Rule V returns retaining contract

ronnieh · 08-11-2019, 01:19 PM

This is our online league's first season on OOTP 20. We are seeing something we have not seen before. We are in season, almost at the all star break. The past couple of sims there have been three rule V returns. The player was released and correctly returned to the original team on their DFA. However these players still have the league minimum contract. That leaves the GM with the choice of putting the player on their 40 man or releasing them and paying off the rest of the contract.

It has not worked like that in the past. Previously the player would be returned with a minor league contract and could be put directly into the minor leagues from DFA.

Any feedback on this? New functionality? Bug?

b10wick · 08-11-2019, 04:41 PM

Noticed this in our online league as well.

RchW · 08-11-2019, 05:08 PM

Returned rule 5 players will all have options left by definition, so the MLB minimum contract, which they will keep, should have no effect on optioning to the minor leagues. Are you saying these player are out of options? Do you have different OLL roster rules which may be causing this?

ronnieh · 08-11-2019, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

Returned rule 5 players will all have options left by definition, so the MLB minimum contract, which they will keep, should have no effect on optioning to the minor leagues. Are you saying these player are out of options? Do you have different OLL roster rules which may be causing this?

No. Options are not affected. I am saying they have a major league contract. You cannot put a player from DFA to the minors if they have a major league contract unless they pass through waivers first. In previous versions the player would be returned to the original team with a minor league contract (or whatever the contract was before being acquired in RV).

RchW · 08-11-2019, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronnieh

No. Options are not affected. I am saying they have a major league contract. You cannot put a player from DFA to the minors if they have a major league contract unless they pass through waivers first. In previous versions the player would be returned to the original team with a minor league contract (or whatever the contract was before being acquired in RV).

Rule 5 players must have MLB contracts because they are on the 25 man roster of the team that drafted them. Any other contract would be wrong and/or a bug anyway.This must be a vXX bug because returning players and getting players returned has worked well in previous versions. A work around could be simply to put them on the 25 man roster then immediately demote them, but I can see that it could be problematic with OLL. That should not be necessary though. Bug.

bobum · 08-11-2019, 09:41 PM

So then - lets say I have 14ish spots open on my 40 man roster - I could then, in theory - target my biggest rival, Rule V draft every guy possible from him and then, after they get a major league minimum contract - return them to him and he has to either put them on his 40 man now since they have a ML contract and now pay them, or waive/DFA them? wow that could be devious... am I right?

ronnieh · 08-12-2019, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobum

So then - lets say I have 14ish spots open on my 40 man roster - I could then, in theory - target my biggest rival, Rule V draft every guy possible from him and then, after they get a major league minimum contract - return them to him and he has to either put them on his 40 man now since they have a ML contract and now pay them, or waive/DFA them? wow that could be devious... am I right?

That's the way I read it. Worse even, I have not tested it out yet but it follows that you could go another level of evil and sign the guy to a fat contract and then release him.

statfreak · 08-12-2019, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronnieh

This is our online league's first season on OOTP 20. We are seeing something we have not seen before. We are in season, almost at the all star break. The past couple of sims there have been three rule V returns. The player was released and correctly returned to the original team on their DFA. However these players still have the league minimum contract. That leaves the GM with the choice of putting the player on their 40 man or releasing them and paying off the rest of the contract.

It has not worked like that in the past. Previously the player would be returned with a minor league contract and could be put directly into the minor leagues from DFA.

Any feedback on this? New functionality? Bug?

The commissioner should be able to edit the contracts back to minor league contracts until Markus, et al fix the issue.

Bluenoser · 08-12-2019, 06:58 PM

Did these players have ML Contracts when they were taken in the rule 5 draft?

ronnieh · 08-12-2019, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

Did these players have ML Contracts when they were taken in the rule 5 draft?

No. They were on minor league contracts when drafted in RV. They did not get major league contracts until opening day.

qcbandits · 08-12-2019, 10:30 PM

They should have already cleared waivers beforehand and then should be able to be sent directly to the minors. Did the returning team run the player through waivers before returning?

bobum · 08-12-2019, 11:32 PM

Nope - guy was in AAA playing just fine - but Rule V eligible - gets drafted - about 3 weeks into the season - the other team cuts him - and I get him back now with a league minimum contract and can't demote him back to AAA because he has to be on the 40 - so to get him to AAA, I have to waive and DFA - and pay him for the rest of the season...which is the part that REALLY sucks...I can't afford a bunch of these returns with league minimum contracts... I run pretty close to the vest... I don't recall this happening in v19.

koohead · 08-13-2019, 11:57 AM

Have you reported this "officially"? http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...d.php?t=299988
Just to make sure this gets to Tech Support and tracked properly.

ronnieh · 08-13-2019, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by koohead

Have you reported this "officially"? http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...d.php?t=299988
Just to make sure this gets to Tech Support and tracked properly.

Thank you for that link! I'm still kind of a noob. I did report the bug but apparently without the league files it will be ignored. I will upload those tonight.

qcbandits · 08-13-2019, 08:45 PM

Part of your problem stems from the returning team not running the player through waivers. They have to do it because before he's returned to you, the rest of the league gets the opportunity to claim him on waivers and pick up all the rule v stips. Seems you're bypassing a huge part of the rules and then blaming the game for not understanding what you did

ronnieh · 08-13-2019, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by qcbandits

Part of your problem stems from the returning team not running the player through waivers. They have to do it because before he's returned to you, the rest of the league gets the opportunity to claim him on waivers and pick up all the rule v stips. Seems you're bypassing a huge part of the rules and then blaming the game for not understanding what you did

Not sure where that rule is. MLB? I have not heard of it before. Regardless, passing a player through waivers does not remove his major league contract so not sure how that applies here.

BirdWatcher · 08-13-2019, 09:26 PM

Here is one explanation of how the Rule 5 Draft works:
https://www.baseballamerica.com/stor...-rule-5-draft/

I'm not sure how much OOTP follows all the details of this process, but yes, as qcbandits indicated, if a team which picked a player in the Rule 5 draft wishes to remove them from their active roster they must place them on waivers and then any other team can assume the responsibilities as outlined by the Rule 5 process for that player. If unclaimed, he can be offered back to his original team prior to the Rule 5 draft, who would then compensate the team who drafted that player half of the amount that the drafting team had originally been required to pay to the player's original team.
(The original team can reject him and just keep all the money and then he is free and clear a member of the drafting team with no Rule 5 strings attached.)

Again, I can't speak to the details of how this is handled in OOTP, but from what I can see qcbandits is not wrong about how this works in the MLB. (Per the OOTP manual, the fee that teams must pay for drafting a player in the Rule 5 draft is not modeled in OOTP.)

EDIT: Per OOTP manual: "In OOTP, Rule 5 draft picks are never offered back to their original franchise. You simply have to obey the roster rules defined below."

And the roster rules listed below are as follows: " Rule 5 Draft Roster Rules
There are a number of roster rules relating to Rule 5 drafts:

A team that wants to select a player in the Rule 5 draft must have at least one spot open on its secondary roster.
A player selected in the Rule 5 draft must remain on the selecting team's active roster or disabled list for the entire season.
A player who was drafted in the Rule 5 draft can be waived. If he is claimed, then the player must remain on the claiming team's active roster for the remainder of the season.
A player selected in the Rule 5 draft can be traded. The team that receives the player must keep the player on its active roster for the remainder of the season.
A player selected in the Rule 5 draft must spend 90 days on the active roster. This rule prevents teams from picking players and then dumping them on the disabled list for an entire season to avoid using an active roster spot. This rule can extend into the following season if necessary."

So according to the manual, it appears that the way the Rule 5 process is set up in OOTP does not allow for the move you described above "The player was released and correctly returned to the original team on their DFA." This is neither exactly the correct process in MLB or OOTP. So makes sense that it didn't work correctly for you.

ronnieh · 08-13-2019, 09:41 PM

I did google MBL RV rules, and true, in MLB you have to pass them through waivers.

I just ran tests in solo leagues in OOTP 19 and in XX. In both versions I started brand new standard leagues, simmed to RV, picked up a guy, simmed until 1 day into the regular season and then released him. In 19 his contract reverted to a minor league contract. In XX he retained his major league contract. I do not know if that is an intentional functional change or a bug. But it is new.

In OOTP. When a RV draftee is released he immediately shows up on the original teams DFA. It has worked that way in every version at least since I started on 12 and it I just confirmed it is working that way now.

Now that I have it recreated I'll see if I can get league files uploaded with the bug and we'll see what the devs say.

BirdWatcher · 08-13-2019, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronnieh

In XX he retained his major league contract. I do not know if that is an intentional functional change or a bug. But it is new.

In OOTP. When a RV draftee is released he immediately shows up on the original teams DFA.y version at least since I started on 12 and it I just confirmed it is working that way now.

Now that I have it recreated I'll see if I can get league files uploaded with the bug and we'll see what the devs say.

Perhaps then it was a bug in previous versions that has now been fixed in OOTP 20.
I looked back at previous manuals, including the one for OOTP 12, and it had the same wording as the most recent manual.

ronnieh · 08-13-2019, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BirdWatcher

Perhaps then it was a bug in previous versions that has now been fixed in OOTP 20.
I looked back at previous manuals, including the one for OOTP 12, and it had the same wording as the most recent manual.

Indeed. That is what I was saying. Not sure if it is new functionality or a bug. But it changed.

08-11-2019, 01:19 PM	#1
ronnieh Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 44	Rule V returns retaining contract This is our online league's first season on OOTP 20. We are seeing something we have not seen before. We are in season, almost at the all star break. The past couple of sims there have been three rule V returns. The player was released and correctly returned to the original team on their DFA. However these players still have the league minimum contract. That leaves the GM with the choice of putting the player on their 40 man or releasing them and paying off the rest of the contract. It has not worked like that in the past. Previously the player would be returned with a minor league contract and could be put directly into the minor leagues from DFA. Any feedback on this? New functionality? Bug?

08-11-2019, 05:08 PM	#3
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: The big smoke Posts: 15,628	Returned rule 5 players will all have options left by definition, so the MLB minimum contract, which they will keep, should have no effect on optioning to the minor leagues. Are you saying these player are out of options? Do you have different OLL roster rules which may be causing this? __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

08-13-2019, 11:57 AM	#13
koohead Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 3,137	Have you reported this "officially"? http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...d.php?t=299988 Just to make sure this gets to Tech Support and tracked properly. __________________ GM - New Jersey Bears of the NPBL;

08-13-2019, 09:26 PM	#17
BirdWatcher Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2018 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 4,262	Here is one explanation of how the Rule 5 Draft works: https://www.baseballamerica.com/stor...-rule-5-draft/ I'm not sure how much OOTP follows all the details of this process, but yes, as qcbandits indicated, if a team which picked a player in the Rule 5 draft wishes to remove them from their active roster they must place them on waivers and then any other team can assume the responsibilities as outlined by the Rule 5 process for that player. If unclaimed, he can be offered back to his original team prior to the Rule 5 draft, who would then compensate the team who drafted that player half of the amount that the drafting team had originally been required to pay to the player's original team. (The original team can reject him and just keep all the money and then he is free and clear a member of the drafting team with no Rule 5 strings attached.) Again, I can't speak to the details of how this is handled in OOTP, but from what I can see qcbandits is not wrong about how this works in the MLB. (Per the OOTP manual, the fee that teams must pay for drafting a player in the Rule 5 draft is not modeled in OOTP.) EDIT: Per OOTP manual: "In OOTP, Rule 5 draft picks are never offered back to their original franchise. You simply have to obey the roster rules defined below." And the roster rules listed below are as follows: " Rule 5 Draft Roster Rules There are a number of roster rules relating to Rule 5 drafts: A team that wants to select a player in the Rule 5 draft must have at least one spot open on its secondary roster. A player selected in the Rule 5 draft must remain on the selecting team's active roster or disabled list for the entire season. A player who was drafted in the Rule 5 draft can be waived. If he is claimed, then the player must remain on the claiming team's active roster for the remainder of the season. A player selected in the Rule 5 draft can be traded. The team that receives the player must keep the player on its active roster for the remainder of the season. A player selected in the Rule 5 draft must spend 90 days on the active roster. This rule prevents teams from picking players and then dumping them on the disabled list for an entire season to avoid using an active roster spot. This rule can extend into the following season if necessary." So according to the manual, it appears that the way the Rule 5 process is set up in OOTP does not allow for the move you described above "The player was released and correctly returned to the original team on their DFA." This is neither exactly the correct process in MLB or OOTP. So makes sense that it didn't work correctly for you. Last edited by BirdWatcher; 08-13-2019 at 09:34 PM. Reason: additional information from OOTP 20 manual.

08-11-2019, 04:41 PM	#2
b10wick Major Leagues Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 317	Noticed this in our online league as well.

08-11-2019, 09:41 PM	#6
bobum Bat Boy Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 10	So then - lets say I have 14ish spots open on my 40 man roster - I could then, in theory - target my biggest rival, Rule V draft every guy possible from him and then, after they get a major league minimum contract - return them to him and he has to either put them on his 40 man now since they have a ML contract and now pay them, or waive/DFA them? wow that could be devious... am I right?

08-12-2019, 06:58 PM	#9
Bluenoser Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In The Moment Posts: 13,680	Did these players have ML Contracts when they were taken in the rule 5 draft?

08-12-2019, 10:30 PM	#11
qcbandits Banned Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: South Carolina Posts: 1,441 Infractions: 0/4 (4)	They should have already cleared waivers beforehand and then should be able to be sent directly to the minors. Did the returning team run the player through waivers before returning?

08-12-2019, 11:32 PM	#12
bobum Bat Boy Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 10	Nope - guy was in AAA playing just fine - but Rule V eligible - gets drafted - about 3 weeks into the season - the other team cuts him - and I get him back now with a league minimum contract and can't demote him back to AAA because he has to be on the 40 - so to get him to AAA, I have to waive and DFA - and pay him for the rest of the season...which is the part that REALLY sucks...I can't afford a bunch of these returns with league minimum contracts... I run pretty close to the vest... I don't recall this happening in v19.

08-13-2019, 08:45 PM	#15
qcbandits Banned Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: South Carolina Posts: 1,441 Infractions: 0/4 (4)	Part of your problem stems from the returning team not running the player through waivers. They have to do it because before he's returned to you, the rest of the league gets the opportunity to claim him on waivers and pick up all the rule v stips. Seems you're bypassing a huge part of the rules and then blaming the game for not understanding what you did

08-13-2019, 09:41 PM	#18
ronnieh Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 44	I did google MBL RV rules, and true, in MLB you have to pass them through waivers. I just ran tests in solo leagues in OOTP 19 and in XX. In both versions I started brand new standard leagues, simmed to RV, picked up a guy, simmed until 1 day into the regular season and then released him. In 19 his contract reverted to a minor league contract. In XX he retained his major league contract. I do not know if that is an intentional functional change or a bug. But it is new. In OOTP. When a RV draftee is released he immediately shows up on the original teams DFA. It has worked that way in every version at least since I started on 12 and it I just confirmed it is working that way now. Now that I have it recreated I'll see if I can get league files uploaded with the bug and we'll see what the devs say.