Minor League and Spring Training Injuries - HUGE glitch in the game

[simcrazy]

Can anyone from OOTP please let me know if the following problem is being addressed?:

If a minor league player on your 40 man roster during spring training gets any type of injury that lingers into the year,

OR

If you have a minor league player that suffers an injury lasting more than 60 days,

the game handles it incorrectly.

In the first scenario, you cannot demote the minor league player and put on the minor league DL.

In the second scenario, the "AI" minor league manager puts the player on the 60 day DL where the player ACCRUES MAJOR LEAGUE SERVICE TIME instead of the minor league DL.

Please let us know this is being fixed! It really changes the game and is unrealistic.

Please let me know if you have any questions, but I know my baseball rules.

[simcrazy]

Originally Posted by simcrazy

Can anyone from OOTP please let me know if the following problem is being addressed?:

If a minor league player on your 40 man roster during spring training gets any type of injury that lingers into the year,

OR

If you have a minor league player that suffers an injury lasting more than 60 days,

the game handles it incorrectly.

In the first scenario, you cannot demote the minor league player and put on the minor league DL.

In the second scenario, the "AI" minor league manager puts the player on the 60 day DL where the player ACCRUES MAJOR LEAGUE SERVICE TIME instead of the minor league DL.

Please let us know this is being fixed! It really changes the game and is unrealistic.

Please let me know if you have any questions, but I know my baseball rules.

I haven't gotten much response from this before. I am surprised - I would hate to lose a ton of service time to a top prospect who has to miss a significant amount of time. Doesn't seem like it would be that uncommon..

[Le Grande Orange]

The first issue is caused by OOTP not having a true 40-man off-season roster; the second issue is caused by the minor league 60-day DL not being recreated in the game.

[BMW]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

The first issue is caused by OOTP not having a true 40-man off-season roster; the second issue is caused by the minor league 60-day DL not being recreated in the game.

What's a true 40-man off-season roster?

Also, I mentioned it in another thread, but unless the minor league 7-Day DL forces you to activate the guy after 7 days, what's the need for a 60-Day minor league DL?

The 60-Day minor league DL doesn't let you free up a 40 man roster spot so functionally for OOTP purposes, I don't see where it differs from the new minor league DL. I don't see why it's so crucial to have it if you can just leave a guy on the 7 day DL for 5 months.

[sfeldkamp]

The game doesn't let you invite minor league players to spring training, you only get your 40 man roster players. So if a player is injured in spring training you can't demote, you must place on the the ML disabled list. This is all done to close a loop hole with service time and options (from what I've heard).

Unfortunately when you can't activate that player from the DL and option directly to the minor leagues, instead you have to place them on the active roster and then demote them to the minors and repromote whoever you demoted to make room for them.

It sucks, I demote players from ST who won't have a chance at the active roster as early as possible. Then I pray no one get's injured. Then when that does happen, I go into commissioner mode and fix it.

PS - I already reported this, but I didn't report the service time accrual on the 60 day DL issue.

[trapper]

I have been burned by this problem a number of times as well. I now turn off all injuries during spring training and turn them back on when I have my roster set to start the season.

[BMW]

Originally Posted by sfeldkamp

The game doesn't let you invite minor league players to spring training, you only get your 40 man roster players. So if a player is injured in spring training you can't demote, you must place on the the ML disabled list. This is all done to close a loop hole with service time and options (from what I've heard).

Unfortunately when you can't activate that player from the DL and option directly to the minor leagues, instead you have to place them on the active roster and then demote them to the minors and repromote whoever you demoted to make room for them.

It sucks, I demote players from ST who won't have a chance at the active roster as early as possible. Then I pray no one get's injured. Then when that does happen, I go into commissioner mode and fix it.

PS - I already reported this, but I didn't report the service time accrual on the 60 day DL issue.

I'm pretty sure that if you have a player on the 60 Day DL, if you right-click on the player when they are activated, you can send them to the minors directly. In one of my OOTP 9 leagues, I put non-prospects on the 60-Day DL all the time (because I don't care if they accrue service time, since they are 1-in-1000 longshots to ever have a major league career). And I believe I send them directly to the minors once their time is up by right-clicking them. I don't know about the 15 Day DL though.

Demoting players from the active roster who have no shot at making the roster is exactly how they do it in the big leagues. All major league teams start spring training with all their 40-Man roster guys on their Active roster. Then they need to option or pass players through waivers to get them to the minors.

It isn't just there to fix a loophole, that's actually how the MLB does it. In the offseason, there is no substantive difference between the Active roster and 40-Man roster.

I don't believe the player's union would allow a team to shuttle some guy off to AAA after he breaks his arm so he won't accrue service time. If you get injured while on the Active roster, including when you are at spring training, then you go on the major league DL.

If you are on a major league DL, you accrue service time, even if you're a really huge prospect who didn't actually have a good chance to make the club that season. The quality of the player or their chance of making the club don't factor into the rule.

I would argue that it is an issue if the AI manager takes a player that is already in the minors and places him on the 60 Day DL, unless the team needs to free up a 40 Man roster spot. That's why you'd do this the MLB. If I had Brian Schnieder, Ramon Castro and Omir Santos as my only catchers on my 40 man roster, if Castro is on the DL, and Omir was injured in the minors, I would have to consider putting Castro or Santos on the 60 Day DL if all my 40 Man slots were used up.

But a lot of the other issues are just referencing very obscure but genuine MLB rules that most people assume are bugs.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by BMW

What's a true 40-man off-season roster?

During the off-season, OOTP maintains a 25-man active roster and a 40-man secondary roster. This is not how it works in reality; in the off-season there is only the 40-man roster. The active limit of 25 players only applies to the regular season (and then only until Sept. 1).

Originally Posted by BMW

The 60-Day minor league DL doesn't let you free up a 40 man roster spot so functionally for OOTP purposes, I don't see where it differs from the new minor league DL.

In the real world, the 60-day minor league DL operates just like the major league one, and players on the 60-day DL don't count against either the minor league's active limit or reserve limit.

[BMW]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

During the off-season, OOTP maintains a 25-man active roster and a 40-man secondary roster. This is not how it works in reality; in the off-season there is only the 40-man roster. The active limit of 25 players only applies to the regular season (and then only until Sept. 1).

True, but at the level of complexity that is needed OOTP, doesn't placing all the players on the 40 Man roster at the start of spring training approximate this? Is there something else that happens during the off season in OOTP that would be improved if you had the expanded roster?

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

In the real world, the 60-day minor league DL operates just like the major league one, and players on the 60-day DL don't count against either the minor league's active limit or reserve limit.

But what about the major league's reserve limit?

Are you suggesting that a player in the minors who is on your 40 Man roster can be put on the minor league 60 Day DL and then no longer be counted against your 40 Man roster?

[jar2574]

Why is my minor league player accruing service time during the regular season when he is placed on the 60-day minor league DL? That's an issue that I hope is resolved in the next patch.

Can't be too hard. Just eliminate the minor league 60-day DL. Why have it?

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by BMW

True, but at the level of complexity that is needed OOTP, doesn't placing all the players on the 40 Man roster at the start of spring training approximate this?

It's a workaround to solve another problem caused by the incorrect off-season roster limit setup.

Originally Posted by BMW

Is there something else that happens during the off season in OOTP that would be improved if you had the expanded roster?

Actually, that's backwards: it's not an expanded roster during the last season and off-season, it's a reduced roster during the early and middle parts of the season. Clubs are permitted to have 40 players under contract; it's just that from opening day to Sept. 1 that has to be further trimmed to 25 players at the major league level, with the other 15 players on option in the minors.

It used to be clubs were permitted to have up to all 40 players at the major league level for the first 30 days of the regular season (or up to a fixed date such as May 15). In 1957 that was reduced to 28 players at the major league level for the first 30 days of the season. Then, in 1968, it was reduced again to 25 players from opening day.

Originally Posted by BMW

Are you suggesting that a player in the minors who is on your 40 Man roster can be put on the minor league 60 Day DL and then no longer be counted against your 40 Man roster?

To be honest, I'm not exactly sure what happens to players on option in the minors. A player in the minors outright gets placed on the minor league club's 7-day or 60-day DL. A player on the major league active roster goes on the major league 15-day or 60-day DL.

My reading of the DL rules from earlier years suggests the major league DL only applies to players actually on the major league active roster, and players on option in the minors go on the minor league DL. This makes sense considering that the point of the major league DL is to allow the club to replace the injured player on the 25-man active roster.

I'm not sure if that's really the case though. It is an interesting question.

[Markus Heinsohn]

The problem is that we need to make design decisions in these areas of the game to simplify certain aspects. If we stuck to the rules 100%, you'd have to read a book to play the game, and the interface would be even more complicated.

[Killing Time]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

The problem is that we need to make design decisions in these areas of the game to simplify certain aspects. If we stuck to the rules 100%, you'd have to read a book to play the game, and the interface would be even more complicated.

I for one would not mind the complexity. Also I think you badly underestimate the baseball knowledge of your customers.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by Killing Time

I for one would not mind the complexity. Also I think you badly underestimate the baseball knowledge of your customers.

I too am in this camp...I'd like to see MLB rules adhered to.

[BMW]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

It's a workaround to solve another problem caused by the incorrect off-season roster limit setup.

Actually, that's backwards: it's not an expanded roster during the last season and off-season, it's a reduced roster during the early and middle parts of the season. Clubs are permitted to have 40 players under contract; it's just that from opening day to Sept. 1 that has to be further trimmed to 25 players at the major league level, with the other 15 players on option in the minors.

It used to be clubs were permitted to have up to all 40 players at the major league level for the first 30 days of the regular season (or up to a fixed date such as May 15). In 1957 that was reduced to 28 players at the major league level for the first 30 days of the season. Then, in 1968, it was reduced again to 25 players from opening day.


To be honest, I'm not exactly sure what happens to players on option in the minors. A player in the minors outright gets placed on the minor league club's 7-day or 60-day DL. A player on the major league active roster goes on the major league 15-day or 60-day DL.

My reading of the DL rules from earlier years suggests the major league DL only applies to players actually on the major league active roster, and players on option in the minors go on the minor league DL. This makes sense considering that the point of the major league DL is to allow the club to replace the injured player on the 25-man active roster.

I'm not sure if that's really the case though. It is an interesting question

Your knowledge on the baseball transaction rules is wondrous; you always make me feel like a rookie on the subject, which is hard to do given how many years I've been researching and studying them.

I came to the same conclusion on the minor league DL that I think you did. After reading the old and current Collective Bargaining Agreement, I didn't see anything that really talks about the nature of minor league DL. I would highly suspect that the 60 Day minor league DL does not confer the benefits that the major league version does.

I understand what you're saying about the nature of the roster in the offseason, but my point was that in order to simulate it primary effect on the game, you just need to ensure that all the players are on the active roster at the start of spring training and need to be optioned or placed on waivers to the minors.

That's the end you need to get to, the means by which you get there doesn't seem to be that important. So long as I'm not perpetually sneaking guys to the minors and keeping their option years. Whether or not it comes by having all the players on the Active roster from Nov-Mar or placing them all on the Active roster on the start of spring training gets you to that goal either way.

The only other detriment that I recall was that the roster would revert to 25 players when the playoffs began, causing online leagues some trouble when people left their rosters with the extra players. That may even have been fixed by ignoring the overages, I can't recall since I don't admin online leagues.

Originally Posted by Killing Time

I for one would not mind the complexity. Also I think you badly underestimate the baseball knowledge of your customers.

Game design isn't about making everything hyper-realistic. I have always been astounded by the complexity that Markus puts into the design of OOTP; I honestly never thought I'd ever see the features and customization that are in OOTP in a baseball game. It doesn't need to be complex for complexity's sake.

That can lead to poor game design, because the game does need to be accessible to people who aren't members of SABR, people who haven't worked in a baseball front office and aren't obsessive-compulsive about baseball transaction rules.

You don't have to transport stone from Rome to Naples in Sid Meier's Civilization games to build a road. It would be much more realistic if you needed to do that, but less fun. You don't need to use the lavatory in Half Life 2 or properly clean and maintain your rifles in Call of Duty. You don't need to order the Gatorade for the sidelines in NFL 2K9. The MLB requires that you have a certified report by a doctor on their standard injury form in order to place someone on the disabled list. You don't need or want to have to go through these motions for the sake of realism alone.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

The problem is that we need to make design decisions in these areas of the game to simplify certain aspects. If we stuck to the rules 100%, you'd have to read a book to play the game, and the interface would be even more complicated.

I understand your concerns in this regard, but I think that, in some cases, rules simplifications cause unintended negative issues in other areas. What exactly is being simplified and why might need some re-examining in order to ensure unintended consequences don't happen (well, at least as much as one can realistically do).

I also think that complexity need not mean a complex interface. It all comes down to how the options are organized and presented. There are ways to make complicated things more user-friendly, though it does take a fair amount of planning and thinking about.

[tysok]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

I understand your concerns in this regard, but I think that, in some cases, rules simplifications cause unintended negative issues in other areas. What exactly is being simplified and why might need some re-examining in order to ensure unintended consequences don't happen (well, at least as much as one can realistically do).

I also think that complexity need not mean a complex interface. It all comes down to how the options are organized and presented. There are ways to make complicated things more user-friendly, though it does take a fair amount of planning and thinking about.

From what I understand here, this thread is basically talking about injuries and spring training. The biggest problems seems that minor league players put on the 60 day DL build ML service time... whether that is putting them on a minor league 60 day DL as well I don't know.

I did some looking around earlier today, and I can't locate any instance of a minor league player being put on the DL during spring training. Every transaction I see is a player being sent down to the minors during spring training... I do see some of thos players go on the DL after they've been sent down. Whether, in every instance, the player is perfectly healthy and cut from spring training and after being sent down gets injured and put on the DL I have no way of knowing... but from what limited info I see it appears that the rules for spring training are different. That an injured player can be demoted during spring training, and put on the DL there and not be forced to sit and build up service time just because he was hurt while wearing the ML uniform.

That isn't a question of complexity and rules. It appears that this thread is dealing with one rule, and it's implementation in OOTP is wrong (maybe).

[BMW]

Originally Posted by tysok

From what I understand here, this thread is basically talking about injuries and spring training. The biggest problems seems that minor league players put on the 60 day DL build ML service time... whether that is putting them on a minor league 60 day DL as well I don't know.

I did some looking around earlier today, and I can't locate any instance of a minor league player being put on the DL during spring training. Every transaction I see is a player being sent down to the minors during spring training... I do see some of thos players go on the DL after they've been sent down. Whether, in every instance, the player is perfectly healthy and cut from spring training and after being sent down gets injured and put on the DL I have no way of knowing... but from what limited info I see it appears that the rules for spring training are different. That an injured player can be demoted during spring training, and put on the DL there and not be forced to sit and build up service time just because he was hurt while wearing the ML uniform.

That isn't a question of complexity and rules. It appears that this thread is dealing with one rule, and it's implementation in OOTP is wrong (maybe).

Fernando Perez, Padres. 60 career MLB at bats. Placed on the 40 Man roster in Nov, 2007.

That means he's used one option year so far, in 2008. He was injured in spring training on 3/12/2009. He was placed on the 60-Day Major League DL on 3/22/2009. So, he's accruing service time, as per the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

This would be your poster boy to send to the minors after he was injured on in spring training if that were allowed.

[tysok]

Originally Posted by BMW

Fernando Perez, Padres. 60 career MLB at bats. Placed on the 40 Man roster in Nov, 2007.

That means he's used one option year so far, in 2008. He was injured in spring training on 3/12/2009. He was placed on the 60-Day Major League DL on 3/22/2009. So, he's accruing service time, as per the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

This would be your poster boy to send to the minors after he was injured on in spring training if that were allowed.

I agree there.
If I missed someone saying they know definitively that any player injured in spring training and put on the 60 day DL accrues service time then I will say case closed and move on. I don't recall reading that though.

In your case, this guy obviously isn't a minor leaguer that's in spring training simply to get a little work going at the ML level. He had 60 at bats, hit .250, and looks like he finished off the year at the ML level last season. He was up there to make the team.
Of course the rules aren't going to have anything subjective like that in them, it's either yes or no based on a set of facts.

What I have is entirely circumstantial, I can't find solid information anywhere. Here's what I see:
I've found 4 guys who were in spring training, and at some point were obviously trimmed off the spring training roster.
Sometimes in the first 4 days of the season (April 6-10) these guys went on the 60 day DL.
None of these guys have had any service time at all, no ML stats whatsoever. As far as I can find they still have no service time.
It seems a little convenient to be cut off the ST roster at some point, yet all 4 went on the 60 day DL in the same span within 4 days of MLBs opening day.

Going further.
After 3 years of MLB service the player is part of the pension. So if a minor league scrub who's never played is unlucky enough to come to spring training 3 years in a row, get injured, and spend the season on the 60 day DL he'll be part of the pension without ever having done anything at the major league level. We know the team wouldn't like that idea, and I don't think the players would care for that idea... so I'm not sure how that could get through as a rule.
A player on the 60 day DL would still get paid right? If he's accruing service time he would be paid a ML salary right? So a guy who's in ST just to get a little work at the ML level for a while gets injured, and the team now has to pay this guy the league minimum until he's off, even though he never really had a shot to be on the team this year. I don't see how that could get through.

With all that, I wonder about the rules. Is it possible that if the guy has previous service time and is injured in ST he would go on the ML 60 day DL and accrue service time? Otherwise he's still considered a minor league player and would just be demoted and put on the 60 day DL there? That would cover the player you mention... obviously a guy who has a legitimate shot at making the team, but just got injured, while not allowing a guy who is just still in the hoping stage to get fed into the system (but would obviously use an option no matter the length of injury)... which would cover the guys I've been looking at.

I don't know for sure. If anyone does, then knowledge is power and wins all.

[wish7694]

The 60 day and service time issue is simple. If you were on the active regular season roster when injured you accrue service time, if in the minors when injured and placed on the 60 day DL you do not get service time.

In other words Kelvim Escobar is getting service time, those guys described above are not.

In spring training teams just demote guys when injured. In September they often don't even bother to put a guy on the DL since there is no roster need to do so.

The easy fix is to allow injured guys to be demoted during spring training (those demoted would still be subject to whatever option and waiver status they would be if demoted during the regular season). If Markus thinks this is to complex for us to understand we can agree to disagree.