Theory on Relievers?

[halfbutt]

I am not saying moving starters to the bull pen is bush league, as your examples prove. I myself have a righty and a lefty starter in the pen as long relievers.

I am saying when you have eight pitchers in your bullpen and six are starters, IMO, that is kind of exploiting the game.

I know this is not real baseball, but it is supposed to be a sim. Now, there may come a day yet where an MLB team has eleven of the thirteen pitchers on their active roster that are starters, all of them horses, but that day has yet to come.

Just sayin.

[macacks]

Originally Posted by halfbutt

I am not saying moving starters to the bull pen is bush league, as your examples prove. I myself have a righty and a lefty starter in the pen as long relievers.

I am saying when you have eight pitchers in your bullpen and six are starters, IMO, that is kind of exploiting the game.

I know this is not real baseball, but it is supposed to be a sim. Now, there may come a day yet where an MLB team has eleven of the thirteen pitchers on their active roster that are starters, all of them horses, but that day has yet to come.

Just sayin.

All of those pitchers in the bullpen were starters at one time.

[halfbutt]

Originally Posted by macacks

All of those pitchers in the bullpen were starters at one time.

Yes, yes, but I sense you are just rationalizing the practise of stacking your bullpen with high-end starters. Its just not realistic.

What is the point of even differentiating between starters and relievers and closers in that case?

I think it is an exploit because it circumvents having to manage pitcher fatigue. No team in history had five pitchers in the pen with that kind of stamina. In PT terms, 86 stamina average.

IMHO, there should be a limit on how many starter cards can be used out of the bullpen.

[macacks]

Originally Posted by halfbutt

Yes, yes, but I sense you are just rationalizing the practise of stacking your bullpen with high-end starters. Its just not realistic.

What is the point of even differentiating between starters and relievers and closers in that case?

I think it is an exploit because it circumvents having to manage pitcher fatigue. No team in history had five pitchers in the pen with that kind of stamina. In PT terms, 86 stamina average.

IMHO, there should be a limit on how many starter cards can be used out of the bullpen.

Of course I am.

Starters are just better pitchers than relievers.

I believe they changed the stamina for starters in the pen this year. try this. Take the starter you have in your bullpen *when he has some fatigue) and switch him to an SP from RP. You will see his fatigue change drastically.
As well, the relievers have much better ratings.
So, there has been steps taken that are related to your concerns.

[ScudDawg]

Originally Posted by halfbutt

Yes, yes, but I sense you are just rationalizing the practise of stacking your bullpen with high-end starters. Its just not realistic.

What is the point of even differentiating between starters and relievers and closers in that case?

I think it is an exploit because it circumvents having to manage pitcher fatigue. No team in history had five pitchers in the pen with that kind of stamina. In PT terms, 86 stamina average.

IMHO, there should be a limit on how many starter cards can be used out of the bullpen.

I think that is a good idea to limit to maybe 7 starters per active roster or something around that. That and maybe take away their stuff bonus when they go to the pen.

[halfbutt]

Originally Posted by macacks

Of course I am.

Starters are just better pitchers than relievers.

I believe they changed the stamina for starters in the pen this year. try this. Take the starter you have in your bullpen *when he has some fatigue) and switch him to an SP from RP. You will see his fatigue change drastically.
As well, the relievers have much better ratings.
So, there has been steps taken that are related to your concerns.

That's great that steps have been taken. I don't see it making much difference in my division/league, as many of the top teams have bullpens stacked with high end starters with 85-90 stamina.

It's fine. All games have their exploits. I'm just disappointed. I can't compete with these teams.

[Catchthedamnball]

Originally Posted by halfbutt

That's great that steps have been taken. I don't see it making much difference in my division/league, as many of the top teams have bullpens stacked with high end starters with 85-90 stamina.

It's fine. All games have their exploits. I'm just disappointed. I can't compete with these teams.

I think you're getting hung up on the stamina rating when looking at converted starters. It doesn't do much for you other than tell you that this reliever will more regularly go multiple innings each appearance. The big takeaway is these converted starters won't be able to pitch on back-to-back days as much.

As for the perceived futility of competing with teams stocked with elite starters (presumably without spending), that requires a longer answer for another day...

[ubernoob]

Originally Posted by halfbutt

That's great that steps have been taken. I don't see it making much difference in my division/league, as many of the top teams have bullpens stacked with high end starters with 85-90 stamina.

It's fine. All games have their exploits. I'm just disappointed. I can't compete with these teams.

You aren't meant to compete with them then, at least not yet.

It's literally the second season, my bronze league wasn't full. On the one team I spent money on, they're full of SP -> RP. Mainly because those are the best pitchers I got for completing the collections.

On my 2 teams that are free, I won't be about to touch that main team for a long time. It's just how it is, I'm focusing on tournaments for those anyways - you get better rewards that way.

Right now there is no league setup that will work, it will take a few seasons for things to normalize as promotion/relegation works it's way. Just take this time to bank up points and improve your team any way you can, be it if you have a theme team or just best cards you can use. Or favorite players.

This mode is supposed to be fun, not frustrating.

[halfbutt]

Originally Posted by Catchthedamnball

I think you're getting hung up on the stamina rating when looking at converted starters. It doesn't do much for you other than tell you that this reliever will more regularly go multiple innings each appearance. The big takeaway is these converted starters won't be able to pitch on back-to-back days as much.

As for the perceived futility of competing with teams stocked with elite starters (presumably without spending), that requires a longer answer for another day...

Yes, I appreciate your reply, which was very well put.

Now that that season is over and the10 teams that won 100 or more (many more) games have moved, on, maybe I will be able to get some more objective numbers on my pitching staff. Hard to evaluate when everyone is getting decimated by stacked teams.

[chazzycat]

Dealing with stacked teams might just be the new normal. The live collections are within reach for pretty much all players, and are a huge source of talent and/or PP.

[halfbutt]

Originally Posted by chazzycat

Dealing with stacked teams might just be the new normal. The live collections are within reach for pretty much all players, and are a huge source of talent and/or PP.

The teams with live collections SE reward players are not the ones I'm talking about. I mean the stacked teams that have, you know, deGrom, Verlander, Johnson, Blyleven, Lolich and Smoltz in the bullpen. You get the idea.

[chazzycat]

Oh...I see. If you are in bronze right now, that means you are in the same class with all the whales who started day 1. So hopefully that should get better in time as the leagues settle.

[halfbutt]

Originally Posted by chazzycat

Oh...I see. If you are in bronze right now, that means you are in the same class with all the whales who started day 1. So hopefully that should get better in time as the leagues settle.

Indeed. A bunch moved up last season. We'll see how many whales are left.

[Orion]

Originally Posted by Dogberry99

I think my question is not being completely understood. The ability to throw strikes will naturally allow pitchers to last longer in a game. What I want to know more about is the relationship between the stamina rating, fatigue recovery, and role. I care more about a pitcher's usage from game to game to game than his usage in any one game.

If it is correct that those players deemed by the game to be starters are treated differently when use in relief that those deemed to be relievers, then I want to arrive at a better understanding of how this works. This is especially pressing due to a surprisingly high number of pitchers where their assigned in game role is either unclear or inconsistent.

As I indicated earlier, yeah SP's can't pitch back to back. Go peruse the Dev's commentary if you won't take my word for it.

[halfbutt]

So I am still seeing the majority of winning teams in the leagues I wind up in have 9-13 starters. It seems that this is the current meta.

I understand converted starters are not able to pitch on consecutive days, and I guess that is a positive, although pitching on consecutive days too much seems to be what leads to my relievers getting torched when tired.

Again, I'm not trying to complain here. I don't mind being in the lower half of the standings and I'm sure things will eventually settle into more competitive balance. I am enjoying slowly building up my team.

I guess I am just kind of asking for input from the more veteran players. Is this a new legitimate strategic trend, and how do people feel about it in general?

Thanks guys. Happy All Star Break!

[chazzycat]

Using SP in relief may still be a decent strategy, but it's certainly nothing new and has actually been toned down from last year. The inability to pitch back-to-back seems to cut down their ceiling of IP from about 140 to 100 from my experience so far. So you're paying SP prices to pitch half the innings. Not exactly amazing value for most players. For whales, maybe? I think using regular relievers is totally fine this year for the most part. I still like SP for stoppers & long men, but won't be filling my entire staff with SP like last year.

[halfbutt]

Originally Posted by chazzycat

I still like SP for stoppers & long men, but won't be filling my entire staff with SP like last year.

Ah. Gotcha. So it was a thing last year?

That explains it somewhat. Obviously some whale holdovers still incorporating that strat.

Thanks for the reply!