Home | Webstore
Latest News: OOTP 25 Available - FHM 10 Available - OOTP Go! Available

Out of the Park Baseball 25 Buy Now!

  

Go Back   OOTP Developments Forums > Prior Versions of Our Games > Earlier versions of Out of the Park Baseball > Earlier versions of OOTP: Technical Support

Earlier versions of OOTP: Technical Support Do you have a copy of OOTP Baseball 2006? Are you in need of help and assistance in running the game or do you have errors that you need help in resolving? This is your place!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-27-2006, 10:34 PM   #41
RonCo
Hall Of Famer
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 9,448
Just a confirming bit to the above. I've done quite a bit of testing the past two days to try to understand exactly how park factors influence those in other parks (in other words, to determin how league totals and park factors interact). I ran a controlled replay leauge with eight teams (two leagues of two team division) through multiple park factor scenarios like:

All park factors = 100
All League 1 factors = 125, All League 2 factors = 100
All League 1 factors = 150, All League 2 factors = 100
All League 1 factors = 75, All League 2 factors = 75

etc, etc, etc.

The resounding answer is that it works as Andy theorized above. The totals are a constant baseline that each park's factors are then applied to individually. In other words, dialing up all the park factors in one league made no difference to results in the other league. Hence park factors are essentially a localized league total mod, and can alter a league's output in strange ways if they aren't applied evenly...or at least if they aren't applied evenly and someone is actually expecting the output of their league to follow the totals.

Hope that made sense.

Here's some partial data from V6. Note that it also confirms the lack of Hits adjustment. Note, I can confimr the V5 adjusments all work, so the error was induced in v6. (Though the v5 adjustments make a huge impact at the upper/positvie ends).

I think it would be great to have a beta tester run through these same kinds of studies to prove the OOTP2006 park factors actually work as expected.

Code:
All Park Factors = 100														
League	AVG	HR	R	AB	H	2B	3B	BB	K	OBP	SLG	OPS	SB	PA
League 1	0.276	796	3501	22871	6327	954	126	2439	4263	0.347	0.434	0.781	507	25310
League 1	0.276	798	3505	22695	6275	908	147	2510	4275	0.348	0.435	0.783	490	25205
League 1	0.275	807	3604	22630	6224	956	130	2492	4342	0.347	0.436	0.783	503	25122
League 1	0.274	791	3573	22784	6249	949	150	2501	4354	0.347	0.433	0.78	511	25285
League 1	0.272	796	3507	22818	6227	949	147	2511	4467	0.346	0.432	0.778	520	25329
Average	0.275	797.6	3538.0	22759.6	6260.4	943.2	140.0	2490.6	4340.2	0.347	0.434	0.781	506.2	25250.2

League	AVG	HR	R	AB	H	2B	3B	BB	K	OBP	SLG	OPS	SB	PA
League 2	0.267	789	3440	22632	6065	963	142	2507	4250	0.342	0.428	0.77	511	25139
League 2	0.272	804	3510	22754	6207	940	166	2531	4375	0.346	0.435	0.781	492	25285
League 2	0.273	848	3572	22911	6266	1017	125	2536	4377	0.347	0.44	0.787	542	25447
League 2	0.265	820	3428	22589	5994	924	118	2430	4398	0.338	0.426	0.764	532	25019
League 2	0.269	775	3563	22843	6149	956	155	2533	4394	0.343	0.426	0.769	506	25376
Average	0.270	807.2	3502.6	22745.8	6136.2	960.0	141.2	2507.4	4358.8	0.343	0.431	0.774	516.6	25253.2


League 1 Park Factors = 125														
League	AVG	HR	R	AB	H	2B	3B	BB	K	OBP	SLG	OPS	SB	PA
League 1	0.273	927	3626	22594	6171	1175	141	2488	4326	0.346	0.461	0.807	477	25082
League 1	0.271	896	3670	22750	6183	1197	165	2591	4371	0.347	0.457	0.804	486	25341
League 1	0.273	950	3766	22856	6255	1199	152	2476	4253	0.346	0.464	0.81	494	25332
League 1	0.275	894	3739	22848	6286	1188	141	2544	4364	0.349	0.457	0.806	499	25392
League 1	0.270	856	3718	22809	6162	1273	154	2528	4324	0.343	0.452	0.795	468	25337
Average	0.273	904.6	3703.8	22771.4	6211.4	1206.4	150.6	2525.4	4327.6	0.346	0.458	0.804	484.8	25296.8
% Baseline	-0.834	13.415	4.686	0.052	-0.783	27.905	7.571	1.397	-0.290	-0.231	5.576	2.996	-4.228	0.185

League	AVG	HR	R	AB	H	2B	3B	BB	K	OBP	SLG	OPS	SB	PA
League 2	0.266	784	3378	22419	5979	898	120	2567	4224	0.343	0.422	0.765	512	24986
League 2	0.269	845	3480	22733	6130	946	144	2536	4299	0.344	0.435	0.78	573	25269
League 2	0.276	839	3633	22703	6273	1007	123	2516	4319	0.349	0.442	0.791	524	25219
League 2	0.269	769	3482	22864	6170	960	121	2534	4347	0.344	0.423	0.767	538	25398
League 2	0.271	798	3384	22743	6164	922	142	2405	4390	0.342	0.429	0.771	534	25148
Average	0.271	807.0	3471.4	22692.4	6143.2	946.6	130.0	2511.6	4315.8	0.344	0.430	0.775	536.2	25204
% Baseline	0.350	-0.025	-0.891	-0.235	0.114	-1.396	-7.932	0.168	-0.987	0.350	-0.186	0.077	3.794	-0.195


League 1 Park Factors = 150														
League	AVG	HR	R	AB	H	2B	3B	BB	K	OBP	SLG	OPS	SB	PA
League 1	0.270	1041	3961	22796	6175	1437	241	2503	4336	0.344	0.492	0.836	471	25299
League 1	0.270	1006	3923	22864	6174	1443	241	2629	4389	0.346	0.486	0.832	460	25493
League 1	0.266	1001	3788	22735	6051	1400	233	2578	4383	0.341	0.48	0.822	472	25313
League 1	0.266	988	3867	22648	6043	1395	232	2523	4409	0.342	0.48	0.822	463	25171
League 1	0.270	996	3898	22874	6180	1486	237	2593	4370	0.344	0.486	0.831	444	25467
Average	0.269	1006.4	3887.4	22783.4	6124.6	1432.2	236.8	2565.2	4377.4	0.343	0.485	0.829	462.0	25348.6
% Baseline	-2.271	26.179	9.876	0.105	-2.169	51.845	69.143	2.995	0.857	-1.037	11.705	6.095	-8.732	0.390

League	AVG	HR	R	AB	H	2B	3B	BB	K	OBP	SLG	OPS	SB	PA
League 2	0.268	835	3517	22680	6087	971	143	2500	4314	0.341	0.434	0.775	501	25180
League 2	0.266	805	3334	22473	5981	930	138	2543	4243	0.341	0.427	0.768	542	25016
League 2	0.270	829	3407	22772	6171	954	129	2410	4398	0.341	0.433	0.775	568	25182
League 2	0.272	804	3488	22753	6202	988	127	2460	4293	0.345	0.433	0.778	528	25213
League 2	0.272	808	3606	22679	6183	991	129	2546	4364	0.347	0.435	0.781	526	25225
Average	0.270	816.2	3470.4	22671.4	6124.8	966.8	133.2	2491.8	4322.4	0.343	0.432	0.775	533.0	25163.2
% Baseline	-1.785	2.332	-1.911	-0.388	-2.166	2.502	-4.857	0.048	-0.410	-1.153	-0.369	-0.717	5.294	-0.345


League 1 Park Factors = 75														
League	AVG	HR	R	AB	H	2B	3B	BB	K	OBP	SLG	OPS	SB	PA
League 1	0.277	705	3354	22987	6377	725	121	2466	4420	0.348	0.411	0.76	488	25453
League 1	0.275	715	3357	23043	6355	697	120	2495	4322	0.347	0.41	0.757	500	25538
League 1	0.276	701	3376	22843	6327	733	147	2459	4331	0.347	0.414	0.761	514	25302
League 1	0.279	697	3471	23031	6430	741	124	2451	4455	0.348	0.413	0.761	501	25482
League 1	0.275	771	3468	22997	6335	725	152	2536	4265	0.348	0.421	0.769	545	25533
Average	0.277	717.8	3405.2	22980.2	6364.8	724.2	132.8	2481.4	4358.6	0.348	0.414	0.762	509.6	25461.6
% Baseline	0.692	-10.005	-3.754	0.969	1.668	-23.219	-5.143	-0.369	0.424	0.173	-4.654	-2.484	0.672	0.837

League	AVG	HR	R	AB	H	2B	3B	BB	K	OBP	SLG	OPS	SB	PA
League 2	0.266	801	3411	22732	6058	931	146	2433	4331	0.338	0.426	0.764	516	25165
League 2	0.271	780	3388	22807	6199	913	143	2579	4448	0.347	0.427	0.773	539	25386
League 2	0.275	821	3647	22733	6259	1002	152	2497	4364	0.348	0.441	0.789	538	25230
League 2	0.265	775	3305	22457	5957	941	142	2475	4218	0.339	0.423	0.762	540	24932
League 2	0.266	760	3390	22620	6037	948	142	2493	4356	0.341	0.422	0.763	518	25113
Average	0.269	787.4	3428.2	22669.8	6102.0	947.0	145.0	2495.4	4343.4	0.343	0.428	0.770	530.2	25165.2
% Baseline	-0.224	-2.453	-2.124	-0.334	-0.557	-1.354	2.691	-0.479	-0.353	-0.175	-0.742	-0.517	2.633	-0.348

Last edited by RonCo; 04-27-2006 at 10:47 PM.
RonCo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2006, 01:18 PM   #42
mrbill
All Star Reserve
 
mrbill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: LA, CA
Posts: 982
Not really sure I even agree that is how it should work. I'm assuming when you said "two leagues", that you set one .lg file in an AL/NL kind of situation, and not two separate .lg folders.

What about interleague play? What if all the AL parks are more offense heavy than the NL parks, why should two equal ability players, one in each league, produce the same stats? I'm pretty sure you agree with those sentiments as well, just throwing those questions out there to make sure.

I'd hate to have to calculate the average park factors in the AL/NL/other leagues as yet another modifier on performance when comparing two players in two different leagues.

The onus should be on the editor of park factors to ensure it balances to 100, or at least, consider all teams in the major leagues when balancing park factors, not just isolating each AL/NL type league and balancing locally, because interleague play happens and trades between leagues happen.
__________________
UBL - Best Online League Evar! - Los Angeles Dodgers: 25 seasons, 13 NL West titles, 4 WC, 8 NL Titles, 5-time Champs
LBB v5 league (retired) - Detroit Tigers/Commish: 19 seasons, 18 straight AL Central titles, 2006, 2008, 2014, 2015 Champs!
NGBL v6 league (dead) - Texas Rangers: 10 seasons, 4 AL South titles, 2 Wild Cards, one WS app

Last edited by mrbill; 04-28-2006 at 01:22 PM.
mrbill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2006, 01:32 PM   #43
jeheinz72
Hall Of Famer
 
jeheinz72's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Fresno, CA
Posts: 2,163
Great findings guys, and as was sad, thankfully it's just AVG
__________________
Join The Dugout!
jeheinz72 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2006, 01:45 PM   #44
mrbill
All Star Reserve
 
mrbill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: LA, CA
Posts: 982
Where'd the thread go that displayed how the split park effects (LH/RH AVG/HR) affect pitchers' ability based on their hand as much as it affected batters?

That is, when park effects are 125 HR LHB and 75 HR RHB, you'd expect a LHP vs RHB matchup to give you 75% of the HR output of that same matchup in an all 100s park.

What you actually get is 100% of the HR output because the LHP is equally handicapped in avoiding HR by the 125 LHB as the hitter is handicapped by the 75 HR RHB.

Seeing jeheinz's comment reminded me that AVG being broken was only the tip of the park effects iceberg.
__________________
UBL - Best Online League Evar! - Los Angeles Dodgers: 25 seasons, 13 NL West titles, 4 WC, 8 NL Titles, 5-time Champs
LBB v5 league (retired) - Detroit Tigers/Commish: 19 seasons, 18 straight AL Central titles, 2006, 2008, 2014, 2015 Champs!
NGBL v6 league (dead) - Texas Rangers: 10 seasons, 4 AL South titles, 2 Wild Cards, one WS app
mrbill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2006, 03:25 PM   #45
RonCo
Hall Of Famer
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 9,448
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrbill
Not really sure I even agree that is how it should work. I'm assuming when you said "two leagues", that you set one .lg file in an AL/NL kind of situation, and not two separate .lg folders.

What about interleague play? What if all the AL parks are more offense heavy than the NL parks, why should two equal ability players, one in each league, produce the same stats? I'm pretty sure you agree with those sentiments as well, just throwing those questions out there to make sure.

I'd hate to have to calculate the average park factors in the AL/NL/other leagues as yet another modifier on performance when comparing two players in two different leagues.

The onus should be on the editor of park factors to ensure it balances to 100, or at least, consider all teams in the major leagues when balancing park factors, not just isolating each AL/NL type league and balancing locally, because interleague play happens and trades between leagues happen.

Really accurate, real life park factors are hard to calculate for just the reason you're discissing here. BBREF has a tutorial on how they do it. But remember, I don't think we're talking about the same thing. Park factors in real life are a result of the players who play in the parks, and the parks themselves. They are calculated based on runs scored by all collection of players in all parks.

OOTP park factors are not that. I don't think they are, anyway. OOTP park factors are modifiers on how often a specific player will achieve a specific kind of hit in a specific at bat. As such, they are an attempt to model the physical impact of the park only. In order to get an OOTP league's park factors, I think you would have to run the data through BBRefs, formulas...

I think all the above is true, anyway.

It is up to the league editors to ensure their parks add up to/average out to 100 for what ever player pool that exists. I'm not suggesting how anything _should_work here, I'm just saying that essentially, park factors in OOTP today act in a local fashion, and do not affect the other league in any way.

So, in your example, the NL player who moves to an AL with more offensive parks will see their stats adjust appropriately.

What I'm saying, though, is that the park factors interact with the league totals as a direct modifier...as localized league totals modifications. So, if you set your league totals to a baseline, and then modify every park up 10% or down 10% for a specific factor, it results in stats that look like a fundamental league totals change. So, if your league is allowing wanton changes in the league's parks (like most seem to), then you are essentially changing the league totals.

The specific change that occurs due to the localized change is different in v5 than in v6. (as you discovered in your study)

V6 doesn't budge in hits, seems to track for doubles (meaning a 125 park setting results in 25% more doubles), and seems to be about half-strength for HR. V5 tracks directly for each park factor change, but changing multiple items (HR and hits, for example) results in a multiplication of the effect on HRs or doubles or triples.

Whatever, the park effect is localized to the individual park, which lends some credence to my expectation that Marks is realy trying to model park dimensions by these factors...note, park dimensions in real parks can and do result in different ballpark factors over the years. Let's not confuse those. I'm speaking only of the mechanics of OOTP at present.

Of course, it could be that I'm just over-analyzing what you're trying to say, too.
RonCo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2006, 03:35 PM   #46
mrbill
All Star Reserve
 
mrbill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: LA, CA
Posts: 982
Haha, yeah, you might be overanalyzing it a bit. I think park factors are definitely a physical representation that doesn't take into account particular hitter styles in particular parks, as covered in the OOTPBB threads on hitter types (pull, spray, normal) and how those aren't really meaningful at this time.

But, as far as the AL/NL thing. Let me try to play out an example:

I have a park thats all 125 park ratings. The average AL park is 140 park ratings.

I trade a player who has an .800 OPS in my park to an NL team.

The NL team park is all 75 park ratings, but the average NL park is 90 park ratings.

My non-OOTP logic says this guys OPS will drop like a rock moving from a hitter's park to pitcher's park.

What I'm asking, is that does your 2-league study actually suggest this batter will continue to put up .800 OPS, because his previous team and new team both have park effects 15 below their respective league averages?
__________________
UBL - Best Online League Evar! - Los Angeles Dodgers: 25 seasons, 13 NL West titles, 4 WC, 8 NL Titles, 5-time Champs
LBB v5 league (retired) - Detroit Tigers/Commish: 19 seasons, 18 straight AL Central titles, 2006, 2008, 2014, 2015 Champs!
NGBL v6 league (dead) - Texas Rangers: 10 seasons, 4 AL South titles, 2 Wild Cards, one WS app
mrbill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2006, 04:50 PM   #47
RonCo
Hall Of Famer
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 9,448
The study says he will drop like a rock, just as you would expect.

All my study really does is confirm the process works like Andy suggested it did. --each park as a stand-alone entity unto itself that creates it's statistical output as a unique adjustment to league the basic league totals.
RonCo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2006, 04:59 PM   #48
mrbill
All Star Reserve
 
mrbill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: LA, CA
Posts: 982
Oh, ok. I didn't really understand your study, then, on my first pass.

I get it now, all you're saying is that you can't expect your league to produce stats in line with your league totals if the average park effect across your major leagues is not 100.

But, this has nothing to do with AL/NL kind of leagues and being treated differently within the same major league system.

I think the term "League" was just confusing me.
__________________
UBL - Best Online League Evar! - Los Angeles Dodgers: 25 seasons, 13 NL West titles, 4 WC, 8 NL Titles, 5-time Champs
LBB v5 league (retired) - Detroit Tigers/Commish: 19 seasons, 18 straight AL Central titles, 2006, 2008, 2014, 2015 Champs!
NGBL v6 league (dead) - Texas Rangers: 10 seasons, 4 AL South titles, 2 Wild Cards, one WS app
mrbill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2006, 05:31 PM   #49
RonCo
Hall Of Famer
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 9,448
Yes.

My reasoning for looking at it as I did was that if the park factors were subservient to the League Totals, then the totals would stay the same over the entire league, and that offense that got kicked out of one park would be absorbed by another (or visa versa). That's not the case. So League totals are the foundation, and park factors make changes from that point. It's as you would expect...but I've come to not expect things to work as I expect.

Have I confused you enough for one day?
RonCo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2006, 12:53 PM   #50
RonCo
Hall Of Famer
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 9,448
Just for kicks and grins, I also confirmed the common knowledge that OOTP park dimensions are not meaningful in statistically significant any way in either V5 or V6.
RonCo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:31 PM.

 

Major League and Minor League Baseball trademarks and copyrights are used with permission of Major League Baseball. Visit MLB.com and MiLB.com.

Officially Licensed Product – MLB Players, Inc.

Out of the Park Baseball is a registered trademark of Out of the Park Developments GmbH & Co. KG

Google Play is a trademark of Google Inc.

Apple, iPhone, iPod touch and iPad are trademarks of Apple Inc., registered in the U.S. and other countries.

COPYRIGHT © 2023 OUT OF THE PARK DEVELOPMENTS. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

 

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright © 2020 Out of the Park Developments