The Corbin-Paxton Ceiling

[Leo_The_Lip]

I'm in Gold 319 and have a dismaying sense of deja vu:

There are 14 copies of James Paxton and 15 copies of Patrick Corbin pitching here. When I look at the 'Players I can afford' choice for starters, Huge chunks of the first two pages come up with those two names--only Corbin is in red because I'm a renegade and Don Mossi is my other lefty SP)

I don't want another James Paxton clone -- is this an episode of THE ORVILLE?

When my Corbin pitches he usually comes up against his clone.

Seriously, why are there so many Paxton and Corbin cards? They are forcing me to put all my resources into all-RH lineups simply to be effective.

This is less than optimal fun.

[taz20075]

Why are there so many? Because all the people who pulled them or bought them are realizing they're not good cards.

[CrazyWR]

Just an FYI, once you hit Diamond, Paxton gets murdered and Corbin isn't far behind. That said, they are there because they sell well and are pretty decent up until the top two levels. Other cards at that level aren't quite as good so they usually get sold for the $1000 autosell price. You should look into Tiny Bonham or Len Barker or Dennis Martinez or a few others

[Blazinghalo]

Other starters you might consider, in addition to the aforementioned Dennis Martinez, are Fred Newman, Sad Sam Jones and Larry Dierker. As you might surmise I strongly value movement in selecting pitchers.

[joehart]

To add to what was already said....those two are cheap and readily available pitchers that work well at the lower levels (1500-2000).
I have DejaVu all day in Diamond and Perfect as well....just a different set of names.

Here is some data from a few seasons that shows why people tend to start buying at lower levels and selling once they move to the higher leagues.

Corbin holds up a little longer due to his 62 Movement.
Paxton works well early on when he can strike out batters but becomes very prone to homeruns (43 Movement) once he faces better batters.

Patrick Corbin WAR:
Bronze: 5.3, Silver: 3.5, Gold: 3.6, Diamond: 2.85, Perfect: 1.22

James Paxton WAR:
Bronze: 4.82, Silver: 2.95, Gold: 1.75, Diamond: 1.48, Perfect: <1

You can see similar decreases in ERA or increases in HR/9 and Walks/9.

In comparison, Larry Dierker tends to average out closer to 2-3WAR over a full season.

There is a discussion on best starting pitchers that has a few lists of best pitchers.
Those lists are good starting points and you can try to look for pitchers that will last a little bit longer (like the 86 Dallas Keuchel card).

[zrog2000]

Originally Posted by CrazyWR

Just an FYI, once you hit Diamond, Paxton gets murdered and Corbin isn't far behind. That said, they are there because they sell well and are pretty decent up until the top two levels. Other cards at that level aren't quite as good so they usually get sold for the $1000 autosell price. You should look into Tiny Bonham or Len Barker or Dennis Martinez or a few others

Corbin has done ok as my 5th starter in diamond.

[Matt Arnold]

Originally Posted by zrog2000

Corbin has done ok as my 5th starter in diamond.

Corbin can last through Diamond leagues. I've had him on and off, although one of my teams in a Gold league just moved him out of my rotation since he was getting lit up badly.

The other reason they both show up so much in leagues and auction houses is that they both get a pretty nice boost in the bullpen, and make for a nice long-man. Wheeler, for example, actually loses a point of stuff when you move him to the bullpen, but I think I've had either Paxton or Corbin as a long reliever as long as I can find a better arm for the rotation.

[DonkeyKongSr]

Originally Posted by zrog2000

Corbin has done ok as my 5th starter in diamond.

He can work through diamond, but other than Perfect Randy, the 96 Kershaw, and 88 Keuchel, there arent really any lefthanders worth starting in Perfect. Even Chris Sale goes from great SP to Lefty Specialist when he transitions to Perfect. There's just too many righty power guys to start anyone who doesn't have high end Movement vR.

[the_mad_monk]

I dumped Paxton seasons ago once I began to understand the importance of the Movement rating. Corbin has been OK for me in spot starts and long/mid relief (Diamond).

[Leo_The_Lip]

Originally Posted by CrazyWR

Just an FYI, once you hit Diamond, Paxton gets murdered and Corbin isn't far behind. That said, they are there because they sell well and are pretty decent up until the top two levels. Other cards at that level aren't quite as good so they usually get sold for the $1000 autosell price. You should look into Tiny Bonham or Len Barker or Dennis Martinez or a few others

I'm not really interested in 'hitting Diamond'. I'm quite happy in Silver, actually. I want to have fun with players that I like and too many Paxtons and Corbins pretty much destroy the aesthetics of a league.

This is more about Perfect Team's Auction market pushing people into picking up those two by showing them as the 'Best you can buy'. I don't want to spend more than a half-hour or so every other day on PT, so scrolling through lists and trying to remember names and then seeing if the game matches my memories is too time consuming.

I have had Dennis Martinez in my rotation all along and today picked up Dierker. I've wondered about Fred Newman and his excellent Movement and Control, but poor Stuff. I remember his 1964 Strat card as being exactly that description. He could be my next addition. Sad Sam Jones the First, too.

[captainbuttercream]

Originally Posted by CrazyWR

Just an FYI, once you hit Diamond, Paxton gets murdered and Corbin isn't far behind. That said, they are there because they sell well and are pretty decent up until the top two levels. Other cards at that level aren't quite as good so they usually get sold for the $1000 autosell price. You should look into Tiny Bonham or Len Barker or Dennis Martinez or a few others

My Patrick Corbin is doing great in Diamond. 3.15 ERA/3.72 FIP through 19 starts.

I've also been really surprised with Frank Tanana. He's held his own through diamond so far 3.93 ERA/4.35 FIP through 19 starts. He completes the occasional game and strikes out a ton of hitters.

[SJM1583]

Originally Posted by Blazinghalo

Other starters you might consider, in addition to the aforementioned Dennis Martinez, are Fred Newman, Sad Sam Jones and Larry Dierker. As you might surmise I strongly value movement in selecting pitchers.

I do love Dierker!

[CrazyWR]

wow what was the game score on that one? Thats awesome!

Also I agree Corbin is superior to Paxton although I'm surprised in a normal park that he's holding up as well as yall are posting. Certainly can't argue with the numbers though so fair enough.

[<Pion>]

I very rarely notice the box score for the All-Star game, but since one of my players (Cleon Jones) was MVP I took a look. Mookie Betts as starting at RF, and Mookie Betts was starting at 2B. In the 4th inning, Mookie Betts pinch hit for the Mookie Betts playing 2B. After pinch hitting, Mookie Betts stayed in the game, but went to RF, and RF Mookie Betts moved to the vacated 2B position. All three Betts had different ratings at 2B, so the game dutifully moved the one in RF to 2B because his rating was better than the pinch hitter. So it makes sense, but still looks pretty funny in the box score.

[SayHey1]

Originally Posted by CrazyWR

Just an FYI, once you hit Diamond, Paxton gets murdered and Corbin isn't far behind. That said, they are there because they sell well and are pretty decent up until the top two levels. Other cards at that level aren't quite as good so they usually get sold for the $1000 autosell price. You should look into Tiny Bonham or Len Barker or Dennis Martinez or a few others

Last season (my 2nd in Diamond) Patrick Corbin as my 5th starter finished the season with the following numbers:


W/L 17-1
ERA 2.76
WHIP 1.20
FIP 3.89
WAR 2.9


You never know....

[mess]

I used Corbin as my Closer in Diamond for a couple years and he was pretty OK.

Got murdered as a Starter though.


If you have good defense, I would suggest picking up LIVE Kyle Freeland (79 OVR). He's been a groundball machine for me with Machado and Tulo on the left side of the infield just sucking everything up.

2003 Halladay (89 OVR) is also incredible with the right defense, but he's also not cheap and somewhat rare on the AH.

[Morug]

Corbin is pretty good in silver/gold and decent in diamond...never had Paxton.

[DonkeyKongSr]

One significant problem with LHP is even if their vR is exactly the same as a RHP, the RHP will perform better because the RH batters typically have worse ratings vR.

I pulled the data below last season for my 2 gold and 1 perfect team and posted them in another thread. It shows just how skewed the hitter handedness gets at higher levels. If I have time later, I may repull this season where I'm in Gold, Diamond, and Perfect and see if the pattern holds.


LH SP face in each league (Gold 1 - Gold 2 - Perfect):
LHB: 30% - 30% - 16%
RHB: 70% - 70% - 84%

RH SP face in each league (Gold 1 - Gold 2 - Perfect):
LHB: 42% - 45% - 32%
RHB: 58% - 55% - 68%

LHP face half the LHB that RHP do in Perfect. And they are seeing half what they did in Gold. RHP are actually getting a more favorable mix as they move up, although the hitter quality is undoubtedly higher.

[DonkeyKongSr]

I realized I had a simple spreadsheet ready for these calculations, so I just did them again. The LHP vL transition is still evident, but not nearly as dramatic. RHP are facing roughly similar splits across the levels. Still, they have a noticeably easier split to deal with.

LH SP face in each league (Gold - Diamond - Perfect):
LHB: 26% - 24% - 19%
RHB: 74% - 76% - 81%

RH SP face in each league (Gold - Diamond - Perfect):
LHB: 41% - 40% - 42%
RHB: 59% - 60% - 58%

[daves]

In the higher leagues, Corbin is decent in middle relief lefty option.