Time Warp HOF Ballot 1982

jdw · 06-02-2008, 04:13 PM

This is the annual Time Warp Baseball League Hall of Fame thread.

New to the ballot is the All-1960s second baseman and a five time All Pro whose career was tragically cut short with a career ending injury at the age of 33 while still one of the best pitchers in the game.

Have at it.

John

jdw · 06-02-2008, 04:13 PM

1936 Initial Ballot Results, 1937 Results, 1938 Results, 1939 Results, 1940 Results, 1941 Results, 1942 Results, 1943 Results, 1944 Results, 1945 Results, 1946 Results, 1947 Results, 1948 Results, 1949 Results, 1950 Results, 1951 Results, 1952 Results, 1953 Results, 1954 Results, 1955 Results, 1956 Results, 1957 Results, 1958 Results, 1959 Results, 1960 Results (lost in board crash), 1961 Results, 1962 Results, 1963 Results, 1964 Results, 1965 Results, 1966 Results, 1967 Results, 1968 Results, 1969 Results, 1970 Results, 1971 Results, 1972 Results, 1973 Results, 1974 Results, 1975 Results, 1976 Results, 1977 Results, 1978 Results, 1979 Results, 1980 Results, 1981 Results

All players who received at least 5% of votes on the last ballot were retained for this ballot. I also added players who became eligible for the ballot in 1981 (retired after 1975 season).

All players not receiving 5% of votes on this ballot will be removed. Also, all players who have been retired for 20 years fall off this ballot if not elected.

Vote for as many or as few as you want. Max votes are 10.

PLEASE NOTE:
Players who lost service time to the war are denoted with: WWII

Notes:

OPS+ and ERA+ are listed for all players now. 100 is considered league average. The higher the # the better the player. This lets you see how they did in relation to the players of their generation while also letting you compare their dominance of the league to players from different eras.

All Pros are for the Post War era only (1946-). There are traditionally voted on by a poll of the league's GM's and regular participants (1946-48, 1950-62, 1969-) or by the Sporting News (1949, 1963-68, All Decade & Centenial Teams). The year end teams are named for each league and feature one player for each field position along with 4-5 starting pitchers (depending on the rotation size of the era) and one relief pitcher.

The stats in "New Cato" are a work in progess with certain years missing.

jdw · 06-02-2008, 04:13 PM

Here's all HOF'er OPS+ for reference:

189 - 2B Woody Woodson
186 - LF Ray Kress
168 - CF Jed Williams
166 - CF Dark Horse Allen
163 - 2B Jason Tedford
159 - SS Whitey Kohse
158 - LF Oscar Vancini
157 - LF Leo Santiago
156 - 1B Charlton Brown
152 - 2B Jed Burke
152 - 1B Patrick Seifried
152 - 1B Arnie Stewart
152 - 1B Shigeo Oh
149 - 2B Genaro Nunez
148 - C Whiskey Allen
148 - 1B Ken Chaucer
147 - 1B Lonny Arrendale
146 - CF Peaches Badeau
146 - 3B Dave Lemmings
145 - SS Blake Crocitto
145 - LF Paul Lett
142 - C Hershel Lee
141 - CF 1B Ben Baum
141 - RF Tee Carver
141 - LF Ogden Wing
141 - RF Asa Booker
141 - RF/CF Andrew Vamos
140 - CF Bud Breckenridge
140 - RF John Falise
140 - CF Ray Brown
140 - RF Scott Podlasek
140 - 3B Dale Lamberty
140 - 2B Bobby Martin
139 - LF Dewey Mickelsen
139 - SS/2B Tom Howard
138 - RF Tyrell Chestnut
138 - LF Wolter Tjeenk-Willink
138 - C John Degal
138 - CF Rudel Dietrich
137 - 2B Kid Fite
137 - LF Will Miller
137 - 3B Steven Bussell
137 - 1B Ted McMurray
137 - OF Jim Alan
136 - C Harry Cohan
136 - 1B Jared Jarry
135 - C/1B John Klehammer
135 - OF Jimmy Ditty
134 - 3B Carl Kahle
134 - 2B Alan Liao Jr.
133 - 2B Slap Hertzog
133 - SS Flaky Arsenault
133 - CF Roy Hobbs
133 - CF Dave Arkless
133 - 2B Matt Perly
133 - CF Mark Silcox
132 - SS Adolf Greisbach
132 - LF John Schmieder
132 - 1B Cookie Parrish
131 - C Chuck Rauch
131 - RF Nick Graves
131 - 2B Hans Habermehl
131 - RF William Perry
130 - C Sunny Davie
129 - C Tom Turley
129 - RF George Ward
129 - CF Ping Hung
129 - C Herman Dunkel
129 - RF Moonlight Graham
128 - SS Morris Lutske
127 - CF Campbell Ditty
127 - 3B Troy Kinnear
127 - SS Mike Fellner
126 - LF Glendon Zegri
125 - 2B Herm Vardaman
125 - 2B Mike Kreitenberg
124 - SS Levi Walls
124 - SS Kenneth Whitt
123 - SS Dale Reneau
123 - 3B Alan Liao, Sr.
122 - CF Sam Kass
122 - 1B Sal Rossi
121 - 1B Quenton Misisca
120 - 2B/CF Ervin Skjerly
118 - 3B August Kahle
114 - 2B/SS Jonny Perly
114 - CF Jon Minzey
110 - 3B David McAuliffe
110 - SS Ted Stuart
104 - SS Dennis Ward
102 - C Harry Finley

jdw · 06-02-2008, 04:13 PM

Here's all HOF'er OPS+ by position for reference:

148 - C Whiskey Allen
142 - C Hershel Lee
138 - C John Degal
136 - C Harry Cohan
135 - C/1B John Klehammer
131 - C Chuck Rauch
130 - C Sunny Davie
129 - C Tom Turley
129 - C Herman Dunkel
102 - C Harry Finley

156 - 1B Charlton Brown
152 - 1B Patrick Seifried
152 - 1B Arnie Stewart
152 - 1B Shigeo Oh
148 - 1B Ken Chaucer
147 - 1B Lonny Arrendale
137 - 1B Ted McMurray
136 - 1B Jared Jarry
135 - C/1B John Klehammer
132 - 1B Cookie Parrish
122 - 1B Sal Rossi
121 - 1B Quenton Misisca

189 - 2B Woody Woodson
163 - 2B Jason Tedford
152 - 2B Jed Burke
149 - 2B Genaro Nunez
140 - 2B Bobby Martin
139 - SS/2B Tom Howard
137 - 2B Kid Fite
134 - 2B Alan Liao Jr.
133 - 2B Slap Hertzog
133 - 2B Matt Perly
131 - 2B Hans Habermehl
125 - 2B Herm Vardaman
125 - 2B Mike Kreitenberg
120 - 2B/CF Ervin Skjerly
114 - 2B/SS Jonny Perly

159 - SS Whitey Kohse
145 - SS Blake Crocitto
139 - SS/2B Tom Howard
133 - SS Flaky Arsenault
132 - SS Adolf Greisbach
128 - SS Morris Lutske
127 - SS Mike Fellner
124 - SS Levi Walls
124 - SS Kenneth Whitt
123 - SS Dale Reneau
114 - 2B/SS Jonny Perly
110 - SS Ted Stuart
104 - SS Dennis Ward

146 - 3B Dave Lemmings
140 - 3B Dale Lamberty
137 - 3B Steven Bussell
134 - 3B Carl Kahle
127 - 3B Troy Kinnear
123 - 3B Alan Liao, Sr.
118 - 3B August Kahle
110 - 3B David McAuliffe

186 - LF Ray Kress
158 - LF Oscar Vancini
157 - LF Leo Santiago
145 - LF Paul Lett
141 - LF Ogden Wing
139 - LF Dewey Mickelsen
138 - LF Wolter Tjeenk-Willink
137 - LF Will Miller
137 - OF Jim Alan
132 - LF John Schmieder
126 - LF Glendon Zegri

168 - CF Jed Williams
166 - CF Dark Horse Allen
146 - CF Peaches Badeau
141 - CF 1B Ben Baum
141 - OF Andrew Vamos
140 - CF Bud Breckenridge
140 - CF Ray Brown
138 - CF Rudel Dietrich
135 - OF Jimmy Ditty
133 - CF Roy Hobbs
133 - CF Dave Arkless
133 - CF Mark Silcox
129 - CF Ping Hung
127 - CF Campbell Ditty
122 - CF Sam Kass
120 - 2B/CF Ervin Skjerly
114 - CF Jon Minzey

141 - RF Tee Carver
141 - RF Asa Booker
141 - OF Andrew Vamos
140 - RF John Falise
140 - RF Scott Podlasek
138 - RF Tyrell Chestnut
137 - OF Jim Alan
131 - RF Nick Graves
131 - RF William Perry
129 - RF George Ward
129 - RF Moonlight Graham

jdw · 06-02-2008, 04:14 PM

Batters

Current Career Leaders (Click to View Entire List):
AVG: .364
Hits: 4000
HR: 607
RBI: 1906
2B: 665
BB: 2509
R: 2065
SB: 1297

Wilford Woodworth, 3B, Last Season: 1965
1663 H, 305 2B, 408 HR, 1278 RBI, 1141 R
1286 K, 1051 BB, 57 SB
.244 AVG, .350 OBP, .483 SLG, .833 OPS
OPS+: 128
BOY Award: 1955
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: NONE
All Pros: 1954, 1955
Pennants: 1956, 1959
WS Victories: 1956
WS Record: .150/.292/.275/.567, 1 HR, 4 RBI, 6 R
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: HR 1, SLG 1, TB 1
Career Top 25: HR (6)
Final Year on Ballot: 1985

"Grumpy" Abraham Noel, 1B, Last Season: 1966
2799 H, 331 2B, 253 HR, 1346 RBI, 1248 R
1436 K, 1132 BB, 3 SB
.294 AVG, .371 OBP, .416 SLG, .787 OPS
OPS+: 122
BOY Award: 1959
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 1
All Pros: 1959, 1960
Pennants: 1956, 1958, 1960, 1961, 1962
WS Victories: 1961, 1962
WS Record: .252/.328/.383/.711, 2 HR, 10 RBI, 14 R
Batting Titles: 1959
Led League in: BA 1, OBP 1, SLG 1, OPS 1, R 1, H 1, TB 1, RBI 1
Career Top 25: NONE
Final Year on Ballot: 1986

Roger Joyce, SS, Last Season: 1967
2394 H, 341 2B, 109 HR, 837 RBI, 1128 R
746 K, 685 BB
.312 AVG, .370 OBP, .416 SLG, .785 OPS
OPS+: 122
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: NONE
All Pros: 1956, 1957, 1958, 1961, 1962, 1963
Pennants: 1956, 1958, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1966
WS Victories: 1961, 1962
WS Record: .240/.308/.339/.647, 2 HR, 7 RBI, 10 R
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: R 1, H 3
Career Top 25: NONE
Final Year on Ballot: 1988

Henry Thomas, CF, Last Season: 1970
2369 H, 367 2B, 285 HR, 1146 RBI, 1236 R
1402 K, 715 BB
.292 AVG, .349 OBP, .446 SLG, .815 OPS
OPS+: 131
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: NONE
All Pros: 1960, 1963, 1964, 1965
Pennants: 1961, 1964, 1965
WS Victories: 1964
WS Record: .351/.390/.610/1.001, 6 HR, 16 RBI, 16 R
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: 3B 2
Career Top 25: NONE
Final Year on Ballot: 1990

David Lawrence, 1B/3B/SS , Last Season: 1972
2352 H, 410 2B, 204 HR, 1190 RBI, 1170 R
1046 K, 922 BB
.297 AVG, .372 OBP, .445 SLG, .817 OPS
OPS+: 133
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 1964
All Pros: 1967 (3B), 1968 (SS)
Pennants: 1960, 1969
WS Victories: 1960, 1969
Post Season Record: .478/.500/.696/1.196 , 1 HR, 4 RBI, 4 R
Batting Titles: 1970
Led League in: NONE
Career Top 25: NONE
Final Year on Ballot: 1992

Henry Cruz, C, Last Season: 1973
2056 H, 247 2B, 153 HR, 955 RBI, 852 R
761 K, 558 BB
.299 AVG, .350 OBP, .407 SLG, .757 OPS
OPS+: 116
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: 1958
Gold Gloves: 1958, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1967, 1969
All Pros: 1960, 1961, 1963, 1965
Divisions: 1969, 1970, 1971, 1973
Pennants: 1960, 1966, 1967, 1968, 1970, 1971
WS Victories: 1960, 1966, 1967
Post Season Record: .227/.269/.267/.535, 0 HR, 13 RBI, 7 R
Batting Titles: 1969
Led League in: BA 1
Career Top 25: NONE
Final Year on Ballot: 1993

Harmon Dego, 1B, Last Season: 1975
2432 H, 313 2B, 363 HR, 1410 RBI, 1122 R
949 K, 684 BB, 7 SB
.277 AVG, .329 OBP, .443 SLG, .771 OPS
OPS+: 122
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: NONE
All Pros: 1965, 1967
Divisions: 1970, 1973
Pennants: 1963, 1964, 1970
WS Victories: 1963, 1970
WS Record: .317/.330/.465/.795, 3 HR, 8 RBI, 10 R
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: NONE
Career Top 25: HR (19th)
Final Year on Ballot: 1995

NEW

Brett Evans, 2B/SS, Last Season: 1976
2661 H, 351 2B, 216 HR, 1038 RBI, 1621 R
1905 K, 1924 BB, 140 SB
.277 AVG, .398 OBP, .397 SLG, .795 OPS
OPS+: 133
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: NONE
All Pros: 1960, 1963, 1965 (SS), 1966 (SS), 1967 (SS), 1969, 1971; 1960s All Decade Team
Divisions: 1972
Pennants: 1958, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1972
WS Victories: 1961, 1962, 1972
WS Record: .257/.388/.367/.755, 1 HR, 8 RBI, 18 R
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: OBP 2, BB 10
Career Top 25: BB (4th)
Final Year on Ballot: 1996
Note: New Cato missing cup of coffee in 1957.

Albert Esselink, 1B/OF, Last Season: 1976
2176 H, 301 2B, 125 HR, 920 RBI, 1031 R
851 K, 782 BB, 9 SB
.300 AVG, .368 OBP, .398 SLG, .766 OPS
OPS+: 126
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: NONE
All Pros: NONE
Divisions: 1974, 1975, 1976
Pennants: 1961, 1965, 1967, 1974, 1976
WS Victories: 1965, 1974, 1976
WS Record: .269/.310/.373/.683, 1 HR, 7 RBI, 7 R
Batting Titles: 1971
Led League in: OBP 1
Career Top 25: NONE
Final Year on Ballot: 1996

jdw · 06-02-2008, 04:15 PM

Pitchers
Current Career Leaders (Click to View Entire List):
ERA: 2.10
W: 446
K: 4078
CG: 601
SHO: 95
SV: 390

Here's all HOF'er OPS+ for reference:

210 - Andrew Murphy
163 - Frank Smith
162 - Tim Lopresto
161 - Raymond Gindler
158 - Allen Albertini
157 - Jethro Lee
157 - Cecil Tan
150 - Randy Liebermann
145 - Punchy Cote
145 - Howard Adams
145 - Bourbon Allen Jr.
144 - Johnny Cakes Sutton
144 - Wesley McGee
144 - Perry Wanklen
142 - Cotton Simson
138 - Dave McBean
138 - Martin Gwaltney
137 - Mark Krosser
137 - Johnny Swinson
137 - Carpenter Erickson
137 - Joe Helton
136 - Bowie Castellon
135 - Ken Zinn
134 - Otto Kahle
134 - Scott Fenner
133 - Jassen Nelson
131 - Remmy Paul
131 - Luke Riley
131 - Tobe Palmer
129 - David Wiskersham
128 - Brad De la Garza
125 - Adam Sardina
125 - Grady Ingram
125 - Levi Sellers
124 - Bourbon Allen
124 - Art Booth
121 - Ahrend Nagel
120 - Terry Schukraft
116 - John Nolting
116 - Hal Andrew
115 - Mark Ponfick

jdw · 06-02-2008, 04:16 PM

Bud Ulrich, Last Season: 1962, HOF Standard: 35
210-125, 62.7%, 3.88 ERA
3274.2 IP, 1411 BB, 2085 K, 73 CG, 16 SHO, 1.34 WHIP
ERA+: 108
Murphy Award: NONE
ROY Award: 1949
All Pros: 1952, 1955
Pennants: 1952, 1953, 1954, 1955, 1959
World Championships: 1952, 1953, 1954, 1955, 1959
WS Record: 4-1, 4.77 ERA
No-Hitters: NONE
Led League in: NONE
Career Top 25: NONE
Final Year on Ballot: 1983

Lex Tjeenk-Willink, Last Season: 1964, HOF Standard: 46
245-170, 59.0%, 3.79 ERA
3877 IP, 1287 BB, 3069 K, 121 CG, 19 SHO, 1.19 WHIP
ERA+: 112
Murphy Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
All Pros: 1957
Pennants: NONE
World Championships: NONE
WS Record: N/A
No-Hitters: 2
Led League in: Wins 1
Career Top 25: K's (10)
Final Year on Ballot: 1985

Hank Makris, Last Season: 1964
214-173, 55.3%, 3.48 ERA
3634.0 IP, 1092 BB, 1563 K, 166 CG, 32 SHO, 1.28 WHIP
ERA+: 124
Murphy Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
GG Award: 1953, 1958, 1961, 1963
WS MVP: 1957, 1959
All Pros: 1956, 1957, 1958, 1960
Pennants: 1957, 1959
World Championships: 1957, 1959
WS Record: 4-0, 0.82 ERA
No-Hitters: 2
Led League in: SHO 2,
Career Top 25: NONE
Final Year on Ballot: 1986

Cal Granger, Last Season: 1968
100-104, 49.0%, 3.53 ERA
1426.3 IP, 421 BB, 609 K, 390 SV
ERA+: N/A
Murphy Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
GG Award: NONE
WS MVP: NONE
All Pros: 1952, 1955, 1956, 1957, 1958, 1962, 1964; 1950s All Decade Team
Pennants: 1951, 1957, 1958, 1963
World Championships: 1951, 1958
WS Record: 0-1, 3.49 ERA, 4 SV
Led League in: SV 6, G 1
Career Top 25: SV (1), Appearances (1), Relief Innings (1)
Final Year on Ballot: 1988

Brock Putnam, Last Season: 1971
187-106, 63.8%, 2.94 ERA
2869.7 IP, 601 BB, 1636 K, 180 CG, 36 SHO, 1.16 WHIP
ERA+: 134
Murphy Award: 1960
ROY Award: 1960
GG Award: NONE
All Pros: 1960, 1962, 1964
Pennants: 1960, 1961, 1962
World Championships: 1961, 1962
WS Record: 3-0, 2.92 ERA
No-Hitters: NONE
Led League in: W 1, IP 1, SHO 2
Career Top 25: NONE
Final Year on Ballot: 1991

John Patterson, Last Season: 1972
121-73, 62.4%, 2.68 ERA
1301.3 IP, 192 BB, 872 K, 339 SV
ERA+: N/A
Murphy Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
GG Award: NONE
WS MVP: NONE
All Pros: 1959, 1961, 1963, 1964, 1965; 1960s All Decade Team
Divisions: 1969, 1970, 1971
Pennants: 1955, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1968, 1970, 1971
World Championships: 1955, 1963
Post Season Record: 4-1, 2.19 ERA, 1 SV
Led League in: SV 6, G 5
Career Top 25: SV (2), Appearances (2), Relief Innings (2)
Final Year on Ballot: 1992

Louis Schmit, Last Season: 1972
244-178, 57.8%, 3.47 ERA
4007.0 IP, 1523 BB, 3528 K, 112 CG, 35 SHO, 1.20 WHIP
ERA+: 118
Murphy Award: 1964, 1966
ROY Award: NONE
GG Award: NONE
WS MVP: 1964
All Pros: 1964, 1966
Divisions: 1969
Pennants: 1964, 1965
World Championships: 1964
Post Season Record: 3-2, 3.69 ERA
No-Hitters: NONE
Led League in: ERA 1, W 2, W% 1, SHO 2, K 1
Career Top 25: K (7)
Final Year on Ballot: 1992

Roosevelt Wurth, Last Season: 1973
222-149, 59.8%, 3.60 ERA
3543.2 IP, 416 BB, 2065 K, 179 CG, 16 SHO, 1.11 WHIP
ERA+: 111
Murphy Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
GG Award: NONE
WS MVP: NONE
All Pros: NONE
Divisions: 1973
Pennants: 1959, 1965, 1973
World Championships: 1973
Post Season Record: 0-2, 4.13 ERA
No-Hitters: NONE
Led League in: W% 1, CG 1, WHIP 1
Career Top 25: NONE
Final Year on Ballot: 1993

Charley Harrington, Last Season: 1974
246-182, 57.5%, 3.32 ERA
3972.0 IP, 1325 BB, 3437 K, 73 CG, 14 SHO, 1.15 WHIP
ERA+: 125
Murphy Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
GG Award: NONE
WS MVP: NONE
All Pros: 1966
Divisions: 1971
Pennants: 1966
World Championships: NONE
Post Season Record: 0-1, 5.69 ERA
No-Hitters: 1 (Perfect Game)
Led League in: W 1, W% 1, K 1
Career Top 25: K 11
Final Year on Ballot: 1994

Theo Torbett, Last Season: 1975
252-169, 59.9%, 3.19 ERA
4055.0 IP, 780 BB, 2848 K, 116 CG, 26 SHO, 1.09 WHIP
ERA+: 124
Murphy Award: 1961
ROY Award: NONE
GG Award: NONE
WS MVP: NONE
All Pros: 1960, 1961, 1962
Divisions: 1969
Pennants: 1963, 1969
WS Victories: 1969
Post Season Record: 2-2, 1.82 ERA
No-Hitters: NONE
Led League in: W 1
Career Top 25: K (21st)
Final Year on Ballot: 1995

Roger Rembro, Last Season: 1975
223-143, 60.9%, 3.48 ERA
3368.0 IP, 744 BB, 1860 K, 145 CG, 23 SHO, 1.19 WHIP
ERA+: 115
Murphy Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
GG Award: NONE
WS MVP: NONE
All Pros: 1967
Divisions: 1971
Pennants: 1958, 1965. 1967
WS Victories: 1958, 1967
Post Season Record: 1-2, 3.38 ERA
No-Hitters: 1
Led League in: SHO 1
Career Top 25: NONE
Final Year on Ballot: 1995

NEW

Joe Cardinan, Last Season: 1976
197-114, 63.3%, 2.78 ERA
3008.2 IP, 1004 BB, 2343 K, 163 CG, 38 SHO, 1.14 WHIP
ERA+: 145
Murphy Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
GG Award: NONE
WS MVP: NONE
All Pros: 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1974
Divisions: 1971, 1972, 1974
Pennants: NONE
WS Victories: NONE
Post Season Record: 0-2, 1.54 ERA
No-Hitters: NONE
Led League in: ERA 1, SHO 2
Career Top 25: ERA (22nd)
Final Year on Ballot: 1996

ifspuds · 06-02-2008, 04:27 PM

Henry Thomas
Brett Evans
Lex Tjeenk-Willink
Hank Makris
John Patterson
Theo Torbett
Charley Harrington

jdw · 06-02-2008, 04:41 PM

Joe-C's ERA+ as a fulltimer:

1965 - 72
1966 - 82
1967 - 132
1968 - 128
1969 - 133
1970 - 165
1971 - 192
1972 - 183
1973 - 192
1974 - 163
1975 - 140
1976 - 160

This was his ERA run home:

ERA
1967-9-2.78
1970-2-2.53
1971-2-1.88
1972-2-1.88
1973-1-1.93
1974-2-2.34

He doesn't rank in 1976 due to splitting time between the AL and NL. His 160 ERA+ is reflect overall how he pitched in those 222 IP that season: really strong.

Putnam was above 160 just once in his career: a 165.

That doesn't even factor in that Joe-C pitched in Atlanta (hitters park) while Putnam pitched the majority of his career in Dodger Stadium (pitchers park).

The W-L comp of the two is a bit amazing considering Putnam's teams.

John

jdw · 06-02-2008, 04:46 PM

Joe Cardinan
Brett Evans
Cal Granger
Roger Joyce
David Lawrence
Hank Makris
John Patterson
Henry Thomas
Theo Torbett
Wilford Woodworth

knightni · 06-02-2008, 04:54 PM

Wil Woodworth
Grumpy Noel
Harmon Dego
Brett Evans
Louis Schmit
Roosevelt Wurth
Charley Harrington
Theo Torbett
Roger Rembro
Joe Cardinan

tward13 · 06-02-2008, 05:23 PM

Torbett
Joyce
Makris
Lawrence
Cardinan

cogs1 · 06-02-2008, 09:35 PM

Roger Joyce
Henry Thomas
Henry Cruz
Brett Evans
Cal Granger
John Patterson
Joe Cardinan

NCBeachBum · 06-03-2008, 02:15 AM

Joe Cardinan
Brett Evans
David Lawrence
Brock Putnam

fhomess · 06-03-2008, 01:05 PM

1B Albert Esselink
2B Brett Evans
CF Henry Thomas
SP Theo Torbett
SP Charley Harrington
SP Brock Putnam
SP Louis Schmit
SP Lex Tjeenk-Willink
SP Joe Cardinan

toxicavenger74 · 06-03-2008, 02:12 PM

P Cal Granger
P John Patterson
P Joe Cardinan
1B Harmon Dego
2b/SS Brett Evans

jeheinz72 · 06-09-2008, 09:36 AM

David Lawrence
Brett Evans
Albert Esselink
Lex Tjeek-Willink
Cal Granger
Brock Putnam
John Patterson
Theo Torbett
Joe Cardinan
Louis Schmit

fvamos · 06-09-2008, 02:35 PM

thomas
evans
Granger
Harrington
Torbett

metsgeek · 06-10-2008, 12:38 PM

Joyce
Evans
Lawrence
Esselink
Schmit
Tjeenk-Willink
Harrington
Torbett
Cardinan
Rembro

scprideandms · 06-10-2008, 12:38 PM

Torbett
Joyce
Makris
Lawrence
Cardinan
Thomas
Evans

06-02-2008, 04:13 PM	#1
jdw All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,108	Time Warp HOF Ballot 1982 This is the annual Time Warp Baseball League Hall of Fame thread. New to the ballot is the All-1960s second baseman and a five time All Pro whose career was tragically cut short with a career ending injury at the age of 33 while still one of the best pitchers in the game. Have at it. John

06-02-2008, 04:13 PM	#2
jdw All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,108	1936 Initial Ballot Results, 1937 Results, 1938 Results, 1939 Results, 1940 Results, 1941 Results, 1942 Results, 1943 Results, 1944 Results, 1945 Results, 1946 Results, 1947 Results, 1948 Results, 1949 Results, 1950 Results, 1951 Results, 1952 Results, 1953 Results, 1954 Results, 1955 Results, 1956 Results, 1957 Results, 1958 Results, 1959 Results, 1960 Results (lost in board crash), 1961 Results, 1962 Results, 1963 Results, 1964 Results, 1965 Results, 1966 Results, 1967 Results, 1968 Results, 1969 Results, 1970 Results, 1971 Results, 1972 Results, 1973 Results, 1974 Results, 1975 Results, 1976 Results, 1977 Results, 1978 Results, 1979 Results, 1980 Results, 1981 Results All players who received at least 5% of votes on the last ballot were retained for this ballot. I also added players who became eligible for the ballot in 1981 (retired after 1975 season). All players not receiving 5% of votes on this ballot will be removed. Also, all players who have been retired for 20 years fall off this ballot if not elected. Vote for as many or as few as you want. Max votes are 10. PLEASE NOTE: Players who lost service time to the war are denoted with: WWII Notes: OPS+ and ERA+ are listed for all players now. 100 is considered league average. The higher the # the better the player. This lets you see how they did in relation to the players of their generation while also letting you compare their dominance of the league to players from different eras. All Pros are for the Post War era only (1946-). There are traditionally voted on by a poll of the league's GM's and regular participants (1946-48, 1950-62, 1969-) or by the Sporting News (1949, 1963-68, All Decade & Centenial Teams). The year end teams are named for each league and feature one player for each field position along with 4-5 starting pitchers (depending on the rotation size of the era) and one relief pitcher. The stats in "New Cato" are a work in progess with certain years missing. Last edited by jdw; 07-03-2008 at 12:48 PM.

06-02-2008, 04:27 PM	#8
ifspuds Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 2,117	Henry Thomas Brett Evans Lex Tjeenk-Willink Hank Makris John Patterson Theo Torbett Charley Harrington __________________ Jeff Watson Former dynasty writer and online league player, now mostly retired

06-02-2008, 04:54 PM	#11
knightni Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 80	Wil Woodworth Grumpy Noel Harmon Dego Brett Evans Louis Schmit Roosevelt Wurth Charley Harrington Theo Torbett Roger Rembro Joe Cardinan __________________ DPBL 2013, 2019 WS Champs Cincinnati Reds Time Warp 1971 WS Champs Oakland A's

06-02-2008, 09:35 PM	#13
cogs1 Bat Boy Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4	Roger Joyce Henry Thomas Henry Cruz Brett Evans Cal Granger John Patterson Joe Cardinan Last edited by cogs1; 06-07-2008 at 09:50 PM. Reason: wrong first name

06-02-2008, 04:14 PM	#5
jdw All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,108	Batters Current Career Leaders (Click to View Entire List): AVG: .364 Hits: 4000 HR: 607 RBI: 1906 2B: 665 BB: 2509 R: 2065 SB: 1297 Wilford Woodworth, 3B, Last Season: 1965 1663 H, 305 2B, 408 HR, 1278 RBI, 1141 R 1286 K, 1051 BB, 57 SB .244 AVG, .350 OBP, .483 SLG, .833 OPS OPS+: 128 BOY Award: 1955 ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: NONE All Pros: 1954, 1955 Pennants: 1956, 1959 WS Victories: 1956 WS Record: .150/.292/.275/.567, 1 HR, 4 RBI, 6 R Batting Titles: NONE Led League in: HR 1, SLG 1, TB 1 Career Top 25: HR (6) Final Year on Ballot: 1985 "Grumpy" Abraham Noel, 1B, Last Season: 1966 2799 H, 331 2B, 253 HR, 1346 RBI, 1248 R 1436 K, 1132 BB, 3 SB .294 AVG, .371 OBP, .416 SLG, .787 OPS OPS+: 122 BOY Award: 1959 ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: 1 All Pros: 1959, 1960 Pennants: 1956, 1958, 1960, 1961, 1962 WS Victories: 1961, 1962 WS Record: .252/.328/.383/.711, 2 HR, 10 RBI, 14 R Batting Titles: 1959 Led League in: BA 1, OBP 1, SLG 1, OPS 1, R 1, H 1, TB 1, RBI 1 Career Top 25: NONE Final Year on Ballot: 1986 Roger Joyce, SS, Last Season: 1967 2394 H, 341 2B, 109 HR, 837 RBI, 1128 R 746 K, 685 BB .312 AVG, .370 OBP, .416 SLG, .785 OPS OPS+: 122 BOY Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: NONE All Pros: 1956, 1957, 1958, 1961, 1962, 1963 Pennants: 1956, 1958, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1966 WS Victories: 1961, 1962 WS Record: .240/.308/.339/.647, 2 HR, 7 RBI, 10 R Batting Titles: NONE Led League in: R 1, H 3 Career Top 25: NONE Final Year on Ballot: 1988 Henry Thomas, CF, Last Season: 1970 2369 H, 367 2B, 285 HR, 1146 RBI, 1236 R 1402 K, 715 BB .292 AVG, .349 OBP, .446 SLG, .815 OPS OPS+: 131 BOY Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: NONE All Pros: 1960, 1963, 1964, 1965 Pennants: 1961, 1964, 1965 WS Victories: 1964 WS Record: .351/.390/.610/1.001, 6 HR, 16 RBI, 16 R Batting Titles: NONE Led League in: 3B 2 Career Top 25: NONE Final Year on Ballot: 1990 David Lawrence, 1B/3B/SS , Last Season: 1972 2352 H, 410 2B, 204 HR, 1190 RBI, 1170 R 1046 K, 922 BB .297 AVG, .372 OBP, .445 SLG, .817 OPS OPS+: 133 BOY Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: 1964 All Pros: 1967 (3B), 1968 (SS) Pennants: 1960, 1969 WS Victories: 1960, 1969 Post Season Record: .478/.500/.696/1.196 , 1 HR, 4 RBI, 4 R Batting Titles: 1970 Led League in: NONE Career Top 25: NONE Final Year on Ballot: 1992 Henry Cruz, C, Last Season: 1973 2056 H, 247 2B, 153 HR, 955 RBI, 852 R 761 K, 558 BB .299 AVG, .350 OBP, .407 SLG, .757 OPS OPS+: 116 BOY Award: NONE ROY Award: 1958 Gold Gloves: 1958, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1967, 1969 All Pros: 1960, 1961, 1963, 1965 Divisions: 1969, 1970, 1971, 1973 Pennants: 1960, 1966, 1967, 1968, 1970, 1971 WS Victories: 1960, 1966, 1967 Post Season Record: .227/.269/.267/.535, 0 HR, 13 RBI, 7 R Batting Titles: 1969 Led League in: BA 1 Career Top 25: NONE Final Year on Ballot: 1993 Harmon Dego, 1B, Last Season: 1975 2432 H, 313 2B, 363 HR, 1410 RBI, 1122 R 949 K, 684 BB, 7 SB .277 AVG, .329 OBP, .443 SLG, .771 OPS OPS+: 122 BOY Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: NONE All Pros: 1965, 1967 Divisions: 1970, 1973 Pennants: 1963, 1964, 1970 WS Victories: 1963, 1970 WS Record: .317/.330/.465/.795, 3 HR, 8 RBI, 10 R Batting Titles: NONE Led League in: NONE Career Top 25: HR (19th) Final Year on Ballot: 1995 NEW Brett Evans, 2B/SS, Last Season: 1976 2661 H, 351 2B, 216 HR, 1038 RBI, 1621 R 1905 K, 1924 BB, 140 SB .277 AVG, .398 OBP, .397 SLG, .795 OPS OPS+: 133 BOY Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: NONE All Pros: 1960, 1963, 1965 (SS), 1966 (SS), 1967 (SS), 1969, 1971; 1960s All Decade Team Divisions: 1972 Pennants: 1958, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1972 WS Victories: 1961, 1962, 1972 WS Record: .257/.388/.367/.755, 1 HR, 8 RBI, 18 R Batting Titles: NONE Led League in: OBP 2, BB 10 Career Top 25: BB (4th) Final Year on Ballot: 1996 Note: New Cato missing cup of coffee in 1957. Albert Esselink, 1B/OF, Last Season: 1976 2176 H, 301 2B, 125 HR, 920 RBI, 1031 R 851 K, 782 BB, 9 SB .300 AVG, .368 OBP, .398 SLG, .766 OPS OPS+: 126 BOY Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: NONE All Pros: NONE Divisions: 1974, 1975, 1976 Pennants: 1961, 1965, 1967, 1974, 1976 WS Victories: 1965, 1974, 1976 WS Record: .269/.310/.373/.683, 1 HR, 7 RBI, 7 R Batting Titles: 1971 Led League in: OBP 1 Career Top 25: NONE Final Year on Ballot: 1996

06-02-2008, 04:15 PM	#6
jdw All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,108	Pitchers Current Career Leaders (Click to View Entire List): ERA: 2.10 W: 446 K: 4078 CG: 601 SHO: 95 SV: 390 Here's all HOF'er OPS+ for reference: 210 - Andrew Murphy 163 - Frank Smith 162 - Tim Lopresto 161 - Raymond Gindler 158 - Allen Albertini 157 - Jethro Lee 157 - Cecil Tan 150 - Randy Liebermann 145 - Punchy Cote 145 - Howard Adams 145 - Bourbon Allen Jr. 144 - Johnny Cakes Sutton 144 - Wesley McGee 144 - Perry Wanklen 142 - Cotton Simson 138 - Dave McBean 138 - Martin Gwaltney 137 - Mark Krosser 137 - Johnny Swinson 137 - Carpenter Erickson 137 - Joe Helton 136 - Bowie Castellon 135 - Ken Zinn 134 - Otto Kahle 134 - Scott Fenner 133 - Jassen Nelson 131 - Remmy Paul 131 - Luke Riley 131 - Tobe Palmer 129 - David Wiskersham 128 - Brad De la Garza 125 - Adam Sardina 125 - Grady Ingram 125 - Levi Sellers 124 - Bourbon Allen 124 - Art Booth 121 - Ahrend Nagel 120 - Terry Schukraft 116 - John Nolting 116 - Hal Andrew 115 - Mark Ponfick

06-02-2008, 04:16 PM	#7
jdw All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,108	Bud Ulrich, Last Season: 1962, HOF Standard: 35 210-125, 62.7%, 3.88 ERA 3274.2 IP, 1411 BB, 2085 K, 73 CG, 16 SHO, 1.34 WHIP ERA+: 108 Murphy Award: NONE ROY Award: 1949 All Pros: 1952, 1955 Pennants: 1952, 1953, 1954, 1955, 1959 World Championships: 1952, 1953, 1954, 1955, 1959 WS Record: 4-1, 4.77 ERA No-Hitters: NONE Led League in: NONE Career Top 25: NONE Final Year on Ballot: 1983 Lex Tjeenk-Willink, Last Season: 1964, HOF Standard: 46 245-170, 59.0%, 3.79 ERA 3877 IP, 1287 BB, 3069 K, 121 CG, 19 SHO, 1.19 WHIP ERA+: 112 Murphy Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE All Pros: 1957 Pennants: NONE World Championships: NONE WS Record: N/A No-Hitters: 2 Led League in: Wins 1 Career Top 25: K's (10) Final Year on Ballot: 1985 Hank Makris, Last Season: 1964 214-173, 55.3%, 3.48 ERA 3634.0 IP, 1092 BB, 1563 K, 166 CG, 32 SHO, 1.28 WHIP ERA+: 124 Murphy Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE GG Award: 1953, 1958, 1961, 1963 WS MVP: 1957, 1959 All Pros: 1956, 1957, 1958, 1960 Pennants: 1957, 1959 World Championships: 1957, 1959 WS Record: 4-0, 0.82 ERA No-Hitters: 2 Led League in: SHO 2, Career Top 25: NONE Final Year on Ballot: 1986 Cal Granger, Last Season: 1968 100-104, 49.0%, 3.53 ERA 1426.3 IP, 421 BB, 609 K, 390 SV ERA+: N/A Murphy Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE GG Award: NONE WS MVP: NONE All Pros: 1952, 1955, 1956, 1957, 1958, 1962, 1964; 1950s All Decade Team Pennants: 1951, 1957, 1958, 1963 World Championships: 1951, 1958 WS Record: 0-1, 3.49 ERA, 4 SV Led League in: SV 6, G 1 Career Top 25: SV (1), Appearances (1), Relief Innings (1) Final Year on Ballot: 1988 Brock Putnam, Last Season: 1971 187-106, 63.8%, 2.94 ERA 2869.7 IP, 601 BB, 1636 K, 180 CG, 36 SHO, 1.16 WHIP ERA+: 134 Murphy Award: 1960 ROY Award: 1960 GG Award: NONE All Pros: 1960, 1962, 1964 Pennants: 1960, 1961, 1962 World Championships: 1961, 1962 WS Record: 3-0, 2.92 ERA No-Hitters: NONE Led League in: W 1, IP 1, SHO 2 Career Top 25: NONE Final Year on Ballot: 1991 John Patterson, Last Season: 1972 121-73, 62.4%, 2.68 ERA 1301.3 IP, 192 BB, 872 K, 339 SV ERA+: N/A Murphy Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE GG Award: NONE WS MVP: NONE All Pros: 1959, 1961, 1963, 1964, 1965; 1960s All Decade Team Divisions: 1969, 1970, 1971 Pennants: 1955, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1968, 1970, 1971 World Championships: 1955, 1963 Post Season Record: 4-1, 2.19 ERA, 1 SV Led League in: SV 6, G 5 Career Top 25: SV (2), Appearances (2), Relief Innings (2) Final Year on Ballot: 1992 Louis Schmit, Last Season: 1972 244-178, 57.8%, 3.47 ERA 4007.0 IP, 1523 BB, 3528 K, 112 CG, 35 SHO, 1.20 WHIP ERA+: 118 Murphy Award: 1964, 1966 ROY Award: NONE GG Award: NONE WS MVP: 1964 All Pros: 1964, 1966 Divisions: 1969 Pennants: 1964, 1965 World Championships: 1964 Post Season Record: 3-2, 3.69 ERA No-Hitters: NONE Led League in: ERA 1, W 2, W% 1, SHO 2, K 1 Career Top 25: K (7) Final Year on Ballot: 1992 Roosevelt Wurth, Last Season: 1973 222-149, 59.8%, 3.60 ERA 3543.2 IP, 416 BB, 2065 K, 179 CG, 16 SHO, 1.11 WHIP ERA+: 111 Murphy Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE GG Award: NONE WS MVP: NONE All Pros: NONE Divisions: 1973 Pennants: 1959, 1965, 1973 World Championships: 1973 Post Season Record: 0-2, 4.13 ERA No-Hitters: NONE Led League in: W% 1, CG 1, WHIP 1 Career Top 25: NONE Final Year on Ballot: 1993 Charley Harrington, Last Season: 1974 246-182, 57.5%, 3.32 ERA 3972.0 IP, 1325 BB, 3437 K, 73 CG, 14 SHO, 1.15 WHIP ERA+: 125 Murphy Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE GG Award: NONE WS MVP: NONE All Pros: 1966 Divisions: 1971 Pennants: 1966 World Championships: NONE Post Season Record: 0-1, 5.69 ERA No-Hitters: 1 (Perfect Game) Led League in: W 1, W% 1, K 1 Career Top 25: K 11 Final Year on Ballot: 1994 Theo Torbett, Last Season: 1975 252-169, 59.9%, 3.19 ERA 4055.0 IP, 780 BB, 2848 K, 116 CG, 26 SHO, 1.09 WHIP ERA+: 124 Murphy Award: 1961 ROY Award: NONE GG Award: NONE WS MVP: NONE All Pros: 1960, 1961, 1962 Divisions: 1969 Pennants: 1963, 1969 WS Victories: 1969 Post Season Record: 2-2, 1.82 ERA No-Hitters: NONE Led League in: W 1 Career Top 25: K (21st) Final Year on Ballot: 1995 Roger Rembro, Last Season: 1975 223-143, 60.9%, 3.48 ERA 3368.0 IP, 744 BB, 1860 K, 145 CG, 23 SHO, 1.19 WHIP ERA+: 115 Murphy Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE GG Award: NONE WS MVP: NONE All Pros: 1967 Divisions: 1971 Pennants: 1958, 1965. 1967 WS Victories: 1958, 1967 Post Season Record: 1-2, 3.38 ERA No-Hitters: 1 Led League in: SHO 1 Career Top 25: NONE Final Year on Ballot: 1995 NEW Joe Cardinan, Last Season: 1976 197-114, 63.3%, 2.78 ERA 3008.2 IP, 1004 BB, 2343 K, 163 CG, 38 SHO, 1.14 WHIP ERA+: 145 Murphy Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE GG Award: NONE WS MVP: NONE All Pros: 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1974 Divisions: 1971, 1972, 1974 Pennants: NONE WS Victories: NONE Post Season Record: 0-2, 1.54 ERA No-Hitters: NONE Led League in: ERA 1, SHO 2 Career Top 25: ERA (22nd) Final Year on Ballot: 1996

06-02-2008, 04:41 PM	#9
jdw All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,108	Joe-C's ERA+ as a fulltimer: 1965 - 72 1966 - 82 1967 - 132 1968 - 128 1969 - 133 1970 - 165 1971 - 192 1972 - 183 1973 - 192 1974 - 163 1975 - 140 1976 - 160 This was his ERA run home: ERA 1967-9-2.78 1970-2-2.53 1971-2-1.88 1972-2-1.88 1973-1-1.93 1974-2-2.34 He doesn't rank in 1976 due to splitting time between the AL and NL. His 160 ERA+ is reflect overall how he pitched in those 222 IP that season: really strong. Putnam was above 160 just once in his career: a 165. That doesn't even factor in that Joe-C pitched in Atlanta (hitters park) while Putnam pitched the majority of his career in Dodger Stadium (pitchers park). The W-L comp of the two is a bit amazing considering Putnam's teams. John

06-02-2008, 04:46 PM	#10
jdw All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,108	Joe Cardinan Brett Evans Cal Granger Roger Joyce David Lawrence Hank Makris John Patterson Henry Thomas Theo Torbett Wilford Woodworth

06-02-2008, 05:23 PM	#12
tward13 All Star Starter Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,957	Torbett Joyce Makris Lawrence Cardinan

06-03-2008, 02:15 AM	#14
NCBeachBum All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Topsail Island, NC, USA Posts: 1,049	Joe Cardinan Brett Evans David Lawrence Brock Putnam __________________ And ain't that a shame, shame, shame Shame, shame, the way you do Oh, it's a shame, shame, shame Shame, shame on you

06-03-2008, 01:05 PM	#15
fhomess Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 3,585	1B Albert Esselink 2B Brett Evans CF Henry Thomas SP Theo Torbett SP Charley Harrington SP Brock Putnam SP Louis Schmit SP Lex Tjeenk-Willink SP Joe Cardinan __________________ StatsLab- PHP/MySQL based utilities for Online Leagues Baseball Cards - Full list of known templates and documentation on card development.

06-03-2008, 02:12 PM	#16
toxicavenger74 All Star Reserve Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 553	P Cal Granger P John Patterson P Joe Cardinan 1B Harmon Dego 2b/SS Brett Evans

06-09-2008, 09:36 AM	#17
jeheinz72 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Fresno, CA Posts: 2,163	David Lawrence Brett Evans Albert Esselink Lex Tjeek-Willink Cal Granger Brock Putnam John Patterson Theo Torbett Joe Cardinan Louis Schmit __________________ Join The Dugout!

06-09-2008, 02:35 PM	#18
fvamos Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 75	thomas evans Granger Harrington Torbett

06-10-2008, 12:38 PM	#19
metsgeek Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Norwood, MA Posts: 5,450	Joyce Evans Lawrence Esselink Schmit Tjeenk-Willink Harrington Torbett Cardinan Rembro __________________ Commissioner - PBRL - Just finished 2009 109 seasons and still running strong!!!

06-10-2008, 12:38 PM	#20
scprideandms All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: N KY, 25 miles from Cincy Posts: 1,314	Torbett Joyce Makris Lawrence Cardinan Thomas Evans __________________ Change your playground + change your playfriends + change your playtoys + change your playtime = Change your life. If you keep on doing what you've always done you'll keep on gitting what you've always gotten.