Open Database

[Mizzery]

If you had asked my opinion on an open database at the launch of PT19, I would have originally voted no, as it was cool and fun to initially open packs with no real knowledge of the players inside. Over time, though, and especially as my teams improved and moved up levels, I transitioned away from packs to an AH acquisition strategy, and found the lack of a researchable database in PT19 extremely frustrating.

First, for the creation of themed teams, not knowing who exists and does not exist in the PT environment makes team development much more difficult than it needs to be. One of my themed teams is an all Florida team (former Marlins and Rays). Dontrelle Willis or Josh Beckett? Exists. A.J. Burnett or Al Leiter or Dan Uggla? Nope. I know that now because the community has published lists of available players. Before that I had a list of three dozen targeted players I entered and re-entered into the AH daily for weeks trying to find if the players were in the game as I created my targeted rosters.

Secondly, the lack of a searchable database where the same players have multiple cards is very frustrating. Nothing is worse than springing for the 83 Roberto Clemente, only to find over time that there also exists a 84, 88 and 89 version. This gets even worse when the same player has multiple cards with the same OVR rating- which 76 Miguel Cabrera did I just buy, and which one should I have bought? Mike Trout, with two separate 96 cards and two separate 97 cards, is the perfect example of this.

I have voted yes to an open database on the original poll and the follow-up, simply to make the game more fun and less frustrating. If for some reason, the decision for PT 20 is to keep the database hidden again, at least have more differentiation on cards for the same player- maybe one Bronze, one silver, and one gold version of Pete Rose, rather than 3 different silver versions.

[dkgo]

completely agree. made a similar post in the main thread

I also think having multiple versions of a card at the same overall rating serves no purpose other than confusion. does the second cabrera really need to also be 76 instead of 77?

[HRBaker]

I agree on the multiple card issue - one per level would be ok.

On the database, however, I think having an exactly accurate database that the game works from is simply turning this into a math exercise. If all I have to do is compare two players on the master database to see which one is better, there's no "human evaluation" involved.

There are multiple ratings tables throughout the internet. Every imaginable rating value summarized 8 different ways. All of them close, but none of them exact.

I think an available game database would simply give the advantage to the people who have the time to compare everything on it to every decision they make.

[zrog2000]

Originally Posted by HRBaker

I agree on the multiple card issue - one per level would be ok.

On the database, however, I think having an exactly accurate database that the game works from is simply turning this into a math exercise. If all I have to do is compare two players on the master database to see which one is better, there's no "human evaluation" involved.

There are multiple ratings tables throughout the internet. Every imaginable rating value summarized 8 different ways. All of them close, but none of them exact.

I think an available game database would simply give the advantage to the people who have the time to compare everything on it to every decision they make.

If you want to be good at this game, it already is a math exercise. I would bet that everyone at perfect has their own spreadsheets including FIP and OPS calculators.

The only thing hiding the DB would do is make it so the people who come up with their own DB the fastest get way further ahead of everyone else while selling overpriced cards and buying the underpriced ones.

Having the DB from the start puts everyone at the same level (for a longer period of time).

[neugey]

I agree with the points in the original post. Also now that Perfect Team will have tournaments, I think the database will be a more important asset to have, as we are continually setting up and tearing down teams based on tournament restrictions.

On top of that, I think a no-holds-barred in-game searchable database would be spectacular. Especially if it was integrated with the Live Services and very recent MLB stats. Imagine that I could use the in-game database not only to search for my OOTP/Perfect Team needs, but fantasy baseball targets as well! Too cool!

[HRBaker]

Originally Posted by zrog2000

If you want to be good at this game, it already is a math exercise. I would bet that everyone at perfect has their own spreadsheets including FIP and OPS calculators.

The only thing hiding the DB would do is make it so the people who come up with their own DB the fastest get way further ahead of everyone else while selling overpriced cards and buying the underpriced ones.

Having the DB from the start puts everyone at the same level (for a longer period of time).

Your argument is to effectively take away any advantage a player might have because he "works" at getting the information by simply "giving it" to everyone from the get-go. Just like some people chose to use money to advance, others chose to spend a lot of time looking stuff up. Give everyone the database and only the money people have the advantage.

[Mizzery]

Originally Posted by HRBaker

Your argument is to effectively take away any advantage a player might have because he "works" at getting the information by simply "giving it" to everyone from the get-go. Just like some people chose to use money to advance, others chose to spend a lot of time looking stuff up. Give everyone the database and only the money people have the advantage.

Not sure that an accessible database gives the money people an advantage. I may be aware that the 100 Babe Ruth is possibly the best card in the game, but at a cost of 750,000 PP, does it matter? I can crunch the stats on that card all day long, but the odds of ever having a chance to own that card are essentially zero. Quite frankly, the odds of owning any of the top 25 to 50 cards are virtually non-existent for the vast majority of PT players.

Meanwhile, how do I know that cards that are accessible to everyone, like Len Barker, Larry Dierker, J.D. Martinez or Manny Machado have high value in OOTP 19? Not from math or access to their underlying ratings. I see them in my message feed every time I log in, and at the end of every week, there are always about six J.D. Martinez cards in the top 20 MVP vote getters in every league.

After only a handful of weeks after a new season launches, it will become increasingly clear which cards are driving winning teams, not because of data or compiling spreadsheets but simply by paying attention.

Access to a database can be limited to include only high level numbers, if there is concern about full data reveal that could allow stats oriented owners to jump the line on which players to target. I just want to eliminate entering the same players in the auction search box dozens of times in a futile quest to see if they even exist in the game universe.

[dkgo]

Originally Posted by HRBaker

I agree on the multiple card issue - one per level would be ok.

On the database, however, I think having an exactly accurate database that the game works from is simply turning this into a math exercise. If all I have to do is compare two players on the master database to see which one is better, there's no "human evaluation" involved.

There are multiple ratings tables throughout the internet. Every imaginable rating value summarized 8 different ways. All of them close, but none of them exact.

I think an available game database would simply give the advantage to the people who have the time to compare everything on it to every decision they make.

what do you mean by "exactly accurate?" coming up with your method to compare two players is the "human evaluation"

I don't think it's too much to ask to actually know what players are in the game and their face value ratings without having to get lucky enough to see them in a league I'm in

[dkgo]

Originally Posted by HRBaker

I think an available game database would simply give the advantage to the people who have the time to compare everything on it to every decision they make.

Originally Posted by HRBaker

Just like some people chose to use money to advance, others chose to spend a lot of time looking stuff up. Give everyone the database and only the money people have the advantage.

in the first post you don't want a database because then people can use time to get an advantage, then you do a complete 180 and say that it's a good thing people can spend time looking stuff up instead of spending money! what point are you even making?

[HRBaker]

Originally Posted by dkgo

in the first post you don't want a database because then people can use time to get an advantage, then you do a complete 180 and say that it's a good thing people can spend time looking stuff up instead of spending money! what point are you even making?

Misquoted.

My 2nd comment is in support of people looking stuff up on the internet - not being "given" all the information from an in-game table.

[HRBaker]

Originally Posted by dkgo

what do you mean by "exactly accurate?" coming up with your method to compare two players is the "human evaluation"

I don't think it's too much to ask to actually know what players are in the game and their face value ratings without having to get lucky enough to see them in a league I'm in

If we're talking about providing a list of all the players in the game and their already seen card values, then I don't have a problem.

What I'm worried about is if a table was provided that contained all the rating values used by the internal game code to determine results. That kind of detail would give you everything you need to determine results other than the actual die roll.

There is also a question of surprise. If you already know everyone in the game, then there's no surprise when you uncover someone you haven't seen before - Although this element of my concern is not primary.

[HRBaker]

Originally Posted by dkgo

what do you mean by "exactly accurate?" coming up with your method to compare two players is the "human evaluation"

I don't think it's too much to ask to actually know what players are in the game and their face value ratings without having to get lucky enough to see them in a league I'm in

I think our disagreement is based on "what" an open database is. If it is simply a list of all players and their card values, then I don't have an issue and would say "yes".

However, some of the comments on this issue has suggested that "internal" ratings - or put another way - everything that is used internal to the game to rate a player - if THAT is what people are asking for, then I don't agree it should be made available.

In any case, the currently running poll and the OOTP Staff will ultimately determine what, if anything, is released, and we will have to live with that decision.

So be it.

[Neezer]

Because PT 2.0 is going live at start of baseball season, Im going to take the slow approach. Ill be in no rush to spend $ to get the best cards, because once you get them and are in the top level and winning, then whats left? I want my PT experience to last the entire baseball season. And then maybe spend some $ during the fall/winter to have something to do in the off season. But I do want to know what the best cards are, or at least have the ratings/data to make the determination myself. I dont want to have to keep every card I pull from packs. So Ill want to either keep the card because its a top card, or perhaps sell it on AH to maximize PP to help improve overall team and not one position. In PT I ended up keeping so many cards I couldnt keep up and found only making roster decisions more difficult and too tempting to make changes.

[dkgo]

Originally Posted by HRBaker

I think our disagreement is based on "what" an open database is. If it is simply a list of all players and their card values, then I don't have an issue and would say "yes".

However, some of the comments on this issue has suggested that "internal" ratings - or put another way - everything that is used internal to the game to rate a player - if THAT is what people are asking for, then I don't agree it should be made available.

In any case, the currently running poll and the OOTP Staff will ultimately determine what, if anything, is released, and we will have to live with that decision.

So be it.

Agree that it comes down to what is meant by "internal ratings." I would like to be able to see anything that you could see in the game yourself, but am on the same page that hidden stuff like babip should not be available.

[HRBaker]

Well, I'm disappointed that the entire DB was released, but it seems that's what the vast majority of customers wanted. Personally, I really don't want to see the list - but I'm well aware if I don't, I'm now at a disadvantage.

I can only hope people will change their minds by the next version.

[BoofBonser26]

Originally Posted by HRBaker

Well, I'm disappointed that the entire DB was released, but it seems that's what the vast majority of customers wanted. Personally, I really don't want to see the list - but I'm well aware if I don't, I'm now at a disadvantage.

I can only hope people will change their minds by the next version.

I was hoping there would be more support for my preferred version (the partial database), but I'm fine with what was clearly an overwhelming majority getting their way.

When it comes down to it, I think more people would have gone for that middle option if the AH worked better in PT 1.0 and people got to experience seeing a card's full info if they could spot it in the AH, instead of having to come to the forums or Discord to ask for splits etc.

[Mizzery]

Originally Posted by BoofBonser26

I was hoping there would be more support for my preferred version (the partial database), but I'm fine with what was clearly an overwhelming majority getting their way.

When it comes down to it, I think more people would have gone for that middle option if the AH worked better in PT 1.0 and people got to experience seeing a card's full info if they could spot it in the AH, instead of having to come to the forums or Discord to ask for splits etc.

I agree, was defintitely rooting for the middle, partial option myself. Was also surprised by the early release of the database, but the developers were responding to the overwhelming poll results.

This means there will likely be complete OPS, FIP, and defensive forecasts out on the forums before OOTP 20 even launches. Will be interested to see how this immediately impacts auction values since it eliminates the normal multi week organic process of identifying underrated cards. There may be no bargain OOTP 20 equivalents of 19 players like Barker and Dierker since their prices will be inflated from week 1.

[atabakin]

Originally Posted by Mizzery

There may be no bargain OOTP 20 equivalents of 19 players like Barker and Dierker since their prices will be inflated from week 1.

There will be fewer, but I don't think bargains will disappear entirely. There will still be players who don't frequent the message board or discord who will pull a card and list it for a BIN of less than they should simply because they don't look past the overall rating.

The window will be much smaller, though, because once enough people bid up cards without a low BIN, the market price will correct itself sooner. Those wanting bargains will need to be searching in the first few days as opposed to the first few weeks, but there will still be a few diamonds in the rough.

[zrog2000]

Someone needs to figure out the FIP calculations with the movement rating not being the one that we know about.

[bailey]

Originally Posted by Mizzery

There may be no bargain OOTP 20 equivalents of 19 players like Barker and Dierker since their prices will be inflated from week 1.

You are forgetting about tournaments and they valuable cards winning a tournament will unlock. How do you value bronze cards if winning a tournament limited to bronze cards nets you Perfect Pedro?