NFL 2019 Thread

[ezpkns34]

I believe this particular issue was much more blatant last season, actually. Ruhle & Judge are unknowns, but at least you can point to pretty obvious reasons for their hires (Ruhle showed an ability to quickly turn around college programs without high end recruits and Judge got to breathe the same as Bill, which has helped get minority coaches jobs also)

The Kingsbury hire, with a guy who was mediocre for years at TT (far worse results than Leech at the same school), that's far more egregious in my mind and more of a blatant sign of the subconscious choices that can go into hirings

The Chiefs offense has been great. Yes, they have Mahomes & Andy Reid, which undeniably helps. But, how often do you see an OC for an elite offense not even get interviewed? The Bucs had Mr Interception at QB and still managed to put up monster numbers, but Leftwich wasn't even able to get a call to be the token interview to fill a Rooney Rule requirement

I don't know much about Bill Bidwell (or how involved he was in the Kingsbury hire), so I'm not gonna claim he or whoever was pushing for the hire is racist. But, do you think he gets that offer if he looks like Leftwich? Do you think he even gets an interview? Can't really say for sure, but just based on optics, I'd have to assume not

Shurmur was a failed HC, but got a second chance. Adam Gase the same. Both showing the same issues in their 2nd runs that got them fired in their first runs. Again, it's not saying that blatant racism led to their hires or that coaches don't deserve 2nd chances (Belichick wasn't exactly successful in his first run). But, when owners are willing to go to retreads before up & coming black assistants, that's gonna leave them open to questions when the up & coming white assistants like Shanahan & McVey don't seem to get passed up in the same ways

If there was an easy answer to any of it, then it wouldn't be an issue in the first place. Some may say it's not an issue regardless. But when most of the players don't look like many of the coaches, it's going to make some wonder why that is

[dkgo]

Bieniemy interviewed with the giants, panthers, and browns...

He also doesn't call plays so there are legitimate reasons to hire someone else. Like I said you can't make conclusions off of one person or one job, but overall the patterns raise questions.

[pilight]

Originally Posted by dkgo

I will add to be fair, Brian Flores was hired without ever being a coordinator either.

True, but he had twice as much NFL time as Judge and in a variety of positions. Judge was still playing in college when Flores started with the Patriots.

[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by dkgo

I don't think anyone is going to accuse team owners of literally thinking "This guy wouldn't do as well as a head coach because he's black." Or that "Anyone white will do a good job." But it can definitely be a sub-conscious thing when comparing similar candidates of different race.

And you are also right that who you know is a big deal, which can make it hard for minority candidates to break into the club. Part of the Rooney Rule is to get coaches who wouldn't otherwise be considered the chance to be in front of the right people.

You can't conclude anything based on one hire and no one knows how any of these coaches are going to do in the NFL. But there does seem to be a pattern that raises questions as to if minority coaches are getting the same chances.

I will add to be fair, Brian Flores was hired without ever being a coordinator either.

What you say makes a lot of sense I guess. I just think the bold plays a bigger role than most people think. Or again I'm just being naïve and it's common knowledge.

Friends and family take care of eachother. It's something every workforce goes through no matter what is in place to stop it.

My Godmother and Aunt worked for ATT. They promoted eachother given the chance. They flat out told me that if I got my foot in the door they would move me up as far as they could.

My wife got an interview for a management position at Verizon, then NJ Bell when she was in her mid 20s. Who did the interview? Upper management. Who were they? Our close friends.

At my current job I am friends with the assistant director and director. Can you promote my niece from part time to full time? Of course. That's 20k a year to 64k a year with full benefits and she leaped over people that have been there many years more than her.

I have to believe this kind of stuff goes on everywhere. Probably a lot in sports as well since the jobs are highly sought after.

[ukhotstove]

I'll agree with ragnar, simply because football (soccer) doesn't hide the fact owners hire coaches because their friends, players will also join clubs because their agent already as players at that club. If it happens in one sport you can bet it happens in all sports.

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by Ragnar

What you say makes a lot of sense I guess. I just think the bold plays a bigger role than most people think. Or again I'm just being naïve and it's common knowledge.

Friends and family take care of eachother. It's something every workforce goes through no matter what is in place to stop it.

My Godmother and Aunt worked for ATT. They promoted eachother given the chance. They flat out told me that if I got my foot in the door they would move me up as far as they could.

My wife got an interview for a management position at Verizon, then NJ Bell when she was in her mid 20s. Who did the interview? Upper management. Who were they? Our close friends.

At my current job I am friends with the assistant director and director. Can you promote my niece from part time to full time? Of course. That's 20k a year to 64k a year with full benefits and she leaped over people that have been there many years more than her.

I have to believe this kind of stuff goes on everywhere. Probably a lot in sports as well since the jobs are highly sought after.

What you say is true. But is that fair? And isn't that prejudice even subconsciously? How can I compete against Kyle Shanahan for a job when his dad is a HC? How can I compete w/Scott Turner for an OC job if his dad is an OC? How am I going to compete w/the Ryan brothers for a DC job if their dad is a DC? How is someone compete with Stephen Jones for a GM position when his dad is the owner? How are blacks going to get head coaching positions, CEO's, internships, etc if the prerequisite is still what you were born with? That right there shuts down what you said earlier about if you work hard & are the best you will get hired cause owners just want to win. That is still just as big an obstacle as an ethnic name on a resume.

There is always an excuse to exclude. There is always an obstacle. There is always a reason. But there is rarely an excuse or reason to hire.

[damientheomen3]

Originally Posted by ezpkns34

I believe this particular issue was much more blatant last season, actually. Ruhle & Judge are unknowns, but at least you can point to pretty obvious reasons for their hires (Ruhle showed an ability to quickly turn around college programs without high end recruits and Judge got to breathe the same as Bill, which has helped get minority coaches jobs also)

The Kingsbury hire, with a guy who was mediocre for years at TT (far worse results than Leech at the same school), that's far more egregious in my mind and more of a blatant sign of the subconscious choices that can go into hirings

The Chiefs offense has been great. Yes, they have Mahomes & Andy Reid, which undeniably helps. But, how often do you see an OC for an elite offense not even get interviewed? The Bucs had Mr Interception at QB and still managed to put up monster numbers, but Leftwich wasn't even able to get a call to be the token interview to fill a Rooney Rule requirement

I don't know much about Bill Bidwell (or how involved he was in the Kingsbury hire), so I'm not gonna claim he or whoever was pushing for the hire is racist. But, do you think he gets that offer if he looks like Leftwich? Do you think he even gets an interview? Can't really say for sure, but just based on optics, I'd have to assume not

Shurmur was a failed HC, but got a second chance. Adam Gase the same. Both showing the same issues in their 2nd runs that got them fired in their first runs. Again, it's not saying that blatant racism led to their hires or that coaches don't deserve 2nd chances (Belichick wasn't exactly successful in his first run). But, when owners are willing to go to retreads before up & coming black assistants, that's gonna leave them open to questions when the up & coming white assistants like Shanahan & McVey don't seem to get passed up in the same ways

If there was an easy answer to any of it, then it wouldn't be an issue in the first place. Some may say it's not an issue regardless. But when most of the players don't look like many of the coaches, it's going to make some wonder why that is

Kliff was definitely an egregious hire for sure, but I'd say Zac Taylor getting hired because he got Sean McVay's coffee was worse.

Hopefully the Jets get fed up with Gase soon and take a real look at Bienemy, I'd love to see them dip into the Andy Reid coaching tree.

[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

What you say is true. But is that fair? And isn't that prejudice even subconsciously? How can I compete against Kyle Shanahan for a job when his dad is a HC? How can I compete w/Scott Turner for an OC job if his dad is an OC? How am I going to compete w/the Ryan brothers for a DC job if their dad is a DC? How is someone compete with Stephen Jones for a GM position when his dad is the owner? How are blacks going to get head coaching positions, CEO's, internships, etc if the prerequisite is still what you were born with? That right there shuts down what you said earlier about if you work hard & are the best you will get hired cause owners just want to win. That is still just as big an obstacle as an ethnic name on a resume.

There is always an excuse to exclude. There is always an obstacle. There is always a reason. But there is rarely an excuse or reason to hire.

Of course it's not fair. But IMO owners see it as a win/win. Take the Jimmy Johnson hire back in '89 was it? Fairly impressive in college but no NFL experience. And up until that point no college coach has ever won both a national championship and a Super Bowl. But more notably they were friends. They went way back. He hired his friend. It may not be fair. But he did what he wanted to do and it worked out. Not so well with Switzer afterwards however.

Can someone explain to me what good the Rooney rule serves? Is there an upside? Jerry Jones had Marvin Lewis in for an interview. If I was Lewis I wouldn't have gone to that interview knowing it was a formality. Wasting his time.

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by Ragnar

Of course it's not fair. But IMO owners see it as a win/win. Take the Jimmy Johnson hire back in '89 was it? Fairly impressive in college but no NFL experience. And up until that point no college coach has ever won both a national championship and a Super Bowl. But more notably they were friends. They went way back. He hired his friend. It may not be fair. But he did what he wanted to do and it worked out. Not so well with Switzer afterwards however.

And how many of these wealthy, white, blue-blood men have close relationships with someone of color? There aren't many people that look like me that they run into at the country club. There lies the glass ceiling. But if owners really were, as you surmised earlier, were simply concerned with winning and didn't give a bleep about color, then friendship, family, familiarity wouldn't be a factor.

Can someone explain to me what good the Rooney rule serves? Is there an upside? Jerry Jones had Marvin Lewis in for an interview. If I was Lewis I wouldn't have gone to that interview knowing it was a formality. Wasting his time.

The idea was to encourage management to dig a little instead of just skimming at the usual suspects. It hasn't worked in the majority of cases because you can't change a person's heart. A lot of times they have already figured out who they want and just call in Marvin or Eric to satisfy the rule.

[pilight]

The Rooney Rule was a PR move by the league. They were getting quite a bit of bad press due to the lack of diversity in their coaching ranks, so they did the very least they could do. There have been more black coaches hired since the rule has been in place.

[thehef]

This same topic was hot on local sports talk radio yesterday, and one of the hosts pointed out (what I thought was) an interesting angle. He told the story of how a legendary filmmaker chose a relative unknown for a project over several more-qualified candidates. Asked why he chose the unknown, he answered, "because he reminded me of a young me."

This is not to say that this criteria is what owners & GM's (consciously or subconciously) use when hiring coaches, but it goes along with the thinking that people hire those that they're more comfortable with, and many times those whom they are most-comfortable with are those who are most like them. This could apply to someone (doing the hiring) of ANY race. Of course, we all know that those doing the hiring are predominantly white, so from that perspective it's unfair. But it's not really an issue of racial bias or discrimination.

Originally Posted by pilight

The Rooney Rule was a PR move by the league. They were getting quite a bit of bad press due to the lack of diversity in their coaching ranks, so they did the very least they could do. There have been more black coaches hired since the rule has been in place.

I'm sure that "PR move" was a component of it, but I don't agree that it was the very least they could do. Rather, I don't know that they could've done more and have it be accepted as both fair and workable (if the "do more" was a quota or mandate). And your last sentence speaks to its effectiveness...

Originally Posted by dkgo

Part of the Rooney Rule is to get coaches who wouldn't otherwise be considered the chance to be in front of the right people.

On that note, during the same talk radio discussion referenced above, it was noted that Mike Tomlin was essentially given his interview simply to satisfy the Rooney Rule requirement. However, he SO blew them away that they hired him. That probably hasn't happened that often, but it's undeniable that a) being a "candidate" simply to satisfy the requirement is good experience for a coach, and b) if a "candidate" makes a good impression, word of that is going to spread. And those are both good things... These types of changes take time, and understandably don't move fast enough for some. But we are, IMO, definitely headed in the right direction.

Originally Posted by dkgo

I will add to be fair, Brian Flores was hired without ever being a coordinator either.

I'll add (and it's not really related to this discussion), that - as a lifelong Dolphins fan - while I liked the Flores hiring, my expectations for the season were especially low. In fact, I think in this forum somewhere I predicted 0-16 and that they'd be lucky to lose even one game by less than single digits. I am a believer in Flores and I only hope the front office (when it comes to drafting and free agents) is up to the task that lies ahead.

[ezpkns34]

Monday, September 30
Updated: October 2, 7:03 PM ET

Cochran says black coaches held to different standard
Associated Press

BALTIMORE -- Attorney Johnnie Cochran Jr. released a report Monday that criticizes the NFL's hiring practice involving black head coaches, and threatened to sue the league if it does not adhere to suggestions to remedy the situation.

The report, called "Black Coaches in the National Football League: Superior Performance, Inferior Opportunities,'' was compiled by the Washington law firm of Mehri & Skalet.

It addresses the league's hiring and firing of minority coaches, using statistical information compiled over the last 15 years.

Calls to the NFL on Monday night were not immediately returned.

Dr. Janice Madden, a labor economist, determined that black coaches averaged 1.1 more wins per season than white coaches and led their teams to the playoffs 67 percent of the time compared with 39 percent of the time for white coaches.

But Cochran noted there have been only five black head coaches since 1986 -- Art Shell, Dennis Green, Tony Dungy, Ray Rhodes and Herman Edwards. Only Indianapolis' Dungy and Edwards of the New York Jets are currently employed as head coaches.

"Black coaches are being held to a higher standard,'' Cochran said at a news conference. "Now is the time for the NFL to step up and make a change.''

To stimulate the hiring of African-Americans as head coaches, Cochran proposed that commissioner Paul Tagliabue "reward at least one team each year for developing a diverse front office'' with a draft pick.

He also asked the NFL to require team owners to include "diverse racial groups'' when interviewing candidates for coaching positions. According to the report, "owners can choose to opt out of this requirement ... but to do so they must forfeit a draft pick.''

Cochran suggested teams surrender a first-round pick for refusing to interview minorities for head coaching jobs, and a third-round pick for not interviewing minorities for assistant head coach or coordinator.

The creators of the report plan to talk to Tagliabue about their proposal in the next few days. Cochran said he is prepared to take legal action.

"We can litigate this. We can bring a lawsuit,'' Cochran said. "I think the NFL is reasonable. They understand that this can end up in the courts, and they'd rather not see that happen. But let's see if we can have a dialogue. You only litigate after you've done everything you can to negotiate.''

Cyrus Mehri, whose name is under Cochran's on the report, served as counsel in two of the largest race discrimination cases in history, involving Texaco and Coca-Cola.

"We're asking for a fair opportunity to compete,'' Mehri said.

Cochran said he doesn't want to bully the NFL or make money on the deal.

"Our motives are driven not by personal desire or financial gain, but to correct what we see as a great inequity in America's game,'' Cochran said.

Mehri said black coaches have less of a chance to retain their job than their white counterparts.

"One bad year and you're out,'' he said. "There seems to be a lack of patience as far as black coaches are concerned.''

From an AP article in 2002 (from what I always heard, this was a decent push toward initiating the Rooney Rule)

[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

And how many of these wealthy, white, blue-blood men have close relationships with someone of color? There aren't many people that look like me that they run into at the country club. There lies the glass ceiling. But if owners really were, as you surmised earlier, were simply concerned with winning and didn't give a bleep about color, then friendship, family, familiarity wouldn't be a factor.

Like I said, who you know plays a larger role than people think. Familiarity plays a role, but how many times is that due to a lack of a better choice? How many owners rather have someone they know over winning? They think they can do both without a clear option to do otherwise.

Don't think they like winning? Let Mike Tomlin be available and see what happens. He'd be hired on the Tuesday following black Monday if at all possible.

[Cobra Mgr]

If a person makes decisions based on a preference, it is a bias. If it is a preference that is virtually impossible for a certain race to fulfill, then it is a racial bias. Bias. Not hatred. Bias.

[Cobra Mgr]

I hope all the math nerds are watching this Titans Baltimore game

[dkgo]

or anyone who thought lamar was a good qb by that logic

[Cobra Mgr]

So the ex-Oilers visit Houston next week for a trip to the SB?

[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

I hope all the math nerds are watching this Titans Baltimore game

I don't get it.

Originally Posted by dkgo

or anyone who thought lamar was a good qb by that logic

That's one of the reasons I didn't predict them to go to the SB. I do think he's a good QB in regards to giving his team a good chance of winning. But he needs a lot of running support.

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

So the ex-Oilers visit Houston next week for a trip to the SB?

Actually I think they'll be visiting the ex-Texans next week.

[ukhotstove]

Wonder what Jerry Jones is thinking, can't even get into the play offs yet can't move for Texas or ex Texas teams in the AFC play offs.

[ezpkns34]

Originally Posted by Ragnar

Actually I think they'll be visiting the ex-Texans next week.

I see what you did there