Another UK Newbie

[BBGiovanni]

Oh, and a separate reply about bullpen management. First, keep in mind that the default OOTP setup mimics modern (since 2000 or so) baseball, with really specialized multiple roles for pitchers. If you play a game in the 1870s you'll have 2 or 3 pitchers on the roster But anyway...

If you are managing a whole season, keep in mind that although you want to win a particular game, you also do not want to lose 4 out of 6 games in a week. OOTP in particular disfavors using relievers every day, even though people like Bruce Bochy do that sometimes. (I live in San Francisco so there will be a lot of Giants comparisons, sorry )

If you have 5 starters, as others say, you want them to generally throw 6 innings. Sometimes, as in real life, it really helps if they can go longer. If you have a Kershaw/Bumgarner/Syndergaard type guy that has thrown a shutout with 70 pitches into the 7th or 8th inning, you are saving your bullpen for the disaster you may find tomorrow. If the entire bullpen had to pitch in an extra inning game the night before, real managers will often tell that day's starter, or the starter just knows on his own, he shouldn't be looking into the dugout for help in the first 6 innings of the game. He needs to pick up his teammates. This is also known as the eternal challenge of playing baseball in Colorado for 3-4 days straight.

This of course isn't a perfect science. Your ace will get shelled in the 1st inning sometimes (my hero Bumgarner is noted for this). It might rain in the 3rd. The 5th starter might pitch a shutout (what a treat that is!). In general you want these guys to pitch as much as they can, as well as they can, because otherwise in a month your bullpen will be hurt, tired, and wrecked (see, again, San Francisco). I even commit heresy sometimes... if a starter gets shelled in the first couple innings, and is trailing by 5-6 runs or more... I let him "wear it". He is going to pitch as many innings as he possibly can, because I figure I can have a fresher bullpen tomorrow when (hopefully) my offense will show up.

And, as noted above, if you are trying to win an important game, you may decide to pull a starter very early if he has thrown a lot of pitches and given up a few runs. In a playoff or world series game, you might have an extra starter you want to use there. In general though, that is the job of the LONG RELIEF pitcher. Nowadays, unfortunately, this is the worst pitcher you have, and his chief attribute is stamina. It's a good job for a guy who is a mediocre starting pitcher (if, for example, in OOTP 2016 you change Yusmeiro Petit's role from starter to reliever he ends up very highly rated. He won many many games for the SF Giants by coming into a game down by 3 or 4 runs and keeping the game close enough for the team to come back over the course of the game). If you have a non-terrible pitcher in that role, it's a bit of a luxury but can pay big dividends. This guy will also be your SPOT STARTER. In real-life, that means if the scheduled starter comes down with food poisoning the night before his start, this guy goes out and tries to "eat" as many innings as he can to save the rest of the bullpen. In OOTP it often comes when a game is in rain delay after only an inning or two is played. I also like to use this guy, if rested, in extra inning games to save my bullpen. He can also be used in a MOP-UP role, which is the happy circumstance when you are up by more than 4 or 5 runs in the late innings. Save your setup and closer for tomorrow. Calling a pitcher a "long relief-mop-up guy" is basically, and sadly, an insult, because it means he can't get or hold any of these other jobs. In practical fact, people like Guillermo Mota and Petit can make 5-10 games per season winnable for you because they keep a game sort of close. If he "mops up" a lopsided win, your fresh bullpen may get you another win in tomorrow's game.

Let's skip to the other end of the bench. There you will find your CLOSER. In the 60s and 70s this guy would be called the "fireman" and would come in to pitch the last 3 or so innings of a game. Rich Gossage and Rollie Fingers are the hall of famers that did this the best. Nowadays, because of the success of Dennis Eckersley and later Mariano Rivera, managers use this guy to pitch the 9th inning when ahead by 3 or fewer runs. I am not a fan of this near-dogmatic strategy... what if the 7-9 hitters are coming up for the other side and you are 3 runs ahead? Why waste your best guy with the bases empty rather than to get out of a bases-loaded jam in the 8th inning? Anyway, OOTP modern mimics real baseball, so you will see the best pitcher on the other team come in in the 9th, usually to start the inning with the bases empty (which of course is the optimal situation for ANY pitcher).

One spot down from him on the bullpen bench you will find the SETUP pitcher. In modern baseball this means he will pitch the 8th inning, because he is the setup pitcher. Does that seem like circular logic? It is. In practice this guy is either not quite as good as the closer, or a young pitcher not quite ready to be a closer (Mariano Rivera was a deadly setup man in 1994 for the Yankees before they realized they didn't need John Wetteland any more). I think this role was basically invented by Tony LaRussa with the Athletics in the 80s, who liked to use the lefty Rick Honeycutt for an inning before righty Dennis Eckersley. Now everyone thinks it's the only way to use a bullpen. Sigh. In OOTP I like to use this guy on days the closer doesn't pitch, so one of them is always fresh. It's nice if he has a slightly better stamina than the closer for OOTP purposes.

So, whom do you find on the bench in between the LONG MAN and the SETUP and CLOSER? This is the MIDDLE RELIEF corps. How do you know who they are? They are the guys who are better than the LONG MAN and worse than the SETUP and CLOSER. OOTP now lets you use some "more often" than others, or pick a lefty as a "lefty specialist" who only pitches to lefthanded batters (be careful to check if he's actually good at it, and if the batter is a "paradox lefty" who hits better against lefties!). In modern MLB, these guys are expected to collectively pitch the 7th inning. Sometimes they'll fill in part of the 6th, or the 8th. Once in a while in real baseball you will hear discussion of "Johnny Wholestaff" making a start... that means that a regular starter is unavailable for that day, so the long man will be starting the game and the rest of the bench will have to fill in (because often the long man/spot starter can only go 5 or so innings).

So, that's what OOTP thinks makes up a pitching staff, which mirrors what 99% of MLB-affiliated baseball people think too.

Final note on bullpen upgrades: look carefully at what you need in a bullpen when you get new guys for it. The current Yankees, for example, have the pure luxury of 3 excellent closers. The Royals had this the last couple of years too. But, you needn't improve your bullpen with the best closer in baseball. If you can upgrade a spot significantly, you can dump the worst reliever, and the whole unit will be better off. If you can find a bad starter, he might be a pretty good long man, and a guy with worse stamina can move up into "middle relief" where you can use him for only an inning or only against righty or lefty batters, etc. If you have a good closer, adding a good setup guy can significantly improve the middle relief part of the bench as they all move down a spot. So, try in general to think of the bullpen, and the whole pitching staff, as a unit and not as "I need a closer" or "I need a lefty specialist". Look at what you have and make as much lemonade as you can from the lemons before you go out shopping for limes and mangoes

[monkeystyxx]

Some of this will have been covered but I'm gutted that I missed the chance to impart wisdom and did it anyway . So with apologies for repeating stuff that's been said:

Pitching roles...
Starting pitchers:
Generally have high stamina, as they're expected to go at least 5 innings, usually 6 or 7. The more tired they get (and the more often the batters get to see them in a game) the less effective they become.
Because batters get to see them up to 3 or even 4 times in a game, they need a variety of good pitches (at the very least 3, usually 4 or more) they can reliably throw. A starter with 3 or fewer good pitches runs the risk of becoming predictable and easy to hit later into games so he'll need to be replaced sooner.

To record a 'Win' (pointless stat Starters use to inflate their ego and salaries) as a starting pitcher, you need to complete five innings, which is why you'll rarely see a starter pulled before then unless he's getting shelled.

Most teams will carry 5 on the roster at a time, with a 6th borderline starter in the bullpen who can spot start or come in at short notice.

Closers:
Generally have two excellent pitches, often a third decent pitch to go with it. These are the best guys in your bullpen, as stated previously. They'll almost always have the best Stuff in the bullpen (more on that later). They're only normally used in the 9th inning, when your team is leading by 3 or less. That qualifies them for a 'Save', which is a pointless stat closers use to inflate their ego and salaries.

Setup men:
The Setup men are hard to categorise and in some teams are falling out of favour with the role completely. Generally they're the 2nd and 3rd best pitchers in the bullpen, and their main job is to hold the lead in the 7th and 8th innings. They can be thought of as 'reserve closers' I guess, in that what makes a good closer also makes a good setup man, the closer is just a bit better. The pointless stat that inflates their egos and salaries is "Holds". Which basically translates to "number of times you didn't screw things up", though most setup guys will take a few saves during the year too if the closer is tired after a few back to back appearances.

Middle relievers:
A step down from the closers, these are the guys you turn to when your starter starts giving up too many runs in the 5th or 6th inning of a game (or 4th if he's having a really bad day). The strength of these guys kinda dictates the strength of your bullpen - most clubs can manage 3 decent late-game pitchers, it's the quality of the bread and butter middle relievers that really separates teams.

Long relievers:
These are guys who you call on when everything's gone wrong for your starter in the 2nd inning and you're 5-0 down. You need to get your starter out of there, he's embarrassing (or injuring) himself but you don't want to use your entire bullpen in one day just to get through the rest of the game. In steps the long reliever. Generally, a "spare" starter, or a guy who used to be a starter but isn't good enough any more. These are pitchers who theoretically could start, they've got a variety of pitches and decent stamina, you just have 5 guys who're better. Their main job is to come in and try to rescue games when the starter's having a bad day early on or get injured, and try to deliver the game to the bullpen in at the very least no worse a state than he found it. These guys also see use when you're losing by a pathetic margin and don't feel like wasting your usual bullpen arms when you're pretty sure you're going to lose anyway. Your long reliever can pitch the 5th, 6th and 7th and see how it goes.

Long reliever is also a good place to put that guy you can't get rid of but sucks too much to trust in important situations (see: Morales, Franklin). If a LR comes into a game, it's generally because things aren't going well (or there was an injury).

Specialist:
Lefty specialists (righty specialists are rare, because the majority of batters/people in general are right handed) are pitchers that are called on for their talents in getting left handed batters out. Baseball wisdom generally holds that when a pitcher faces a batter of the same handedness, the pitcher has the advantage. Lefty specialists are therefore sometimes used to get the really good left handed hitters out, because they don't have that natural advantage. Of course, there are some lefties that actually bat better against lefties than righties. And then there are switch hitters. Or lefty pitchers that suck against lefties for some reason. But the general rule is, lefty vs lefty = pitchers' advantage.

You might also hear the term LOOGY (Lefty One-Out Guy), it's a bit derogatory because it implies they don't have any other use, which is obviously not true. You don't take up an entire roster spot for a guy who pitches exclusively to one batter per game. But sometimes, in important situations late on in games when a lefty is up to bat, you'll see a left handed pitcher come out to face him. And a surprising number of times, that'll be the only batter he faces, even if he gets him out with his first pitch.

Types of pitcher...
There are, generally speaking, two broad "types" of pitcher (three if you count 'groundballer' as a type). These generally fall in line with the three main ways to get a batter out (strikeout, flyout, groundout).

Power pitchers are guys who rely on fastballs and velocity to get the job done. Their philosophy is to not let the batter hit the ball at all, that way he can't do any damage. Strikeouts are generally the least efficient way to get an out (because the absolute minimum number of pitches thrown to achieve one is three and three-pitch strikeouts are rare), but they are the safest (because if you don't hit the ball at all, you can't do much with it!). The risk is that if they do hit the ball, it's likely to go far because it's likely to have been thrown very hard.

Finesse pitchers don't rely on a huge amount of power, but that's not to say they can't throw hard.They'll still throw fastballs, almost all pitchers do, but their main aim is to pitch the ball to places where the opposing hitter can't possibly hit it well enough for it to do any damage. You'll hear the phrase "painting the corners" - this means the pitcher is trying to pitch right into the corners of the strikezone. It's much, much easier to hit a ball in the middle of the zone, so the further away from the middle you can get it while still being a strike, the better. Pitchers who can do this consistently don't need to strike out a lot of batters, because the balls they hit will most often be popups or fly balls that are easily caught. The risks here are obvious - a bad defence or a talented batter will result in hits, runs and home runs. Strikeout pitchers don't have to worry about that, you can't mess up a strikeout by having bad defence. Worth noting here that not all "balls" are mistakes. A lot of finesse pitchers rely on tricking the batter into thinking the ball is going to be a strike, but in fact it's a curveball or slider and moves out of the strike zone at the last minute. The idea is to get the batter to swing at it anyway (thinking it's going into the strike zone) and therefore getting a swing and miss, which counts as a strike. Some pitchers are better at this than others (Franciscio Liriano used to be amazing at it, nowadays he just walks a lot of batters ).

Groundball pitchers excel in getting batters to hit the ball along the ground. This, obviously, makes it harder for them to do much damage in terms of home runs, and with a good defence makes it easier to get them out by fielding the ball and throwing to first base.

As far as ratings go...
Stuff is a measure of how varied and unpredictable he is with his pitches. Closers absolutely must have this, and it's obviously useful for all pitchers. It directly affects the number of strikeouts a pitcher can get. Power pitchers will tend to be highest here. A power pitcher that doesn't have good stuff is probably going to be a liability.
Great stuff is necessary to be a good power pitcher.

Also though, you'll generally find relievers have better stuff than starters of the same overall quality. This is because relievers in the game get a bonus to their Stuff rating to simulate the fact that they're not seen all that often. As I mentioned earlier, a starting pitcher might face the same batter 3 or 4 times in a game. A reliever will only usually see him once, if at all. Moreover, a starting pitcher will face the same batter in multiple games per season (if they're in the same league or division), while he often never sees the same reliever more than twice or so (unless they're in the same division). This is also, incidentally, why former starters can prolong their careers as relief pitchers; the boost to their Stuff makes up for their otherwise declining ratings.

Movement is a measure of how much he can make the ball 'move' in the air. A dead-straight fastball is really easy to hit hard because you can get the "sweet spot" right on the ball, one that 'moves' from left to right or up and down as it travels through the air isn't so easy to hit long distances. Some pitches, like the Cutter and Sinker, rely on this trait, but even regular fastballs can have a fair bit of movement. The more movement, the fewer home runs. In OOTP, this only effects *additional* movement other than the movement expected by the pitch type. For example, a low movement stat won't make a pitcher who relies on a Sinker, Slider or Curveball any less effective than one who relies on a fastball, all else being equal. It's expected that he can still curve a curveball or slide a slider as dictated by his individual pitch stats. Movement just effects how easy it is for the batter to hit these pitches hard.
Generally groundballers have great movement, which is how they're able to dictate where the batter is able to hit the ball (ie, on the ground, because the ball comes off the bottom half of the bat due to its late downward movement - it arrives lower than the hitter is expecting it, in other words).

Control is a measure of how accurately he can throw his pitches and hit his targets. A pitcher with low control will struggle with this and end up walking a lot of batters (meaning they get to go to first base without having to hit the ball, which is obviously bad). Some pitchers with really excellent stuff can deal with having low control (Yankees closer Aroldis Chapman, for instance), because they don't give up many hits to go along with the walks. In fact, it's generally accepted that the harder you throw, the less accurate you are. You have to be really talented to do both. The worst case scenario is a guy that can't throw hard, and also struggles with control (such as poor Francisco Liriano ), because then you're giving up lots of hits AND walks, which is trouble.
Finesse pitchers generally have great control, because they rely on it to get the ball going where they want it.

A (very) few words on stats

(Edit: Ok, more words on stats than originally intended). As you've already discovered, there's a stat for just about everything in baseball. If you want to, you can find out who has the highest strikeout percentage in night games in June. It's a bit silly. A lot of them are far too technical for this kind of post (and I'm in no way pretending I understand all of them myself!), but there are some common ones to learn, and some to avoid looking too closely at. I'll just stick to the pitching stats because this is a very pitching-centric thread so far.

Also, note than any examples of what's good or bad is based on modern day MLB stats for the average player. Historical data varies a lot. Also take into account the type of player. While 10 K/9 is fantastic for a finesse pitcher with moderate stuff, it's only "pretty good" for an elite strikeout-based closer.

Basics
G - Games appeared in in total, including relief appearances.

GS - Games Started

IP - Innings Pitched. Generally speaking, don't make any hasty decisions as to whether someone is having a good year or not before they reach 100IP (for starting pitchers, 30-40 for relievers).

ERA - Earned Run Average (per nine innings). Don't pay too much attention to this, as it's not always the pitcher's fault if this is high. If you've got a bad defence, or he's just been unlucky, this can be high through no fault of his own. Generally speaking though, below 2.00 is great, around 3.00 is average, above 4.00 is bad, above 6.00 there's something wrong. ERA will almost always be higher for relievers, because giving up 1 run gives them a 9.00 ERA for that game.

BABIP - Batting Average on Balls In Play. Sounds complicated, but it's not. It's a useful tool for 'sanity checking' other stats. This is simply the measure of what happened when the batter hit the ball. It's kinda like a batter's Batting Average, but only counts balls put into play (ie, balls that were actually hit and weren't foul, not strikeouts). .300 is average. If this number is significantly higher than .300, it can often mean the pitcher has just been unlucky, or let down by his defence. It means that a higher number than normal of balls put into play resulted in hits.

If this number is significantly below .300, it can indicate the pitcher has been lucky and/or helped out by the defence, because more balls than normal that were put in play resulted in an out. Therefore a pitcher that appears to have had a terrible year but has a .423 BABIP may not be that terrible, he might just have a sucky defence behind him. Likewise, a fantastic pitcher with a .185 BABIP might not be all that fantastic next year.

Useful stats
K/9 - Number of strikeouts they get per nine innings. Below 6 is bad. Above 8 is good. Above 10 is pretty awesome. As with all these "per nine" stats, sample size is important. A few bad innings can skew this numbers a lot when they've only pitched 10-20 innings, especially for relievers (a reliever will only normally pitch one inning per game, so giving up one walk gives them 9.00 BB/9 for that outing).

BB/9 - Number of walks they give up per nine innings. You want this to be low, below 2.5. Above 3.5 is bad.

HR/9 - You can probably guess this one. Home Runs given up per 9 innings. This is the hardest of the three to quantify,. because the batter has as much say as the pitcher, if not more, in whether that bad pitch he threw ends up as a home run or a triple or double (or even just a single if the batter is a fat *******). Generally though, under about 0.6 is good, above 1.2 is bad. Above 1.5 is very bad.

WHIP - Walks and Hits per Inning Pitched. This is a very useful stat, much moreso than ERA, because it tells you things that were directly influenced by the pitcher. How many hits or walks did he give up per inning. The fact that it's per inning, not per 9, also makes it much more useful for relief pitchers. Below 1.0 is godlike, below 1.25 is good. Above 1.5 is bad. Above 2.0 is god-awful.

Stats to avoid
W - Wins.
SV - Saves
H - Holds

All completely meaningless and have almost nothing to do with the pitcher. More useful if you must use these type of stat are their opposites, L (losses) and BS (Blown Saves). Holds doesn't have an opposite.

All Wins means is that the team were winning when he left the field (after the fifth inning for starters) and nobody screwed it up.

Saves is even worse. It just means the guy managed to get through a whole inning without losing the lead. He literally did his job. Woo.

Holds is the absolute worst, because this guy didn't even have the pressure of the 9th inning win/lose situation. He literally came into the game in the lead, and didn't lose it.

At least Losses tells you whose fault it was, pitching-wise, that the game was lost. Blown Saves tells you that your pitcher had a lead at the end of the game and blew it, which can be worth knowing. But even then, in most cases you can't entirely blame the pitcher.

Quickfire stats!
A few that are too complex to go into in any depth if you're new to baseball, but are good to know:

ERA+ is ERA adjusted for the league average. 100 is average, above 100 is above average, below 100 is below average. It's about as useful as ERA is, but easier to read.

FIP is Fielding Independent Pitching. Basically an attempt at stripping out all the stuff that isn't the pitchers fault from the ERA stat. Same scale as ERA (with below 2 being great, above 5 being awful, 4 being average). You can also subtract FIP from ERA for a measure of generally how good your defence are (the bigger the difference, the worse your defence). Some like it, some think it's convoluted BS.

A few for the batters, too:

PA - Plate Appearances. The number of times you've stood in the batter's box during a game and faced a pitcher. The only time this doesn't count is if you're in the batters box, a baserunner is caught stealing or picked off for the third out. In that case, you're still up to bat in your team's next inning.

AB - At Bats. Three strikes and you're out - those three strikes are your At Bat. If it's your turn to bat, you're said to be "at bat" (more commonly just 'batting' or 'at the plate'). All At Bats are Plate Appearances, but not all Plate Appearances are At Bats. A walk, or getting hit by a pitch, counts as a Plate Appearance, but not an At Bat. Also, a sacrifice fly (hitting the ball into the air with less than 2 outs, so a fielder catches it (meaning you're out), but someone scores a run) does not count as an At Bat, but does count as a Plate Appearance. Basically all batting stats are based on At Bats, not Plate Appearances (the obvious exception being OBP... eh, sort of. Close enough for now).

Don't worry too much about the PA/AB thing. It'll make sense eventually.

AVG - Batting Average. The most basic stat in baseball. How many times you scored a hit vs. how many at bats you had. Above .300 is good, below .250 is generally bad, although power hitters (guys who hit a lot of home runs) will often strike out more as a result of trying too hard, and therefore will have lower averages.

OBP - On Base Percentage. The number of times the player got on base in some way (either via a hit, or a walk, hit by a pitch, etc) as a percentage of their plate appearances. This will always be higher than AVG because AVG is included in it. How much higher than AVG it is is a measure of how patient the hitter is. If they swing at everything, they're unlikely to walk much and therefore OBP will be similar to AVG. If they're patient and are good at recognising where a pitch is going to end up, they'll walk more and have a higher OBP.

SLG - Slugging Percentage (not a percentage in any way!). A bit more complicated, related to how powerful the player is. Above .550 means they take a lot of bases, usually via home runs. Below .400 means they really don't. It's not quite that simple though - for instance, Chris Davis has hit 22 home runs this season but only has a .495 SLG, whereas David Ortiz has also hit 22 home runs but has a .682 SLG. The main difference is that Ortiz also has a batting average over .300, ie, he has far more hits in total than Davis does, so all the singles and occasional doubles add to his total. If Davis doesn't hit it out of the park, he probably usually strikes out instead, so he has far fewer singles to add up.
Therefore SLG should be taken as more of a measure of "overall quality hits" rather than purely power.

OPS - On Base Percentage plus Slugging Percentage. This is simply OBP and SLG added together, so it counts walks and stuff as well as quality of hits. To be perfectly honest, when you start adding numbers I only just get the gist of together like this I lose track of what's good and what isn't, so I ignore this and go straight to...

OPS+ - On Base Percentage Plus Slugging, adjusted for the league average. Same deal as with ERA+, with 100 being average. The higher than number, the better they are compared to the average MLB player.

S/CS - Stealing/Caught Stealing. A steal is when a base runner runs from one base to another without the ball being hit (usually they start running while the pitcher is winding up, before he actually throws the pitch). Caught Stealing is when the ball is thrown to the base he's heading to and he's tagged before he can safely get there (usually because the catcher has caught the ball from the batter and thrown to the base instantly). It doesn't count as a stolen base if the batter hits the ball or walks as a result of the pitch, because then the runner would be forced to go to the next base anyway so hasn't gained anything. A "pick off" is when the pitcher - instead of actually pitching - quickly turns and throws to the base the base runner started from, forcing the runner to dive back to the base. If he makes it, all's well. If he doesn't, he's been "picked off". Kinda embarrassing. Being picked off is not the same as being caught stealing. Also you can't steal first base as the batter. It's not allowed (though I'm sure Starling Marte and Billy Hamilton could if they tried hard enough).

Note that the fielding stat "PO" isn't picked off, it's Put Outs (how many times a particular fielder has actually made the catch/tagged the runner to get an out).


I think that's enough typing for now, hope you found at least some of it helpful.

[Rob Morris]

The replies on here have been magnificent thank you all so much. I underestimated how important pitching is.

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by monkeystyxx

Some of this will have been covered but I'm gutted that I missed the chance to impart wisdom and did it anyway . So with apologies for repeating stuff that's been said:
. . .

I think that's enough typing for now, hope you found at least some of it helpful.

monkeystyxx, this was excellent.

EDIT: Just a quick note on SLG (as opposed to AVG). SLG counts each base safely reached during an AB, whereas AVG counts only once, for any hit, be it a single, double, triple, or home run.

Say one player has 10 ABs and has 3 singles. His AVG is .300. Now, another guy also has three hits, but his have been a single (one base), a double (two bases), and a triple (three bases) in 10 ABs. This second guy also has a .300 AVG but seems to be a much more powerful hitter than the first guy. That is why SLG is used; the first player's SLG is the same as his AVG, .300 (=(1 + 1 + 1)/10), but the second player's SLG is a lofty .600 (=(1 + 2 + 3)/10).

If this continues, the first guy will be known as a light-hitting batter while the second guy will be called a power hitter. [By the way, a home run is credited for 4 bases in SLG.]

Below are the top 10 leaders in career AVG and SLG so that you can see the difference.