Home | Webstore
Latest News: OOTP 25 Available - FHM 10 Available - OOTP Go! Available

Out of the Park Baseball 25 Buy Now!

  

Go Back   OOTP Developments Forums > Out of the Park Developments > Talk Sports

Talk Sports Discuss everything that is sports-related, like MLB, NFL, NHL, NBA, MLS, NASCAR, NCAA sports and teams, trades, coaches, bad calls etc.

View Poll Results: Are Women Being Unfairly Shut Out of Baseball?
Yes...if they can make the plays they should play 24 51.06%
No..besides the fact that they arent good enough, it just be a distraction 7 14.89%
Women should wear diamonds; not play on them 4 8.51%
I think they could play but shouldnt in the men's game 12 25.53%
other 6 12.77%
A female monkey rodeo that plays hardball 7 14.89%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 47. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-19-2009, 03:12 AM   #1
bababui
Hall Of Famer
 
bababui's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 14,147
Infractions: 0/1 (1)
Are Women Being Unfairly Shut Out of Baseball?

Professor and Social Critic Jennifer Ring thinks so.

A national pastime for only half the nation - Los Angeles Times

Quote:
The Dodgers and New York Mets were playing like girls.

Small ball was in full effect. There'd been no home runs, nothing hit deep to the warning track. This was about pitching, defense and fundamentals.

What a perfect game to watch with Jennifer Ring. "Look at this," she said, just after the second inning, the Dodgers ahead of the Mets, 2-0, on a warm May evening at Dodger Stadium. "What a cathedral! Look at that big, beautiful field . . ."

Ring, a baseball fanatic who doubles as a social critic and political science professor at the University of Nevada, then tosses a grenade: "I love baseball, but baseball has a big problem. It's just a sham that our national game basically excludes half the population. Women are pretty much shut out of this game."

I have to hand it to Ring. She's willing to hit a line drive -- straight into the system's teeth. This is why I invited her. Having read her book, "Stolen Bases: Why American Girls Don't Play Baseball," I had come away deeply impressed by her sharp, thoroughly researched examination of gender discrimination in the sport. So impressed that I put out the call: Dodgers game, professor, on me.
Quote:
......I'd had the history lesson: how in the early 1900s, a mythic narrative was shaped that echoes to this day. Baseball in America was connected with being aggressive, orderly, religious, militarily strong and, most of all, manly.

Women? As far back as the mid-1800s, they played baseball. Yet, by the 1930s, they had been, for the most part, not so gently excluded from the game.
Quote:
iven their back-seat status, you've probably never heard of that team, or know that women's baseball is making an official bid for inclusion in the 2016 Olympics. It's a longshot, true, but also a nod to the fact that in many countries -- Japan being the prime example -- women's baseball is taken seriously.
Quote:
It will be a hard road but must be traveled. In our obsession with power we tend to forget it's the little guys, the 5-foot-7 David Ecksteins of the world, who often make big league games tick. If Eckstein can be a difference-maker, imagine if someone such as Martina Navratilova had trained since childhood to play the infield.

She makes an interesting case. It wasnt until the 90's that the powers that be thought Asian men could play in the field at the MLB level. Maybe many more of us, including myself, need to reexamine our assumptions.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsvitak View Post
I am not sure I want to [live in England], where a toilet is a Loo, a truck is a Lorry, and a fag is a cigarette, and when the Queen says "Bloody", it makes the national news.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny P. View Post
Try to rob me at gun point, I'll just kick your ass. No cops needed!
bababui is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2009, 05:27 AM   #2
conception
All Star Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,149
Knowing the caliber of women athletes our there today, I know there has to be some out there who could at least play very effectively up until the upper minors. The problem is that women, who by design don't have the physical strength of man, don't as a whole possess the tremendous talent as the African Americans in the early days as baseball did, which made their exclusion from the "major" leagues a farce. And while it is easy nowadays to say that racism was wrong, there are some aspects of sexism and discrimination based upon it that naturally occur in a sports environment because men would be forced to accommodate females in locker rooms/facilities and other things.

At some point, the gender barrier could truly be broken and women would be accepted freely into the sport. And maybe after that happens, people will look back upon the days of women being excluded as archaic and silly. But I don't know if I see a modern day Jackie Robinson happening anytime soon.
conception is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2009, 05:43 AM   #3
jbergey22
Hall Of Famer
 
jbergey22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,479
Create their own baseball league. Women dont possess the strength, speed, or stamina to compete with men at this time IMO. In the future that may change but Id have a hard time believing to many women could turn around a 95 mph fastball and hit it out of the park.

As for being a player like Eckstein, I guess its possible however not too many players with his skill set make the majors in the 1st place.

Last edited by jbergey22; 07-19-2009 at 05:44 AM.
jbergey22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2009, 06:26 AM   #4
damientheomen3
Hall Of Famer
 
damientheomen3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: with my army of orangutans
Posts: 2,942
obviously a woman would say that women are being treated unfairly. damn feminists...

a different female reporter (idr her name) said, about a week ago, that baseball is horrible and boring and can't hold a candle to NCAA basketball. WHAT?!?!?!?! if you ask me, women are unfairly not being shut out from being sport reporters...
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by locuspc View Post
They did much better at implementing pants than launch angles.
damientheomen3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2009, 07:24 AM   #5
phightin
All Star Reserve
 
phightin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 578
Isn't there already to softball which resolves this issue? If the best softball players in the world have trouble hitting a 60 mph underhand pitch coming at them from no mound than how exactly would they do against a 90 mph fastball? Seriously, softball is baseball tailored for women so I don't see the point of a women's baseball league.
phightin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2009, 09:27 AM   #6
Green & Gold Heart
Hall Of Famer
 
Green & Gold Heart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 5,242
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbergey22 View Post
Create their own baseball league. Women dont possess the strength, speed, or stamina to compete with men at this time IMO. In the future that may change but Id have a hard time believing to many women could turn around a 95 mph fastball and hit it out of the park.
Or throw a 95-mph fastball. I think if there ever was a woman who could actually do this, we'd know about it. The truth of the matter is that there are no women than can do that.

When I was younger, I was always annoyed that I had to play softball. Couldn't pitch overhand, lead off a base, etc. But it makes sense. I sucked playing softball; I would have been even worse at baseball.
Green & Gold Heart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2009, 09:37 AM   #7
Cryomaniac
Hall Of Famer
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Hucknall, Notts, UK
Posts: 4,902
Quote:
Originally Posted by Green & Gold Heart View Post
Or throw a 95-mph fastball. I think if there ever was a woman who could actually do this, we'd know about it. The truth of the matter is that there are no women than can do that.
You don't need a 95mph fastball to be successful though. I think a woman could have success as a knuckleballer. I'd also be interested to see how fast the Williams' sisters could throw if they trained for it. Venus serves a tennis ball faster than a number of men. Thinking about it, if any woman could hit a homerun, it would be her.

Anyway, I think if a woman is good enough she should be allowed to play. All it would take is a GM/manager who was willing to risk looking like an idiot and a woman who could handle potentially being seen as a sideshow.
__________________

Cryomaniac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2009, 09:39 AM   #8
Green & Gold Heart
Hall Of Famer
 
Green & Gold Heart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 5,242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cryomaniac View Post
You don't need a 95mph fastball to be successful though. I think a woman could have success as a knuckleballer. I'd also be interested to see how fast the Williams' sisters could throw if they trained for it. Venus serves a tennis ball faster than a number of men. Thinking about it, if any woman could hit a homerun, it would be her.

Anyway, I think if a woman is good enough she should be allowed to play. All it would take is a GM/manager who was willing to risk looking like an idiot and a woman who could handle potentially being seen as a sideshow.
For comparison's sake, look at Jackie Robinson. He was the first black player and he was an awesome player. It had to be an awesome player to more easily break the barrier. I think if a woman was to play, she'd have to be better than just good enough. She'd have to be at least starter quality if not better.
Green & Gold Heart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2009, 09:41 AM   #9
CONN CHRIS
Global Moderator
 
CONN CHRIS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 28,337
I've always thought that if a woman would make the bigs it would be at a pos. that requires fewer long throws and is more reflexive like 2nd. I have seen many cat-like infielders playing college softball - It'll happen one day.
__________________
CONN CHRIS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2009, 10:28 AM   #10
canadiancreed
Hall Of Famer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 11,660
Blog Entries: 1
Is there something preventing them from starting up a women's baseball league again? If not perhaps this writer should take this potential business opportunity and go to it.
canadiancreed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2009, 10:49 AM   #11
dsvitak
Hall Of Famer
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,807
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cryomaniac View Post
You don't need a 95mph fastball to be successful though. I think a woman could have success as a knuckleballer. I'd also be interested to see how fast the Williams' sisters could throw if they trained for it. Venus serves a tennis ball faster than a number of men. Thinking about it, if any woman could hit a homerun, it would be her.

Anyway, I think if a woman is good enough she should be allowed to play. All it would take is a GM/manager who was willing to risk looking like an idiot and a woman who could handle potentially being seen as a sideshow.
That is about right. A knuckleball throwing pitcher in the American League.

That isn't a crime, Wilbur Wood had a terrific career. He both won AND lost 20 games in a year.

Last edited by dsvitak; 07-19-2009 at 10:50 AM.
dsvitak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2009, 11:11 AM   #12
mlyons
Hall Of Famer
 
mlyons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 3,725
Why exactly couldn't a woman throw a 95 mph fastball?
__________________
Things can always be worse.
mlyons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2009, 12:01 PM   #13
MorseMoose
Hall Of Famer
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 6,023
Blog Entries: 4
Infractions: 1/1 (1)
What's next...gays in the military? How absurd!
MorseMoose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2009, 12:14 PM   #14
wireman
All Star Reserve
 
wireman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Harrisonburg VA
Posts: 765
Quote:
Originally Posted by MorseMoose View Post
What's next...gays in the military?
Don't even ask.
__________________
"Sometimes the magic works and sometimes it doesn't."
wireman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2009, 12:18 PM   #15
Erik W.
Global Moderator
 
Erik W.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Rivière-du-Loup, Qc
Posts: 4,615
Quote:
Originally Posted by wireman View Post
Don't even ask.
And definitely don't tell.
__________________
Free agent baseball fan. Let's go (insert team name here)!
Erik W. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2009, 12:36 PM   #16
wireman
All Star Reserve
 
wireman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Harrisonburg VA
Posts: 765
You probably all know this stuff, but I didn't notice it mentioned, so:

Lizzie Stroud pitched a scoreless inning in the Eastern League in 1898. Although I gather it was kind of an Eddie Gaedel thing, she didn't get shellacked.

A 17-year-old girl called Jackie Mitchell was under contract to play for the Chattanooga Lookouts in 1931. In an exhibition game, she struck out Lou Gehrig and Babe Ruth. A few days later, Ayatollah Landis declared baseball too "strenuous" for women and voided her contract.

Reputedly, she didn't have a fastball, BTW.
__________________
"Sometimes the magic works and sometimes it doesn't."
wireman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2009, 12:38 PM   #17
Slackker
All Star Reserve
 
Slackker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 777
I just don't get how things like this become an issue. Racial exclusion is stupid. Skin color doesn't keep one guy from playing as well as another. Gender, however, brings up many differences in physical capability.

Form a new women's baseball league. Show us a big power hitter or a great pitcher whose skill set mirrors that of major league players. Then complain. Until then it's a complete waste of space.
------------
Plus.. my rotoworld would be loaded with "Julie Schnider to miss three days (rag)." I just can't have that.

I could see Omar Minaya trading for a hot latin chick to boost team morale. Could pick up a woman off the street (not meaning a hooker, but perhaps!) that would be better than Tatis or Oliver Perez.
Slackker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2009, 12:39 PM   #18
stevebydac
All Star Reserve
 
stevebydac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: In a fictional baseball world
Posts: 835
Quote:
Originally Posted by phightin View Post
Isn't there already to softball which resolves this issue? If the best softball players in the world have trouble hitting a 60 mph underhand pitch coming at them from no mound than how exactly would they do against a 90 mph fastball? Seriously, softball is baseball tailored for women so I don't see the point of a women's baseball league.
Top female softball pitchers throw 65-72 MPH from a pitching rubber 43 feet away. That is equivalent to a Major League fastball. Quote:

"The distance for a fastpitch pitcher delivery point will be 40ft due to the fact that the release point is at the hip. Most pitchers hips are at about 6ft in front of the rubber on release, the distance for a baseball pitcher will be at 53ft since the release point is ahead of the front foot. You could argue this with me a bit but I will try to be on the side of caution.
A world class female pitcher who throws a 68mph pitch released at 38 ft would allow the hitter .381 of a second to react, which equates to a 95 MPH pitch in baseball."

A Comparison of baseball and fastpitch softball pitching

So women could hit a MLB fastball. What they would lack is power.

That said, how are they being "shut out" of men's baseball? If I'm a coach somewhere and I see a girl with great abilities who wants to play on my team, why would I deny her a chance? Have there been a slew of discrimination cases somewhere?
__________________


Last edited by stevebydac; 07-19-2009 at 12:44 PM.
stevebydac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2009, 02:00 PM   #19
bababui
Hall Of Famer
 
bababui's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 14,147
Infractions: 0/1 (1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Green & Gold Heart View Post
Or throw a 95-mph fastball. I think if there ever was a woman who could actually do this, we'd know about it. The truth of the matter is that there are no women than can do that.

When I was younger, I was always annoyed that I had to play softball. Couldn't pitch overhand, lead off a base, etc. But it makes sense. I sucked playing softball; I would have been even worse at baseball.
Effect of body size and gender in overarm throwing...[Eur J Appl Physiol. 2004] - PubMed Result

This study seems to prove that its body size and musculature are the sole factors that determine throwing speed. Gender is neutral when the testees are physically equivalent. It would seem to indicate that there is a fit 6 foot woman out there who could throw 95. Maybe someone like the above mentioned Martina or a Venus Williams?

Quote:
Body size had a strong positive effect on the throwing performance and isometric strength. Throwing velocity appeared to be affected by gender when size was expressed by mass or height (P<0.001). However, this dependence was completely explained by size differences when expressed as fat-free body mass (FFM). For strength, no gender effect was found at all, i.e. all gender differences were explained by size differences, irrespective on how this was expressed. The finding that strength and velocity show a gender independent relationship strengthens the notion that gender difference is based on difference in muscle bulk. We conclude that FFM, as an approximation for skeletal muscle mass, is the best measure to express body size when related to physical performance.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsvitak View Post
I am not sure I want to [live in England], where a toilet is a Loo, a truck is a Lorry, and a fag is a cigarette, and when the Queen says "Bloody", it makes the national news.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny P. View Post
Try to rob me at gun point, I'll just kick your ass. No cops needed!
bababui is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2009, 02:48 PM   #20
jarmenia
Hall Of Famer
 
jarmenia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Tampa, FL USA
Posts: 4,503
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevebydac View Post
Top female softball pitchers throw 65-72 MPH from a pitching rubber 43 feet away. That is equivalent to a Major League fastball. Quote:

"The distance for a fastpitch pitcher delivery point will be 40ft due to the fact that the release point is at the hip. Most pitchers hips are at about 6ft in front of the rubber on release, the distance for a baseball pitcher will be at 53ft since the release point is ahead of the front foot. You could argue this with me a bit but I will try to be on the side of caution.
A world class female pitcher who throws a 68mph pitch released at 38 ft would allow the hitter .381 of a second to react, which equates to a 95 MPH pitch in baseball."

A Comparison of baseball and fastpitch softball pitching

So women could hit a MLB fastball. What they would lack is power.
What you mean to say is women can hit a 72 MPH underhand fast pitch softball with an aluminum bat that has a length to weight ratio much larger than even college baseball players. How they would fair against a 95 MPH over ptich you have no idea.

BTW, the article fails to take into account how fast the ball decelerates as it approaches the plate. Most times, the speed of the pitch is measured at the time the ball is released by the pitcher. By the time it crosses the plate, it has slowed down and softballs will slow down faster than a baseball.
__________________
When is good enough, good enough?

jarmenia is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:09 AM.

 

Major League and Minor League Baseball trademarks and copyrights are used with permission of Major League Baseball. Visit MLB.com and MiLB.com.

Officially Licensed Product – MLB Players, Inc.

Out of the Park Baseball is a registered trademark of Out of the Park Developments GmbH & Co. KG

Google Play is a trademark of Google Inc.

Apple, iPhone, iPod touch and iPad are trademarks of Apple Inc., registered in the U.S. and other countries.

COPYRIGHT © 2023 OUT OF THE PARK DEVELOPMENTS. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

 

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright © 2020 Out of the Park Developments