Why is closer coming in for 7th inning?

majesty95 · 08-29-2019, 02:49 PM

I've seen this a few times now. My closer comes in during or to start the 7th inning and then another reliever comes in later in the save situation. My closer is set to 9th inning and does not have high leverage indicated. I also have a stopper for 7th or later and two setup men with high leverage designations. In the most recent scenario, my closer came in for the 7th and my stopper closed the game. This is not at all what I want...

NoOne · 08-29-2019, 04:37 PM

if not mistaken, a stopper and a closer at the same time can have some issues, unless they cleaned that up.

if this is mostly occuring when the stopper is tired (or possibly lack of play in closer, but still due to ai thinking he's a backup stopper, not because a closer is lacking work), i'd wager it's because you have both these roles enabled.

this is from a few years ago... or at least 2. but, if oyu see the obvious pattern, use one or the other, but not both. or, try it as a secondary role... or put someone beside the closer as a secondary role, so that when he's tired it doesn't default to closer etc etc... play with the logic of what is available.

majesty95 · 08-29-2019, 06:03 PM

Makes sense although hopefully they fix that. I think its reasonable to have a stopper like Mariano Rivera with a closer like John Wetteland. My stopper and one of the setup men are both lefties and my closer is a righty. I'm thinking, based on the last game, that the righty setup was tired and they wanted a righty so took the closer. I get it and maybe I'm happy they did. Just kind of odd when you see it

NoOne · 08-30-2019, 01:01 PM

it was a mash-up of 2 era's roles due to popular demand.

like i said, i could be wrong. definitely look for indicators that would line up with that thought. i mean if the stopper isn't ever tired or often not tired when the closer is used as a backup, then that's not the reason. or, if oyu set a secondary backup stopper, and it still supercedes it, etc etc... that'd be something i bet they'd want reported.

joefromchicago · 08-31-2019, 08:55 PM

Stoppers and closers are incompatible. Stoppers represent the way relievers were used before approximately 1980, when managers would bring in their best reliever in the seventh inning or later and when the game was on the line (which could mean that the score was tied or the team was behind by a run). Closers represent the way that relievers are used now. They're brought into the game in the ninth inning (or maybe in the eighth) and only when it's a save situation.

Really, the game shouldn't allow the user to have both closers and stoppers enabled. The old stopper role is now divided up among middle relievers, set-up men, and closers. There's no place for a stopper.

Matt Arnold · 09-02-2019, 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

Stoppers and closers are incompatible. Stoppers represent the way relievers were used before approximately 1980, when managers would bring in their best reliever in the seventh inning or later and when the game was on the line (which could mean that the score was tied or the team was behind by a run). Closers represent the way that relievers are used now. They're brought into the game in the ninth inning (or maybe in the eighth) and only when it's a save situation.

Really, the game shouldn't allow the user to have both closers and stoppers enabled. The old stopper role is now divided up among middle relievers, set-up men, and closers. There's no place for a stopper.

I will say mixing the two could lead to weird results, as the original poster noted, since internally the game actually treats them in a similar way, so sometimes one will sub for the other when you don't expect it.

As for whether you want to use both, we opened it up a year or two ago because people wanted to try it out, or were in modern times but wanted to use a stopper instead of a closer. But yes, strictly speaking, it doesn't really make sense to use both - the secondary "high leverage" option is probably the closest modern day equivalent to the old-time stopper, where a guy will come in early in a tough spot, and may stay until the end of the game or may hand it off to the more traditional closer.

JasonC23 · 09-02-2019, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

I will say mixing the two could lead to weird results, as the original poster noted, since internally the game actually treats them in a similar way, so sometimes one will sub for the other when you don't expect it.

As for whether you want to use both, we opened it up a year or two ago because people wanted to try it out, or were in modern times but wanted to use a stopper instead of a closer. But yes, strictly speaking, it doesn't really make sense to use both - the secondary "high leverage" option is probably the closest modern day equivalent to the old-time stopper, where a guy will come in early in a tough spot, and may stay until the end of the game or may hand it off to the more traditional closer.

As a data point/anecdotal evidence, I've designated 3 relievers on my Perfect Team as Stoppers, 7th Inning or Later, secondary role as High Leverage, and another reliever as Closer, 9th Inning. The Closer does get the majority of save opportunities, but it's a lot less than he could get because he also pitches less than the other 3, who have more appearances and more innings pitched, and who "vulture" save opportunities on a fairly regular basis. Is this the expected AI behavior when mixing the roles? Also, if one does designate more than one reliever as a Stopper, how does the AI choose between them?

This has been a great discussion so far. Thanks to everyone who has participated!

Matt Arnold · 09-02-2019, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JasonC23

As a data point/anecdotal evidence, I've designated 3 relievers on my Perfect Team as Stoppers, 7th Inning or Later, secondary role as High Leverage, and another reliever as Closer, 9th Inning. The Closer does get the majority of save opportunities, but it's a lot less than he could get because he also pitches less than the other 3, who have more appearances and more innings pitched, and who "vulture" save opportunities on a fairly regular basis. Is this the expected AI behavior when mixing the roles? Also, if one does designate more than one reliever as a Stopper, how does the AI choose between them?

This has been a great discussion so far. Thanks to everyone who has participated!

Yeah, basically. If a stopper comes in, he'll try to stay in to finish the game if he has the stamina. If he gets tired, then he might pass it off to the closer. If you don't want them vulturing saves, then if they get set as MR or setup guys with high leverage 2nd, then they'll give way to your closer for the 9th.

NoOne · 09-02-2019, 04:52 PM

wouldn't be wise or best, but you could use pitch counts to try to push more saves on the closer. probably hurt your team just as often, though. might just cause another well-rested stopper to come in, lol... and not help at all.

08-29-2019, 02:49 PM	#1
majesty95 All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 1,755	Why is closer coming in for 7th inning? I've seen this a few times now. My closer comes in during or to start the 7th inning and then another reliever comes in later in the save situation. My closer is set to 9th inning and does not have high leverage indicated. I also have a stopper for 7th or later and two setup men with high leverage designations. In the most recent scenario, my closer came in for the 7th and my stopper closed the game. This is not at all what I want... __________________ College Football Sim League \| '95 Problems Online League

08-29-2019, 04:37 PM	#2
NoOne Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 7,167	if not mistaken, a stopper and a closer at the same time can have some issues, unless they cleaned that up. if this is mostly occuring when the stopper is tired (or possibly lack of play in closer, but still due to ai thinking he's a backup stopper, not because a closer is lacking work), i'd wager it's because you have both these roles enabled. this is from a few years ago... or at least 2. but, if oyu see the obvious pattern, use one or the other, but not both. or, try it as a secondary role... or put someone beside the closer as a secondary role, so that when he's tired it doesn't default to closer etc etc... play with the logic of what is available. Last edited by NoOne; 08-29-2019 at 04:38 PM.

08-29-2019, 06:03 PM	#3
majesty95 All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 1,755	Makes sense although hopefully they fix that. I think its reasonable to have a stopper like Mariano Rivera with a closer like John Wetteland. My stopper and one of the setup men are both lefties and my closer is a righty. I'm thinking, based on the last game, that the righty setup was tired and they wanted a righty so took the closer. I get it and maybe I'm happy they did. Just kind of odd when you see it __________________ College Football Sim League \| '95 Problems Online League

08-31-2019, 08:55 PM	#5
joefromchicago Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 3,630	Stoppers and closers are incompatible. Stoppers represent the way relievers were used before approximately 1980, when managers would bring in their best reliever in the seventh inning or later and when the game was on the line (which could mean that the score was tied or the team was behind by a run). Closers represent the way that relievers are used now. They're brought into the game in the ninth inning (or maybe in the eighth) and only when it's a save situation. Really, the game shouldn't allow the user to have both closers and stoppers enabled. The old stopper role is now divided up among middle relievers, set-up men, and closers. There's no place for a stopper. __________________ American-Ethnic (and Canadian) Namesets Historical Minor League Schedules 1870s City/Team Nickname Randomizers "It's Usually Sunny in Philadelphia" weather mod

08-30-2019, 01:01 PM	#4
NoOne Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 7,167	it was a mash-up of 2 era's roles due to popular demand. like i said, i could be wrong. definitely look for indicators that would line up with that thought. i mean if the stopper isn't ever tired or often not tired when the closer is used as a backup, then that's not the reason. or, if oyu set a secondary backup stopper, and it still supercedes it, etc etc... that'd be something i bet they'd want reported.

09-02-2019, 04:52 PM	#9
NoOne Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 7,167	wouldn't be wise or best, but you could use pitch counts to try to push more saves on the closer. probably hurt your team just as often, though. might just cause another well-rested stopper to come in, lol... and not help at all.