

06-23-2016, 12:24 AM	#1
demons19 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 145	Historical-WHA merger Can someone tell me what happens to the players I own the rights to when the WHA teams merge into the NHL? I am assuming any right I have for those players disappear correct? Can I also assume the rights to players on the WHA teams that folded remain with me? Thanks

06-23-2016, 12:33 AM	#2
demons19 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 145	I just read...........As part of the agreement, the NHL treated it more as an expansion rather than an outright merger. The former WHA clubs were stripped of most of their players and permitted to keep only two goaltenders and two skaters, and NHL teams were given the right to reclaim players from the WHA clubs without compensation. The four former WHA teams were also placed at the end of the draft order for the 1979 NHL Entry Draft, as opposed to previous NHL expansion teams, which had been placed at the front of the draft order. Is this how the game also handles this?

06-23-2016, 01:48 AM	#3
JeffR FHM Producer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Kelowna, BC Posts: 16,625	It's a bit of a mess to model, so we've had to abstract it a bit to fit the way the game works, but what happens in the game is roughly this: All of the WHA teams fold (including the 4 that merged into the NHL); if you're running one of them, you'll lose your job Four expansion teams are added to the NHL, and an expansion draft is held - if you want to take over one of them, you can do it as soon as this happens on July 1 using commissioner mode, so you can immediately pick up with the NHL version of a WHA team you were GM of All the WHA players become free agents, but some get NHL rights assigned as follows (and effectively become restricted free agents, since their rights are owned): -players whose NHL rights are already owned stay as they are (one caveat here: if your game started during the WHA years, some players won't have NHL rights assigned to the teams that owned them historically, since when the game is created only the game doesn't "know" which NHL team owned them last, just who they're with at the start date - so Chicago won't have Hull's rights, Detroit won't have Howe's, etc.) -players on the reserve lists of the WHA teams have no rights assigned (assuming they weren't already NHL-owned) -players whose birth year is 1959 or 1960 get no NHL rights, so they are eligible for the 1979 draft - this deliberately excludes Gretzky and Messier, born in 1961, but includes the WHA guys who were drafted by the NHL in 1979 - Rob Ramage, etc. -other players who were on the WHA Oilers, Jets, Whalers, or Nordiques main rosters and have no NHL rights set have their NHL rights set to those teams -players on the non-merging WHA teams that have no NHL rights set get their rights set semi-randomly (the weighting is different for each team) to the Jets, Oilers, Whalers, or Nordiques (that's no something that actually happened in real life, but an approximation of the way those teams picked up a lot of ex-WHAers, and also helps them a little with starting depth, because the expansion draft pool is awful) Unfortunately, it looks like the amateur draft order is wrong in the game for the first-year WHA teams under at least some circumstances - they're drafting at the beginning, rather than the end, of the round right now. It should be changed in FHM3, I was talking to Sebastian the other day about how we can add some exceptions to override normal ordering rules in historical drafts so we can handle cases like that without resorting to hardcoding them.

06-23-2016, 02:23 AM	#4
demons19 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 145	I am trying to digest all of that So let me ask this specifically..... I play the NY Islanders and began in their inaugural season of 72-73....now in the off-season of 77-78.....so its one full year from the 4 team merge. And there are some players I am concerned about, maybe I need to trade because I can't ever sign them. They are.... D Randy Carlyle drafted in 1976, he's 21 now and plays for EDM C Bernie Federko drafted in 1976, he's 21 and plays for QUE I also have.... C Peter Stastny who it keeps saying can't sign with a foreign team. Wondering when he becomes eligible. *The one comment I would have as I proceed in historical mode is, I enjoy the game but I wish there was more of a warning to prepare for upcoming changes. The game tells you the changes at the start of a new season which leaves little time to prepare. For instance, I was caught when the league expanded and the 2 teams took #1 #2 in the draft. I positioned myself for #1 and bam #3. Also that same draft the player age shifted to 20 which eliminated a huge amount of talent. I had no idea that was coming....another small thing was, my favorite player of all time, Bryan Trottier should have been eligible for the 1974 draft but the game did not make him eligible because he was one week too young. July 17th, draft was July 10th. Then the next year the draft age jumped to 20 making him wait again. So he was not able to be drafted till 1976....I'm nit picking because I love seeing the old players and my goal and plan was to draft old Islanders if possible in their correct year.* ***btw, someone made a huge swing and miss on Mike Bossy who is rated 3 stars potential...ouch!.....Mike Bossy is one of the greats of all time. Trivia, after Gretzky and Mario who is the highest points per game player of all time.....Mike Bossy 1.5 points per game....he should be 5+ stars every time I love the game

06-23-2016, 05:13 PM	#6
JeffR FHM Producer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Kelowna, BC Posts: 16,625	Yeah, it's unlikely, but probably just barely possible, for Bossy to be rated that low. The scouting can be off, and the development can go differently than in real life (assuming you have that option on), but 3 stars has to be at the very extreme end of the worst case for Bossy. I toned him down a little bit a while back because he was always putting up multiple 150+ point seasons in test games, but not that far.

06-23-2016, 06:07 PM	#7
demons19 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 145	My only point on the historical stuff is, while I am perfectly fine with it happening as it happened, I admittedly do not have the history memorized The average fan really does not remember when teams merged or expanded and the draft age bouncing up and down. Yet, the NHL GM surely would know all about these developments far in advance. Not a big deal though.