historical minors will get better

[thehef]

Just trying to clarify...

Originally Posted by thehef

1. All players would import in the year they started pro ball Spritze replied: They already do beginning in 1919. Not all players do, AFAIK. For example, players who debuted in the American Associated from 1919 thru 1931 would not import the year they started pro ball because they have no team in which to import. (Or do they import as free agents?) I believe you indicated a few posts above that these players are not currently available in OOTP, although you have them ready for OOTP to include.
2. Players who started pro ball with an MLB affiliate would import to that MLB organization. Sprize replied: They already do. Right. I just included this for completeness because it's part of the overall suggestion, even though this particular item doesn't represent a change from what the game currently does.
3. Players who started pro ball with an independent or negro league team would import to that particular independent or negro team. Sprize replied: They already do. Independent teams (if in a league that has no teams affiliated with MLB - the International League thru 1926; the American Association, Southern Association, Middle Atlantic League, and New York-Penn League thru 1931, as examples) and Negro League teams are not currently included. So there's no way these players could import to those teams... I could be misunderstanding.
4. Transactions in the historical transactions file would move players, via trades, releases, and signings...
   • to and from MLB organizations
   • to and from independent and negro league teams
5. Transactions in the historical transactions file would NOT move players up and down within an MLB organization (although this could be an option). Rather, AI (or Human GM) would decide on which minor-league level/team the player belongs.
6. Exact transaction dates for most minor leaguers isn't known. However,
   • for minor leaguers who spent an entire season with an independent team (or negro team) and then moved to another indy (or negro) team the next season, precise dates are not necessary; the first of the year - which is used as a catch-all for unknown MLB transaction dates - would work just fine.
   • for minor leaguers who moved from one indy (or negro) team to another during a season, approximate dates - based upon number of games played with each team - could be used in the historical transactions file (some time ago in another thread, BigRod said that this is possible by using stints, which - apparently - are already known, to a degree).
7. An option could then be to play full historical for MLB organizations and the players associated with them, and fictional player movement for all of the independent teams and non-affiliated players. In other words, MLB organizations would use real historical txns. Independent teams, however, would not use real transactions. Rather, all non-affiliated minor-leaguers would move to and from independent minor-league teams at the whims of the AI GM, etc... Might be a cool way to play.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

I think we should be careful about using the term 'loan' because the Major League Rules have always expressly disallowed player loans. Player movement was usually the result of sales of their contract from one club to another; sometimes it was the result of being traded.

I would caution also about the term 'affiliate era' because even within 'era' the nature of the relationship changed considerably. A minor league affiliate of 1931 was a very different thing from an affiliate of 1961, and different again from an affiliate of 1991. (What might be termed the 'modern' era of minor league affiliation started with the changes to the major-minor relationship adopted in 1963; and even then, minor league clubs still had a degree of freedom which did not exist in later years.)

Sure. I'll grant you all of that. However, to get historical minors to the point where loans, differences in era & loose affiliate arrangements between teams, etc., are all accounted for within OOTP, it would probably several versions to accumulate the background info needed, let alone the time to code. Right now historical minors are nearly unplayable (at least for those who have chosen to post about it), there are tons of teams & players not included in OOTP but are ready to be (courtesy of Spritze's & BigRod's work), and there seem to be some ideas out there that are very workable. So, given that, if the choices are...

- minor tweaks & fixes, but still no historical transactions & independent leagues/teams (& thus no access to all of the add'l players)
- implement full & accurate arrangements only when that info becomes available and can be coded
- implement a pretty robust system that includes historical transactions, tons more teams & players (incl. independents & negro), etc., like what's summarized in my OP

I'll take that last one! It sure seems doable for OOTP 18. If we could get there, then, IMO, we'd have highly-playable & semi-close to full & historically-accurate minor league baseball available. It'd be a great foundation for future tweaks & improvements.

[Spritze]

I should have said "they already would" if their teams existed in ootp.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Spritze

I should have said "they already would" if their teams existed in ootp.

Got it. Makes sense. Thanks!

[Spritze]

I am wondering if for 18 rather than limiting leagues to affiliated ones limit them to those as well as any that contain future and/or former mlb players?

That way all those players will have full careers and everyone else will gain fuller careers.

Adds 668 new League Years

[mitchkenn]

'twould be marvelous! Here's to hoping. i can almost hear Jean Luc Picard - "Make It So."

[Spritze]

You will notice the missing 1931 Western League that has caused so much consternation is on this list.

[thehef]

Regarding...

Originally Posted by Spritze

this list...LeaguesToInclude.csv

Very cool... For the most part that pretty much matches a list I was working on. A few suggestions:

1. Start the American Association in 1902, rather than 1903 (in 1902 its classification was independent; it became 'A' in 1903 - perhaps that's why it's excluded)
2. If possible, associate the 1901-1911 Eastern League with the International League that begins in 1912, for continuity purposes, since these were essentially the same league. Maybe it can be done using LgId.
3. Same thing for the New England League from 1901-1915, as the same league as the 1916-1932 Eastern League.
4. Include the Southern Association, which began in 1901
5. Include the Atlantic League, which began in 1998
6. Include Canadian-American Association, began in in 2005

While we're on the subject, any idea why these season-leagues - all of which have at least one team affiliated with MLB - were not included in OOTP historical minors?

1933 Dixie League
1936-1940 Northeast Arkansas League
1939 & 1946 Coastal Plain League
1940-1942 & 1946-1948 Wisconsin State League
1940 & 1947 Evangeline League*
1941-1942 Virginia League*
1942 & 1948 West Texas-New Mexico League*
1946 & 1948 Border League
1946 & 1948 Georgia-Alabama League
1946-1948 Florida International League*
1946-1948 Kansas-Oklahoma-Missouri League
1946-1948 North Atlantic League
1947 Cotton States League*
1947-1948 Illinois State League
1947-1948 Lone Star League
1947-1948 Sooner State League
1947-1948 Sunset League
1947-1948 Tobacco State League
1948 Big State League
1948 Colonial League
1948 Ohio-Indiana League
1948 Far West League
1948 Longhorn League

An asterisk (*) means that they are included in your csv file of proposed leagues to include.

[Spritze]

Not every league has been downloaded from bbref yet. Thanks for the list, I'll forward it to BigRod.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by thehef

1. If possible, associate the 1901-1911 Eastern League with the International League that begins in 1912, for continuity purposes, since these were essentially the same league.
2. Same thing for the New England League from 1901-1915, as the same league as the 1916-1932 Eastern League.
3. Include Canadian-American Association, began in in 2005

In terms of leagues which changed names during their lifespan, here is a list of such leagues and the changes, based on the reference sources I have. It should not be considered a complete list. Starts with leagues operating in or created after 1901, and is arranged chronologically by the first year of the league in its first incarnation.

Eastern League, 1892-1911; International League, 1912-present
Connecticut State League, 1895-1912; Eastern Association, 1913-14
California League, 1898-1902; California State League, 1903-10
New England Leaue, 1901-15; Eastern League, 1916-32
Pacific Northwest League, 1901-02; Pacific National League, 1903-05
Southern League, 1901-19; Southern Association, 1920-61
Virginia-North Carolina League. 1901; North Carolina League, 1902
Missouri Valley League, 1902-04; Western Association, 1905-11
Iowa State League, 1904-07; Central Association, 1908-17
Copper County Soo League, 1905; Northern Copper County League, 1906-07
Northwestern League, 1905-17; Pacific Coast International League, 1918; Northwest International League, 1919; Pacific Coast International League, 1920-21; Western International League, 1922
Wisconsin Association, 1905-06; Wisconsin State League, 1907
Oklahoma-Arkansas-Kansas League, 1907; Oklahoma-Kansas League, 1908
Carolina Association, 1908-12; North Carolina State League, 1913-17
Central Kansas League, 1908-12; Kansas State League, 1913-14
Northern League, 1908; Minnesota-Wisconsin League, 1909-12; see special cases
Wisconsin-Illinois League, 1908-14; Bi-State League, 1915
Empire State League, 1913; Georgia State League, 1914; Florida-Alabama-Georgia League, 1915
New York-New Jersey League, 1913; Atlantic League, 1914
South Dakota League, 1920; Dakota League, 1921-23
West Texas League, 1920-22; Panhandle-Pecos Valley League, 1923
New York-Pennsylvania League, 1923-37; Eastern League, 1938-present
Arizona State League, 1928-30; Arizona-Texas League, 1931-32
Nebraska State League, 1928-38; Western League, 1939-41
New England League. 1933; Northeastern League, 1934
Arkansas State League, 1934-35; Arkansas-Missouri League, 1936-40
Alabama-Florida League, 1936-39; Alabama State League, 1940-41
North Carolina State League, 1945-52; Tar Heel League, 1953-54
Alabama State League, 1946-50; Alabama-Florida League, 1951-62
South Atlantic League, 1946-63; Southern League, 1964-present
Western International League, 1946-54; Northwest League, 1955-present
Arizona-Texas League, 1947-50; Southwest International League, 1951-52
Illinois State League, 1947-48; Mississippi Ohio Valley League, 1949-55; Midwest League, 1956-present
Longhorn League, 1947-55; Southwestern League, 1956-57; Sophomore League, 1958-61
Sunset League, 1947-50; Southwest International League, 1951-52
Arizona-Texas League, 1952-54; Arizona-Mexico League, 1955-58
Western Carolina League, 1960-62; Western Carolinas League,1963-79; South Atlantic League, 1980-present
Sarasota Rookie League, 1964; Florida Rookie League, 1965; Gulf Coast League, 1966-present
Gulf States League, 1976; Lone Star League, 1977
Great Central League, 1994; Mid-America League, 1995; Heartland League, 1996-98
Texas-Louisiana League, 1994-2001; Central League, 2002-05; United League, 2006-10
Northeast League, 2003-04; Canadian-American Association, 2005-present

Special Cases
Minnesota-Wisconsin League, 1909-12, and Central International League, 1912; merged to form Northern League, 1913-17
Michigan-Ontario League, 1919-26, and Central League, 1926, merged in mid-season to form Michigan State League, 1926
Southern League and Texas League merged in 1971 to form Dixie Association; arrangement only lasted for that season
Northeast League merged with Northern League for the 1999-2002 seasons; split from Northern League in 2003
Golden Baseball League, Northern League, and United League merged to form North American League, 2012-13


Note too leagues sometimes were better known by more informal names. E.g. the Illinois-Iowa-Indiana League was more commonly referred to as the Three-I League; the Border League of 1912-13 was also known as the Eastern Michigan League; the Pennsylvania-Ontario-New York League was usually called the Pony League; etc.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

In terms of leagues which changed names during their lifespan, here is a list of such leagues and the changes, based on the reference sources I have. It should not be considered a complete list. Starts with leagues operating in or created after 1901, and is arranged chronologically by the first year of the league in its first incarnation.

Very cool list.

I would think that for simplicity & continuity purposes, it would be best to maintain as many of these relationships as possible (even if at times we sacrifice a bit of pinpoint accuracy). For example, in OOTP if you were to look at the history of the International League, it should include the Eastern League through 1911. And if you were to look at the history of the Southern Association (that ran from 1920-1961), it should include the Southern League from 1901-1919.

For the Special Cases (mergers), I would generally keep the history of the longer-historied predecessor league as part of the subsequent/resulting league:

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Special Cases
Minnesota-Wisconsin League, 1909-12, and Central International League, 1912; merged to form Northern League, 1913-17

Michigan-Ontario League, 1919-26, and Central League, 1926, merged in mid-season to form Michigan State League, 1926

Southern League and Texas League merged in 1971 to form Dixie Association; arrangement only lasted for that season. I would ignore this merger, treat it like it never happened. IMO, for one season it's not worth the complexities it would introduce as far as maintaining league histories.

Northeast League merged with Northern League for the 1999-2002 seasons; split from Northern League in 2003. Could ignore the 4-year merger. Or league history could simply show that the Northeast League did not exist from 1999-2002.

Golden Baseball League, Northern League, and United League merged to form North American League, 2012-13. Since the North American League ceased after the 2012 season, and the United League then resurrected itself for the 2013-14 seasons, I would associated the histories of the pre-merger United League and the 2012-13 Northern American League with the United League. The GBL and Northern League histories - both of them thru 2010 - would stand on their own.

As for minor-league franchise histories, because of this...

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Keep in mind there is no reliable history of minor league franchises. Sources sometimes disagree as to what happened in a league prior to a season. For example, one source might list it as a team moving from City A to City B, and an expansion club being placed in City A, while another source lists it as an expansion club put into City B, with City A's team continuing on as it was. Which one is right obviously affects franchise histories.

... I would suggest that no effort be made in OOTP to maintain the actual histories of minor-league franchises. Rather, the history should be maintained by city.

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

In terms of leagues which changed names during their lifespan...

LGO, do you have anything like this for Negro leagues?

Finally, while I realize that many like to play random-debut or fictional-historical, and would like to do so with historical minors, I think the key to making historical minors in OOTP an awesome thing is to make it actually historical by allowing access to as many players and leagues as possible, and - most-importantly - incorporating historical transactions. Beyond fixing known bugs, that should be the primary focus, IMO... In other words...

Originally Posted by Orcin

The important thing here is to make the game fun. Historically correct AND fun is even better, but we have compromises in a lot of areas. This could be another. As David points out, historically correct goes out the window as soon as the AI trades Joe DiMaggio to the Red Sox.

We shouldn't have to settle for that.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by thehef

Southern League and Texas League merged in 1971 to form Dixie Association; arrangement only lasted for that season.

I would ignore this merger, treat it like it never happened. IMO, for one season it's not worth the complexities it would introduce as far as maintaining league histories.

I would disagree, for a couple of reasons.

(1) To do otherwise means the two leagues operate as 7-team entities that year, yet play an interleague schedule, and with the Southern League's Birmingham club playing a schedule drastically different from the six other nominal Southern League clubs.

(2) It was the first time in minor league history a league was divided into three divisions, and it was the first time an NFL-style wild card playoff qualifier was used.

Originally Posted by thehef

... I would suggest that no effort be made in OOTP to maintain the actual histories of minor-league franchises. Rather, the history should be maintained by city.

That has its own issues. There have been a couple of occasions where the same city has hosted two different minor league clubs simultaneously.

Originally Posted by thehef

LGO, do you have anything like this for Negro leagues?

No, I'm afraid not. Even the final standings for Negro leagues are not completely certain in some seasons.

[Spritze]

Unaffiliated leagues have been disavowed (for now).

So anything pertaining to them is just a mental exercise.

I will look into combining leagues where appropriate.

[Orcin]

I would be happy if the players remained in the organization that has their rights from one season to the next. Until this is fixed, the feature is unplayable.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Orcin

I would be happy if the players remained in the organization that has their rights from one season to the next. Until this is fixed, the feature is unplayable.

I agree 100%. Adding 400,000 more leagues is meaningless until this is achieved.

[Spritze]

This not going to happen afaik. It does not happen for the mlb either unless you use the tranny file. Time to move on?

[thehef]

IRL an organization does not lose huge chunks of its players simply because a minor-league team or league ceases operation. So, at a minimum, OOTP needs to fix that (which I believe has been identified as a bug). Beyond that, for historical minors to be both playable and fun, it needs to be more than just a highly-inflexible way of getting some minor leaguers into your game, into a structure that somewhat mimics historical, but doesn't otherwise resemble history beyond some minor-leaguers importing to their original teams.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Spritze

This not going to happen afaik. It does not happen for the mlb either unless you use the tranny file. Time to move on?

Not sure I understand this statement. What is it time to move on from?

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by Spritze

This not going to happen afaik. It does not happen for the mlb either unless you use the tranny file. Time to move on?

In fact, it does happen for the mlb. Check real-life teams that changed affiliates in the off-season. The players on those teams do not become free agents. They remain with the organization that owns their rights.

Of course, players move from one organization to another in real life. But they do so by virtue of actual transactions. The game does not create actual transactions for these erroneous movements. The transaction logs show nothing. One day a team owns their rights and the next day they are free agents for no contractual reason. That does not happen in real life.

This is obviously a bug, and a quite serious one at that. It is definitely not "time to move on". It is time to admit that we have a problem, and devote some programming resources to fix it. Hopefully, it could be fixed with a patch to OOTP17.

[Spritze]

I mean it is time for me to move on. I am too discouraged to create any more bug reports. It seems like what it is now is going to be what it is. Way too much churn in players and the players on any milb team in game seem just to be random to me.