Batting Order Question

jamieson5000 · 07-12-2016, 10:58 PM

Hi there!

New to the game of OOTP, picked it up about a week ago and loving it.

I'm from Australia, so kinda don't understand all of the rules and strategies.

I have a question on batting order. Is there an optimum or strategy to this? Should I be putting my best batters at the top? Should I be rotating my batters in and out of the team on a daily basis to keep them fresh? Or is it best to keep them in the squad if they are on a hot streak??

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Thanks again!

Number4 · 07-13-2016, 01:19 AM

There is a lot of false information in baseball floating around. Only in the modern times, through statistical analysis, proper optimized lineups are possible. Regrettably, some people are resistant to new information and there might be people advocating a "traditional" lineup. Please ignore them.

Your best 3 hitters should bat in the #1,#2 and #4 spots. #1 should have the highest on base percentage, #4 the highest extra base power, #2 be the most balanced.
You should follow then by #3 and #5. Usually, the better player goes in #5, but not if he has a lot of home run power - then in #3.
At last, players #6 to #9 in descending order of quality. However, if you have a pitcher batting, he should be #8 instead of #9 - having a bad batter in front of your top of the lineup hurts their performance.

If you are interested in the math, the link is here:
Optimizing Order, Part 1: How To Build The Ideal Lineup - Bluebird Banter

About rotation: You should certainly not rotate them daily. However, sometimes rest days might help.
Catchers need the most rest days, about every 5 games.
Other position players need less rest days, and DH as well as 1B could probably go the whole season without a single additional rest day beyond what the schedule provides anyway.
I would usually only rest your players if the game shows a "battery" symbol next to him.

Another important concept to learn is "platooning" - having one player start against lefthand pitchers and another against righthanders. The player who starts against lefties will usually bat right and the against righties bat left.
This gives them an advantage against the pitchers, and if the opponent brings an opposite-handed reliever, you can counter by using the benched player as pinch-hitter. Keeps both of them usually fresh too.

jamieson5000 · 07-13-2016, 03:40 AM

Many thanks for that, will try that out tonight!!

Follow up question. A good teams winning % seems to be around 0.600? So if your winning % is say around 0.500 and above your having a particularly good season??

monkeystyxx · 07-13-2016, 04:00 AM

I'd like to preface this by saying I agree with Number4, I'm merely giving you the "traditional" approach he mentions for contrast.

Common baseball wisdom, before them young'uns got to baseball with their calculators and such, was as follows:

1: Best OBP guy. You want him to get on base by any means necessary. Should also be fast, as you don't want to hold up anyone on base behind him.
2: Second best OBP guy.
3: Best overall hitter, because if the other two don't make it you don't want the inning to end before you get to #4.
4: Your best power hitter, the home run scorer. The idea is that if he's going to hit home runs, it's more efficient if he does so with men on base already. More runs for less effort that way.
5: Your best remaining overall hitter. You need him to be dangerous enough that the pitcher doesn't think it's safer to intentionally walk the home run hitter instead of letting him hit. You want this guy to be almost as dangerous.

6-9 in order of quality, with your pitcher hitting 9th.

Slightly updated baseball wisdom has the pitcher hitting 8th, and the traditional #2 guy batting 9th.

The problem with these systems is, they only work for the first inning. The #4 guy may never bat fourth in any other inning. And if the first three strike out, he's leading off in the second. Also, your #3, #4 and #5 guys are probably all better hitters than your #1 and #2, but will get fewer plate appearances over the course of a season, which is counterproductive. The theory Number4 mentioned above is the one I use. Being a Pirates fan, numbers are all we've got in our favour, and they don't have a dollar sign in front.

As for winning percentage, .500 is what everyone strives for. Under that, you've had a losing season.

The majority of playoff teams will get 90 wins (55.5%) or above. 90 is considered the target for teams at the start of the year, although it by no means guarantees playoff baseball (last season the Pirates won 98 and only finished second in our division, then lost the wildcard game. The Cubs won 97 and finished third, then beat us).

Only one team since 1996 has won 94 games and not qualified for the playoffs (including wild card games as part of the playoffs, which is silly but is the current trend).

The lowest number of wins to qualify for the playoffs since 1996 is 86 (90 in the National League).

So yeah, tl;dr version, at the start of the season, your target is generally .500. Win more than you lose. Anything above that is good. If you're contending for the post season, 94 games is generally the mark you want to aim for, but is not set in stone.

Winning 100 or more games is really good. The MLB record is 116 wins (Seattle in 2001, and the Chicago Cubs the last time they were this good in 1906... I mean, when there were fewer games, which is therefore a better record (still lost that World Series though...)).

On the flip side, 119 is the record set for losses over a 162 game season (Detroit, 2003). Anything over 90 losses is a bit embarrassing. In 1899 the Cleveland Spiders lost 134 games out of 164.

Leo_The_Lip · 07-13-2016, 09:43 AM

The record for losses in a162 game season is 120, by the expansion Mets in 1962.

BigRed75 · 07-13-2016, 10:31 AM

Don't bat your pitcher in the #8 spot, unless you want to appear too clever by half. In which case, by all means, give more at bats to your worst hitters and less at bats to one of your best players at getting on base.

Bat the pitcher at #9. Besides, the lineup is just going to get juggled around after your starting pitcher leaves the game.

Rain King · 07-13-2016, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRed75

Don't bat your pitcher in the #8 spot, unless you want to appear too clever by half. In which case, by all means, give more at bats to your worst hitters and less at bats to one of your best players at getting on base.

Bat the pitcher at #9. Besides, the lineup is just going to get juggled around after your starting pitcher leaves the game.

Part of the strategy of batting your pitcher 8th is that he is going to be pinch hit for later in games and those hitters are typically better than the worst hitter in your lineup, so you are actually moving those guys up a spot. Batting the pitcher 8th is fine strategy, but just like any single changes in baseball the resulting effect is small and needs a large sample size to play out.

Number4 · 07-13-2016, 11:24 AM

And the other part should be obvious: By having your worst hitter bat in front of your best, those best guys will more often come up with bases empty and fewer outs left. n contrast, you lose out on driving in your #5-#7 hitters by batting the pitcher #8.
People did the numbers, and turned out by batting the pitcher #8, you'll get additional runs over the season. Batting the pitcher #9 and batting him #7 are equivalent.

Baseball was played for over a hundred years without access to proper statistics. Batting your worst player last is logical conventional wisdom, so it somehow became almost a holy rule. But modern statistics proved that the effect of giving him more at bats in the #8 spot isn't enough to overcome the advantages it provides.

thehef · 07-13-2016, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rain King

Part of the strategy of batting your pitcher 8th is that he is going to be pinch hit for later in games and those hitters are typically better than the worst hitter in your lineup, so you are actually moving those guys up a spot. Batting the pitcher 8th is fine strategy, but just like any single changes in baseball the resulting effect is small and needs a large sample size to play out.

If the position player that you are considering batting in the 9-hole is a weak hitter then he, too, is pretty unlikely to get on base for your better hitters at the top of the order, and is also a likely candidate to be pinch-hit for later in a close game.

At any rate, even if there is contemporary baseball logic in batting the pitcher 8th, I would almost never consider it since I play mostly historical. That would be like pulling Koufax after 6 innings simply because he hit the 90-pitch mark... and then using 8 relievers to get through the last few innings...

jamieson5000 · 07-14-2016, 04:15 AM

A big thank you for all of the replies.

I don't know if it's a coincidence, but I changed my batting order to suite the above, and now my batters are striking out a lot worse than they use to. On average my batters strike out about 8 times a game, but its getting up to about 12-16???

I sacked the hitting coach and brought a new guy in, but I don't think that has helped much.

Also my pitchers seem to have gone sour with 2 going cold.... And not striking out as much either... Sack the pitching coach??

I've had 2 lots of 7 game loosing streaks as well...

Is this what management is all about???

Playing as Baltimore FYI...

Number4 · 07-14-2016, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamieson5000

A big thank you for all of the replies.

I don't know if it's a coincidence, but I changed my batting order to suite the above, and now my batters are striking out a lot worse than they use to. On average my batters strike out about 8 times a game, but its getting up to about 12-16???

I sacked the hitting coach and brought a new guy in, but I don't think that has helped much.

Also my pitchers seem to have gone sour with 2 going cold.... And not striking out as much either... Sack the pitching coach??

I've had 2 lots of 7 game loosing streaks as well...

Is this what management is all about???

Playing as Baltimore FYI...

No. Be way more patient! Teams that are the best dynasty in a generation still win only 66% of the time, teams that literally have traded away all their best players and are playing with cheap replacements win 33%.
And you might have made errors somewhere, leading to some of the losses being on you, not the team. This simply happens if you're new to baseball.

BBGiovanni · 07-14-2016, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamieson5000

Many thanks for that, will try that out tonight!!

Follow up question. A good teams winning % seems to be around 0.600? So if your winning % is say around 0.500 and above your having a particularly good season??

Part of the definition of "good season" depends on what kind of league you play in and its playoff rules. Some minor leagues play split seasons so extra teams qualify, for example... if you are in first place at the all star break you go to the playoffs no matter how terrible you end the season!

For MLB, a good rule of thumb/goal is: try to win 2 out of 3 games in a series. That would work out to be a 106-win season, which would be outstanding. As you say, multiple 7-game losing streaks are a bad sign... but the O's are not the strongest team in the world either. Another way this is often described: the best teams will lose at least 60 games, and the worst teams will win at least 60 games. It's the other 42 games that decide their fate

and yours.

Finally, you should know that there are many stories of managers including Casey Stengel and Billy Martin literally drawing lineups at random and having success with them (generally as a stunt to break up a batting slump). So, don't get too bogged down in sabermetric dogma or even traditional "bat the RBI man 4th" things. Keep the better hitters at the top of the lineup, and the worse hitters towards the bottom so they come to bat less. I don't usually play DH games, but if I do happen to have a mediocre hitter that runs better than the other choices to hit 7-8-9, I'll put him 9th in hopes he can score on a base hit from the leadoff batters or even steal to get into scoring position.

I don't go much for batting the pitcher 8th, unless he is Babe Ruth or Madison Bumgarner and usually not even then. Like RedFan75, I understand that over the course of all at-bats taken by all baseball teams over the course of 10 seasons the pitcher-8th method might lead to marginally more runs over all those games, but I'd rather minimize the number of pitcher ABs over that period.

Leo_The_Lip · 07-14-2016, 09:51 PM

On losing streaks, study probability and you will learn that a team that is truly .500 is likely (66 percent, if my memory serves) to experience an eight game losing streak and an eight game winning streak at least once per season.

So don't worry.

Also changing coaches has no bearing on current performance in OOTP, only on development--which takes time to occur.

07-14-2016, 09:51 PM	#13
Leo_The_Lip All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 1,703	On losing streaks, study probability and you will learn that a team that is truly .500 is likely (66 percent, if my memory serves) to experience an eight game losing streak and an eight game winning streak at least once per season. So don't worry. Also changing coaches has no bearing on current performance in OOTP, only on development--which takes time to occur. __________________ "My name will live forever" - Anonymous

07-12-2016, 10:58 PM	#1
jamieson5000 Bat Boy Join Date: Jul 2016 Posts: 4	Batting Order Question Hi there! New to the game of OOTP, picked it up about a week ago and loving it. I'm from Australia, so kinda don't understand all of the rules and strategies. I have a question on batting order. Is there an optimum or strategy to this? Should I be putting my best batters at the top? Should I be rotating my batters in and out of the team on a daily basis to keep them fresh? Or is it best to keep them in the squad if they are on a hot streak?? Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks again!

07-13-2016, 01:19 AM	#2
Number4 Major Leagues Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 460	There is a lot of false information in baseball floating around. Only in the modern times, through statistical analysis, proper optimized lineups are possible. Regrettably, some people are resistant to new information and there might be people advocating a "traditional" lineup. Please ignore them. Your best 3 hitters should bat in the #1,#2 and #4 spots. #1 should have the highest on base percentage, #4 the highest extra base power, #2 be the most balanced. You should follow then by #3 and #5. Usually, the better player goes in #5, but not if he has a lot of home run power - then in #3. At last, players #6 to #9 in descending order of quality. However, if you have a pitcher batting, he should be #8 instead of #9 - having a bad batter in front of your top of the lineup hurts their performance. If you are interested in the math, the link is here: Optimizing Order, Part 1: How To Build The Ideal Lineup - Bluebird Banter About rotation: You should certainly not rotate them daily. However, sometimes rest days might help. Catchers need the most rest days, about every 5 games. Other position players need less rest days, and DH as well as 1B could probably go the whole season without a single additional rest day beyond what the schedule provides anyway. I would usually only rest your players if the game shows a "battery" symbol next to him. Another important concept to learn is "platooning" - having one player start against lefthand pitchers and another against righthanders. The player who starts against lefties will usually bat right and the against righties bat left. This gives them an advantage against the pitchers, and if the opponent brings an opposite-handed reliever, you can counter by using the benched player as pinch-hitter. Keeps both of them usually fresh too. __________________ "Odor is now 2 for 5 today" (Commentator, after Rougned Odor, up to then 1 for 4, punched Jose Bautista square in the face.) Last edited by Number4; 07-13-2016 at 01:21 AM.

07-13-2016, 03:40 AM	#3
jamieson5000 Bat Boy Join Date: Jul 2016 Posts: 4	Many thanks for that, will try that out tonight!! Follow up question. A good teams winning % seems to be around 0.600? So if your winning % is say around 0.500 and above your having a particularly good season??

07-13-2016, 04:00 AM	#4
monkeystyxx Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 293	I'd like to preface this by saying I agree with Number4, I'm merely giving you the "traditional" approach he mentions for contrast. Common baseball wisdom, before them young'uns got to baseball with their calculators and such, was as follows: 1: Best OBP guy. You want him to get on base by any means necessary. Should also be fast, as you don't want to hold up anyone on base behind him. 2: Second best OBP guy. 3: Best overall hitter, because if the other two don't make it you don't want the inning to end before you get to #4. 4: Your best power hitter, the home run scorer. The idea is that if he's going to hit home runs, it's more efficient if he does so with men on base already. More runs for less effort that way. 5: Your best remaining overall hitter. You need him to be dangerous enough that the pitcher doesn't think it's safer to intentionally walk the home run hitter instead of letting him hit. You want this guy to be almost as dangerous. 6-9 in order of quality, with your pitcher hitting 9th. Slightly updated baseball wisdom has the pitcher hitting 8th, and the traditional #2 guy batting 9th. The problem with these systems is, they only work for the first inning. The #4 guy may never bat fourth in any other inning. And if the first three strike out, he's leading off in the second. Also, your #3, #4 and #5 guys are probably all better hitters than your #1 and #2, but will get fewer plate appearances over the course of a season, which is counterproductive. The theory Number4 mentioned above is the one I use. Being a Pirates fan, numbers are all we've got in our favour, and they don't have a dollar sign in front. As for winning percentage, .500 is what everyone strives for. Under that, you've had a losing season. The majority of playoff teams will get 90 wins (55.5%) or above. 90 is considered the target for teams at the start of the year, although it by no means guarantees playoff baseball (last season the Pirates won 98 and only finished second in our division, then lost the wildcard game. The Cubs won 97 and finished third, then beat us). Only one team since 1996 has won 94 games and not qualified for the playoffs (including wild card games as part of the playoffs, which is silly but is the current trend). The lowest number of wins to qualify for the playoffs since 1996 is 86 (90 in the National League). So yeah, tl;dr version, at the start of the season, your target is generally .500. Win more than you lose. Anything above that is good. If you're contending for the post season, 94 games is generally the mark you want to aim for, but is not set in stone. Winning 100 or more games is really good. The MLB record is 116 wins (Seattle in 2001, and the Chicago Cubs the last time they were this good in 1906... I mean, when there were fewer games, which is therefore a better record (still lost that World Series though...)). On the flip side, 119 is the record set for losses over a 162 game season (Detroit, 2003). Anything over 90 losses is a bit embarrassing. In 1899 the Cleveland Spiders lost 134 games out of 164. Last edited by monkeystyxx; 07-13-2016 at 04:05 AM.

07-13-2016, 09:43 AM	#5
Leo_The_Lip All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 1,703	The record for losses in a162 game season is 120, by the expansion Mets in 1962. __________________ "My name will live forever" - Anonymous

07-13-2016, 10:31 AM	#6
BigRed75 Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 2,430	Don't bat your pitcher in the #8 spot, unless you want to appear too clever by half. In which case, by all means, give more at bats to your worst hitters and less at bats to one of your best players at getting on base. Bat the pitcher at #9. Besides, the lineup is just going to get juggled around after your starting pitcher leaves the game. __________________ Mainline team SPTT team Was not a Snag fan...until I saw the fallout once he was gone and realized what a good job he was actually doing. - Ty Cobb

07-13-2016, 11:24 AM	#8
Number4 Major Leagues Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 460	And the other part should be obvious: By having your worst hitter bat in front of your best, those best guys will more often come up with bases empty and fewer outs left. n contrast, you lose out on driving in your #5-#7 hitters by batting the pitcher #8. People did the numbers, and turned out by batting the pitcher #8, you'll get additional runs over the season. Batting the pitcher #9 and batting him #7 are equivalent. Baseball was played for over a hundred years without access to proper statistics. Batting your worst player last is logical conventional wisdom, so it somehow became almost a holy rule. But modern statistics proved that the effect of giving him more at bats in the #8 spot isn't enough to overcome the advantages it provides. __________________ "Odor is now 2 for 5 today" (Commentator, after Rougned Odor, up to then 1 for 4, punched Jose Bautista square in the face.)

07-14-2016, 04:15 AM	#10
jamieson5000 Bat Boy Join Date: Jul 2016 Posts: 4	A big thank you for all of the replies. I don't know if it's a coincidence, but I changed my batting order to suite the above, and now my batters are striking out a lot worse than they use to. On average my batters strike out about 8 times a game, but its getting up to about 12-16??? I sacked the hitting coach and brought a new guy in, but I don't think that has helped much. Also my pitchers seem to have gone sour with 2 going cold.... And not striking out as much either... Sack the pitching coach?? I've had 2 lots of 7 game loosing streaks as well... Is this what management is all about??? Playing as Baltimore FYI...