New HW Boxers Rated

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Rasmuth,

Thanks for you posting. I'd actually come across your site some time back.

Rocco

[JeffR]

Originally posted by bplotkin
A few quick questions--if anyone could chime in I'd really appreciate it.

(1) The three Muhammad Ali's--can someone spell out which career span each one covers?

(2) Simulating the Ali-Holmes fight--I know Holmes would be Prime--but which Ali do I use--and what career setting--Post-Prime, or End?

(3) Simulating the Duran-Leonard fight--which Leonard do I use?

(4) Simulating the Leonard-Hagler fights--which Leonard do I use, and what career setting?

Thanks to anyone who can help!

1- "Louisville Lip" is 1960-67, "The Greatest" is after that. The other one is a career-average.

2. Jim says End, although I find that tends to make his chin a little too vulnerable. Maybe post-prime and a bad conditioning setting like "inactive".

3. I'd say pre-prime for Leonard-Duran I, prime for Leonard-Duran II.

4. Post-prime for both of them.

[djday45]

Here is another missing middleweight.

Sumbu Kalambay
Nationality - Italian
Born - 1956
Career 1980-1993

CFB/S 13/13
HP 4
CKD 1
CKO 3
REC 1
CUTS 1
AP 2
KI 5
AGG 7
END 9
DEF -4
FS 2
FOR 1
DRAW 3
PL 42
CP 44
PMISS 62
CL 68
COND 2
INT 8
STYLE - BOXER
FOUL - SEL
FI 1
FO 3
CU 2
KO 2
Jab 25.75/6.5
Hook 9.75/2.5
Cross 15.75/4.5
Comb 19/5.25
Upp 9/2
Overall rating 9

rgds
Dean

[vistaman44]

Dean;
Hadn't noticed he was missing, yet, but Kalambay was one of the colorful guys in the 1980s. Definitely belongs. I will add him to my datatbase over the holidays, along with Zech, Cane and the older Al McCoy (there's also a heavyweight trialhorse by that name). Thanks!

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Peter Weiland-5 Overall Rating
Nationality-German
b. 1940-03-31
d.
Career, 1964-71
BoxRec. 021210
Record 26 wins / 6 losses / 2 draws / 18 KO
Another of the more promenant German HW's of the mid to late 60's. He lost to Zech in 67 for the German HW title but turned around in 68 and beat Blin who had beaten Zech for the title. Weiland won the European HW Title in late 69, but then in his last 2 career fights in April 70, and Jan. 71 lost the European title to Jose Urtain and then the German title to a Horst Benedens. I'm not sure about the overall of 5 for him compared to a 3 for Zech. I originally had him a 4 the game rated him a 5 after plugging in the numbers!? I'm getting anxious to plug in a few more of these fringe HW's for the 60's and start some play testing !

Control vs Boxer--8
Control vs Slugger--8
Hitting power--6
Chin vs knockdown--4
Chin vs knockout--3
Recovery--3
Cuts--2
Absorb punishment--2
Killer instinct--8
Aggressiveness--7
Endurance--7
Defense--2
Fast starter--2
Fight on ropes--2

Draw power--4
Conditioning--3
Intellect--3
Proficiency--10

Fight inside--3
Outside--2
Cover up--2
Go for KO--1
Clinching--71

Style--Slugger
Fouls--Seldom

Punches 2-pt. 3-pt.
Jabs 15.00 3.75
Hooks 18.75 6.25
Crosses 18.75 6.25
Combinations 8.75 3.75
Uppercuts 16.25 2.50

Punching--38
Counterpunching--40
Missed--64

[djday45]

Thks Mark, It's nice to have a palce to share ratings.

Here is another missing middleweight - Frank Mantell.


Frank Mantell
Nation - Germany
Born 1886 Died 1951
Career 1906-1923

CFB/S 11/10
HP 1
CKD 3
CKO 4
REC 4
CUT 1
AP 3
KI 6
AGG 7
END 10
DEF 0
FS 3
FR 2
DP 2
PL 38
CP 40
PM 62
CL 70
COND 2
INT 7
STYLE BOXER
FOUL SELDOM
FI 2
FO 2
CU 1
KO 1
JAB 35
HOOK 25
CROSS 25
COMB 9
UPP 6

rgds
Dean

[jabbo]

Rocco,

I am enjoying your ratings. For you and others, I have a question? How much are your ratings based on viewing a fighter, how much on newspaper and other accounts, and how much from the fighters' records?

I agree with you that a 5 rating for Weiland seems very high. I think I remember him as a thick-chested, bald fellow - or maybe I'm confusing him with someone else.

Jabbo

[vistaman44]

Jabbo;
I will be posting some fighters I have created after the first of the year when I have a bit more time. I did some for the board game way back, and others for the TF2001 and its predecessor computer games more recently.

From me, the posts will be a combination of eyewitness opinion and record-based comparative performance from 1968 forward --- and mostly mathematical, based on records and my TF/TB experience over the last nearly 20 years, for those earlier than that time (I'm dating myself!).

[Rasmuth]

personally...I used boxrec.com as a reference and see who a fighter has fought who is already in the game....then I playtest the fighter to death until I get acceptable results. Also...I'll do a "google" search to see if I can get any other info about a fighter if anything is available.

Playtesting is the key.

[vistaman44]

Right, Rasmuth. Exactly what I do on all, but particularly on the older ones. Great minds think alike! LOL

[Rocco Del Sesto]

As I mentioned I'm pretty new and raw at this "art" or science which ever you wish to call it, of rating fighters. I got interested into boxing through title bout actually. When I purchased TF2001 that's when I became intrigued more with the ratings and trying to rate additional fighters. My interest right now is to expand the HW's as mentioned. I don't have much as far as historical data to back anything up. I have a couple books is all on boxing history. I try to do some searching on the internet on a fighter. That is in fact how I found out Zech was a Lefty. Found something somewhere on that. So to start rating a guy, I look him up on BoxRec and compare his record and who he's boxed and look for someone already rated that looks something like a similar record and competition. That's what I've done with the guys thus far who I've posted here. Now I'm starting with the play testing to do some statistical comparison to better fine tune things.

I've started with Zech and have run off 200 bouts with him against the HW's of his time from 1967-1970 time period I've used in the scheduler. The results I got show that I do have some things to adjust. To show you some results and maybe you all can suggest needed changes(again, I'm raw and just learning this).

Record
Actual 36-11-3-22KO 72% W% Replay 102-90-8-53KO 51% W%

KO% Actual 44% Replay 26.5%
KO's Suffered Actual 5 for 10% Replay 51 for 25.5%
Ave Rounds for KO Actual 5.1 Replay 5.8
Ave Rounds suffered KO Actual 3.6 Replay 5.4
Ave Rounds/fight Actual 6.3 Replay 7.6
KO/TKO's Actual 15/7 Replay 30/23

Now looking at this you would assume some adjustment needed. Question I have that some of you all might help me with is, these replays are done against the higher crop of fighters during his time. All fighters you look at the records, they're fattened up especially early in a fighter's career against the "lower class". Probably a higher percentage of quicker fights, more KO's against those "lower class" fighters that we don't have the luxery of having rating in TBCB to play test against. Any suggestion on how to account for that when thinking about adjusting records.?

[swampdragon]

I looked at Zech on boxrec. I think he's a very good example for what you are trying to do. Zech's record started out at 24-1-1, at least half of those 24 wins being against what Heavyweight earlier called German tomato cans. After that, during the time he was fighting many fighters with ratings higher than 1, he was 12-10-2, which is remarkably similar to your results. This is very typical of the career of a lot of fighters. I think when you are running your simulations, you either have to allow for that initial period or create a bunch of generic tomato cans to throw into the simulations. Rasmuth's middleweight project has a number of suitable fighters who could be used as generic tomato cans of varying types and abilities.
I don't think that you necessarily need to adjust Zech based on the results you obtained. Allowing for "strength of schedule", the results really look pretty good. Actually, those results are a little better than I would have expected against fighters already good enough to be in the game.

[Rocco Del Sesto]

You thoughts on creating a bunch of "generic tomato cans" was what I was thinking about also on my way home for work tonight. I think what I'm going to do next is create some of those "tomato cans", hey a new term for when we talk about the boxing scrubs!, and simulate Zech's whole career to the actual fighters he fought who are rated. I'll let you all know how it comes out. You might be right swampdragon in that I may not have to do much with Zech's ratings.

Rocco

[wildhawke11]

You guys who have never put a boxing glove on in your life should try going in for real against some of these so called *tomato cans* LOL

Yes i know its an expression just like *bums*
Merry Christmas Gentlemen.

[swampdragon]

Wildhawke,

I fully realize there isn't a single fighter in the game I could last two rounds with. I also enjoy baseball sims, even though I couldn't hit a fast ball back in school, much less a curve. When we use these terms, we are comparing the lesser fighters to the best of the best, the 3000+ in the game vs. the 200,000+ fighters on boxrec. Whether we call them bums, scrubs, or tomato cans, we know it is a comparative term. No offense is intended, particularly to those on this board who were actually good enough to box professionally.
Merry Christmas.

[djday45]

Hi Guys, here are three more middleweights.

Eddie McCoorty
USA
Career 1905-1922
Born 1889
Died 1929

CFB/S 10/9
HP 8
CKD 2
CKO 3
REC 3
CUT 1
AP 3
KI 8
AGG 8
END 9
DEF 0
FS 2
FR 2
DP 4
PL 38
CP 40
PM 62
CL 69
COND 2
INT 6
STYLE EITHER
FOUL OCC
FI 2
FO 2
CU 1
KO 3

JAB 19.25/3.5
HOOK 13.75/4
CROSS 23.75/10.25
COMB 6.5/2.25
UPP 12/4.75



Cyclone Johnny Thompson
USA
Career 1902-1914
Born 1876
Died 1951

CFB/S 9/11
HP 4
CKD 1
CKO 1
REC 1
CUT 1
AP 2
KI 6
AGG 7
END 8
DEF 0
FS 0
FR 3
DP 4
PL 44
CP 40
PM 65
CL 73
COND 3
INT 6
STYLE BOXER
FOUL OCC
FI 2
FO 3
CU 2
KO 1

JAB 23.75/3
HOOK 21.5/3.25
CROSS 10.75/1.25
COMB 10.75/6
UPP 7.75/1.75



Micheal Watson
UK
Career 1984-1991
Born 1965

CFB/S 10/11
HP 6
CKD 2
CKO 2
REC 3
CUT 1
AP 4
KI 7
AGG 8
END 8
DEF -2
FS 1
FR 2
DP 4
PL 40
CP 42
PM 60
CL 67
COND 2
INT 8
STYLE BOXER
FOUL SELDOM
FI 1
FO 3
CU 2
KO 2

JAB 20.75/7.5
HOOK 13.5/3
CROSS 15.25/4
COMB 15.25/5
UPP 12.5/3.25



Happy Christmas all

Rgds
Dean

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Great! Thanks for sharing those MW's Dean!

Rocco

[swampdragon]

Dean,

I believe your first MW should be Eddie McGoorty. He may be in the game, but I'll have to check. Thanks for Cyclone Johnny Thompson. My historical replay, currently cruising along in mid-1881, will need him. I figure I'm about 200,000 fights away from using Watson, but I'm glad to have him as well.

[Cap]

Boy, I can't win for losing. I had a brilliant post nearly done, when this piece of crap of a PC I'm stuck with decided to make it all disappear.

Hope you all have better years than my recent days.

Merry Christmas!

Cap (taking a few practice swings at my PC with a baseball bat)

[swampdragon]

I checked. McGoorty is not in the game and should have been. He is a very welcome addition.