historical minors will get better

[thehef]

Without a doubt!

One of the current flaws with historical minors is that while you are essentially forced to play with the actual (MLB-affiliated) historical minor league setup, you can't use historical transactions. So, other than major leaguers initially importing to their correct team (if you choose that setting), after that it's no longer historical, other than MiLB affiliates. OK, so at that point it's a bunch of "what-if's"; that's fine. However, IMO, for historical minors OOTP needs to embrace the historical part of it, AND offer the flexibility to do fictional-historical minors (where you can play fictional, but with historical MLB and MiLB setup), too.

An ideal setup would be where you could play with historical transactions AND full historical minors back to at least 1901. To do this:

1. All players would import in the year they started pro ball
2. Players who started pro ball with an MLB affiliate would import to that MLB organization
3. Players who started pro ball with an independent or negro league team would import to that particular independent or negro team
4. Transactions in the historical transactions file would move players, via trades, releases, and signings...
   • to and from MLB organizations
   • to and from independent and negro league teams
5. Transactions in the historical transactions file would NOT move players up and down within an MLB organization (although this could be an option). Rather, AI (or Human GM) would decide on which minor-league level/team the player belongs.
6. Exact transaction dates for most minor leaguers isn't known. However,
   • for minor leaguers who spent an entire season with an independent team (or negro team) and then moved to another indy (or negro) team the next season, precise dates are not necessary; the first of the year - which is used as a catch-all for unknown MLB transaction dates - would work just fine.
   • for minor leaguers who moved from one indy (or negro) team to another during a season, approximate dates - based upon number of games played with each team - could be used in the historical transactions file (some time ago in another thread, BigRod said that this is possible by using stints, which - apparently - are already known, to a degree).
7. An option could then be to play full historical for MLB organizations and the players associated with them, and fictional player movement for all of the independent teams and non-affiliated players. In other words, MLB organizations would use real historical txns. Independent teams, however, would not use real transactions. Rather, all non-affiliated minor-leaguers would move to and from independent minor-league teams at the whims of the AI GM, etc... Might be a cool way to play.

This would go a long way towards making historical minors pretty awesome, IMO

[mitchkenn]

Man, that's absolutely a dream list on paper. Hopefully some of it, if not all, could come to pass in the next version. (getting old here and don't know how many more versions i'll be around for ....) i'd really love for the historical minors, even if unaffiliated, to go back to 1901, as well as the Negro Leagues ... so we could purchase those players for ML teams. (Or the NL as an independant League- Associated to ML, so there could be a WS between ML and NL.)

i personally am not so enamored with the minor league transactions, as long as the players went to the teams they were associated with ... of course with a draft, that doesn't happen anyway ... but i liked these ideas a LOT!

"All players would import in the year they started pro ball
Players who started pro ball with an MLB affiliate would import to that MLB organization
Players who started pro ball with an independent or negro league team would import to that particular independent or negro team".

that would mean a LOT more minor/independant teams to be created ..... (i'm working on expanding the 24 hour day to 36 for the developers!) but on a dream list, heck Yes!!!!!

[thehef]

Originally Posted by mitchkenn

Hopefully some of it, if not all, could come to pass in the next version... i'd really love for the historical minors, even if unaffiliated, to go back to 1901, as well as the Negro Leagues ... that would mean a LOT more minor/independent teams to be created ...

I believe this all to be very do-able for the next version, although I have no insider info on the developers' willingness to do so. I base this on 1) what I know of Spritze's & BigRod's work on minor league players & stats, 2) some testing I've done to add independent leagues & teams (structure, not players), and 3) how OOTP currently handles MLB transactions.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by thehef

[LIST=1][*]Transactions in the historical transactions file would move players, via trades, releases, and signings...

• to and from MLB organizations

• to and from independent and negro league teams

Does such transaction data even exist in any organized way?

[ArcAngel]

17 laid the groundwork, to be sure, and I am sure that it will improve over time. Just have to have faith that it will be improved over the years.

Certainly 18 should see improvements in it.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Does such transaction data even exist in any organized way?

Not sure. However, BigRod mentiones here - http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ml#post3986239 - about how stints are used. In addition, this thread - http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...-question.html - discusses the idea, and BigRod seems to think it could be done. I would guess the exact dates for many minor-league transactions is simply not knowable. However, the outline for how to handle this is described in #6 of the OP. It would be one of those things where 9 eggs may not be a dozen, but 9 eggs are better than no eggs.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by thehef

I would guess the exact dates for many minor-league transactions is simply not knowable.

That's not necessarily the case. The weekly editions of The Sporting News used to publish, for some seasons and leagues, a summary of the transactions which occurred. I believe also the player contract cards on file with the National Baseball Hall of Fame Library contain transaction data (in addition to salary data).

Of course, researching all that is another matter entirely.

[mitchkenn]

along these lines .... if the minors can't be expanded from 1901 forward and include non-affiliated teams/leagues - that we could SOMEHOW affiliate with our game ML teams ..... and the Negro Leagues able to be integrated one way or another ....
how about, even if no (or only one or two) affiliates are available for teams, the ability to have player generated minors co-exist with the "real" minors designated by the game. probably a lot of programming that is not going to be used by the majority, but it certainly would make the game more enjoyable.
or if we create a fictional minor league system, that "real" minor league players could be drafted for them. The database exists, but i have no idea how hard the programming would be to make it happen, or how many people - besides those "few"of us that keep expressing this - would use it. i know i would.

[Spritze]

Originally Posted by thehef

An ideal setup would be where you could play with historical transactions AND full historical minors back to at least 1901. To do this:

1. All players would import in the year they started pro ball They already do beginning in 1919.
   
2. Players who started pro ball with an MLB affiliate would import to that MLB organization They already do
   
3. Players who started pro ball with an independent or negro league team would import to that particular independent or negro team They already do
   
4. Transactions in the historical transactions file would move players, via trades, releases, and signings...
   • to and from MLB organizations
   • to and from independent and negro league teams
5. Transactions in the historical transactions file would NOT move players up and down within an MLB organization (although this could be an option). Rather, AI (or Human GM) would decide on which minor-league level/team the player belongs.
6. Exact transaction dates for most minor leaguers isn't known. However,
   • for minor leaguers who spent an entire season with an independent team (or negro team) and then moved to another indy (or negro) team the next season, precise dates are not necessary; the first of the year - which is used as a catch-all for unknown MLB transaction dates - would work just fine.
   • for minor leaguers who moved from one indy (or negro) team to another during a season, approximate dates - based upon number of games played with each team - could be used in the historical transactions file (some time ago in another thread, BigRod said that this is possible by using stints, which - apparently - are already known, to a degree).
7. An option could then be to play full historical for MLB organizations and the players associated with them, and fictional player movement for all of the independent teams and non-affiliated players. In other words, MLB organizations would use real historical txns. Independent teams, however, would not use real transactions. Rather, all non-affiliated minor-leaguers would move to and from independent minor-league teams at the whims of the AI GM, etc... Might be a cool way to play.

This would go a long way towards making historical minors pretty awesome, IMO

Some of these ideas already exist in game. A milb transaction file would be doable. ootp has a huge number of unused players, leagues and teams in its database going back to the 1880's affiliated or not. The reason for only using affiliated team/leagues had to do with financials as I disremember.

[mitchkenn]

Originally Posted by Spritze

Some of these ideas already exist in game. A milb transaction file would be doable. ootp has a huge number of unused players, leagues and teams in its database going back to the 1880's affiliated or not. The reason for only using affiliated team/leagues had to do with financials as I disremember.

is there a reason that OOTP couldn't put those teams/leagues into the game so they could be used, if a player wanted? i understand there may be reason why they wouldn't want to (ie financials or programming ....) ... but if there was an option to have them, i'd love it. Would even be willing to fork out a few extra pesos.

The issues with the early years of the minors and Negro Leagues are the only things keeping this from being a perfect game for my style of play.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

That's not necessarily the case. The weekly editions of The Sporting News used to publish, for some seasons and leagues, a summary of the transactions which occurred. I believe also the player contract cards on file with the National Baseball Hall of Fame Library contain transaction data (in addition to salary data).

Of course, researching all that is another matter entirely.

Perhaps true. Historical MiLB transactions would fall into one of these categories:

1. Known
2. Knowable with some basic research
3. Knowable with some serious research
4. Not knowable

The "Not knowable" ones could be transactions from obscure leagues in small towns long ago. Exactly which ones are knowable vs not knowable is not yet knowable But I'm guessing that - much like the MiLB ballpark names when I was researching those - the farther back in history the league/team existed, and the lower the minor league level, the harder the data would be to find.

I'll re-emphasize, though, that - as far as I'm concerned - precise dates are not all that necessary. I'd venture a guess that the majority of player-seasons throughout non-affiliated MiLB history were those where the player played a full, or close to full, season with one team. So in the event the player changed teams in the offseason, a date of 1/1/yyyy should suffice. For those that played only partial seasons with one team, or played for more than one team in a season, dates could be estimated based upon number of games played and other factors. This would suffice, although actual txn dates discovered by eventual and ongoing research (assuming it was undertaken) could absolutely and incrementally supplant any guessed/estimated dates.

Finally, this "date estimation" would not need to be performed for players who changed teams within an MLB organization; it would only apply to those changing from one independent team to another, moving from an indy team to an MLB organization, moving from an MLB organization to an indy team, or moving from one MLB org to another MLB org. Why not? Because we don't need to know when a guy was promoted or demoted, as OOTP AI / player development will handle that. (Think about it: If Jim Rice is hitting .143 in double-A in your OOTP game, do you really want him promoted to Triple-A Pawtucket just because history says he was?)

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Spritze

Some of these ideas already exist in game. A milb transaction file would be doable.

I'm thinking so, and hopeful it can be done.

Originally Posted by Spritze

ootp has a huge number of unused players, leagues and teams in its database going back to the 1880's affiliated or not.

Not sure what you mean. Are you saying that somewhere in odb files this data exists, but it is not accessible - yet - to gamers?

Originally Posted by Spritze

The reason for only using affiliated team/leagues had to do with financials as I disremember.

I could see where financials could prove to be a problem. However, I would think that if using complete historical minors (complete meaning independents and negro leagues, in addition to affiliated teams/leagues), financials could be automatically disabled (much like historical txns are now, if using historical MiLB), until at some point the hurdles to using them are overcome.

[Spritze]

Originally Posted by thehef

Not sure what you mean. Are you saying that somewhere in odb files this data exists, but it is not accessible - yet - to gamers?

Not in the odb files as they only include the data that appears in the game. BigRod and myselves got the data for many unaffiliated leagues and years while we were at it. ODB files exist due to the large amounts of data and using all we got would triple or maybe even quadraped those sizes. Not centiped them yet but there is still data to be got.

[Le Grande Orange]

I'm going to point out again that a key issue with historical minor leagues is the fact that the relationship between the minors and majors underwent a host of changes over the decades, and OOTP really only mimics the current-day major-minor relationship. There would need to be thought given as to how to shoehorn the modern concept into the rather different situations which existed in the past.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Spritze

Not in the odb files as they only include the data that appears in the game. BigRod and myselves got the data for many unaffiliated leagues and years while we were at it. ODB files exist due to the large amounts of data and using all we got would triple or maybe even quadraped those sizes. Not centiped them yet but there is still data to be got.

Color me a couple shades of confused. And also not following... While it's totally not surprising that yourselves & Bigrod got the data for many unaffiliated leagues, etc.,if that data is not in the ODB files, then what is meant by these quotes?

Originally Posted by Spritze

ootp has a huge number of unused players, leagues and teams in its database going back to the 1880's affiliated or not.

Originally Posted by Spritze

Be forewarned that there are about 70,000 unused minor league players and their stats available in the OOTP database.

Who are these unused players? Why are they unused? If they are not the same as the players from the unaffiliated leagues, then who might they be? Their stats are available in the OOTP database? How?

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

I'm going to point out again that a key issue with historical minor leagues is the fact that the relationship between the minors and majors underwent a host of changes over the decades, and OOTP really only mimics the current-day major-minor relationship. There would need to be thought given as to how to shoehorn the modern concept into the rather different situations which existed in the past.

In the pre-affiliate era I think we're basically talking about a combination of a) players loaned to MiLB clubs, and b) a looser-than-affilliate type of relationship between MLB and MiLB clubs. I think the solution to this would be the MiBL historical transactions file. Let's use the 1930-1932 Pirates organization as an example (that I'm mostly just making up)...

The Pirates' only affiliate in 1930 was the Wichita Aviators, and after the season they disassociated with Wichita and had no affiliate for 1931. Then in 1932, the Pirates affiliated with the Tulsa Oilers. Let's say in real life the 1930 Aviators had 22 players at the end of the season, and for the beginning of the 1931 season these players had distributed in the following categories:

a) remained with Wichita, which was affiliated with the St Louis Browns in 1931
b) on the Pirates MLB roster
c) in the Boston Red Sox organization
d) on the independent Fort Worth Panthers of the Texas League
e) did not play in 1931
f) loaned to the independent Jersey City Skeeters in the International League, in an informal affiliate-type of arrangement
g) loaned to the independent Hollywood Stars of the Pacific Coast League

The MiLB transaction file would include the following entries for these players:

a) released by Pittsburgh organization and signed by St Louis Browns organization
b) no transactions, as these players remained in the Pirates organization (either on the MLB roster or reserve roster, as dicated by AI or human GM)
c) released by Pittsburgh organization and signed by the Boston Red Sox organization
d) released by Pittsburgh organization and signed by the Fort Worth Panthers
e) released by Pittsburgh, in the free agent pool or retired
f) released by Pittsburgh and signed by Jersey City*
g) released by Pittsburgh and signed by Hollywood*

*In these "loan" cases, if a player was then loaned back to the Pirates organization for the 1932 season, then the transactions file would include that the player was released by Jersey city or Hollywood, and signed by the Pirates.

As for the 1932 Tulsa Oilers, who were affiliated with the Pirates that season, their season-opening roster would be comprised of:

h) players who were already in the Pirates' organization and did not make the MLB club
i) first-year imported players who, IRL, either played with the Pirates or played on Tulsa, and who did not make the MLB club
j) any other players who, IRL, played on Tulsa in 1932. These players would be acquired by the Pirates organization via the historical transactions file (released by 1931 team/organization, signed by Pittsburgh organization)

Piece o' cake!!!

[Spritze]

Originally Posted by thehef

Who are these unused players? Players who spent their entire careers in leagues not currently included in the ootp milb.

Why are they unused? Because they spent their entire careers in leagues not currently included in the ootp milb.


Their stats are available in the OOTP database? That database resides on my and big rods computers at the moment as I have not gotten any traction on requests to have a central data depository for the coordination of data.

How? I have no idea as this info is proprietary so until it appears in game you don't have access and when it appears in game it is locked in an odb file

Hope this changes your color. There are 33,224 teams in the database, 14,334 are in use.

[mitchkenn]

Originally Posted by Spritze

Hope this changes your color. There are 33,224 teams in the database, 14,334 are in use.

that does answer my question earlier. Thanks. It's up to Markus and team IF they want to put these in the game, in some form yet to be determined, and not a matter of it being possible or not.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by thehef

In the pre-affiliate era I think we're basically talking about a combination of a) players loaned to MiLB clubs, and b) a looser-than-affilliate type of relationship between MLB and MiLB clubs.

I think we should be careful about using the term 'loan' because the Major League Rules have always expressly disallowed player loans. Player movement was usually the result of sales of their contract from one club to another; sometimes it was the result of being traded.

I would caution also about the term 'affiliate era' because even within 'era' the nature of the relationship changed considerably. A minor league affiliate of 1931 was a very different thing from an affiliate of 1961, and different again from an affiliate of 1991. (What might be termed the 'modern' era of minor league affiliation started with the changes to the major-minor relationship adopted in 1963; and even then, minor league clubs still had a degree of freedom which did not exist in later years.)

[mitchkenn]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

I think we should be careful about using the term 'loan' because the Major League Rules have always expressly disallowed player loans. Player movement was usually the result of sales of their contract from one club to another; sometimes it was the result of being traded.

I would caution also about the term 'affiliate era' because even within 'era' the nature of the relationship changed considerably. A minor league affiliate of 1931 was a very different thing from an affiliate of 1961, and different again from an affiliate of 1991. (What might be termed the 'modern' era of minor league affiliation started with the changes to the major-minor relationship adopted in 1963; and even then, minor league clubs still had a degree of freedom which did not exist in later years.)

some good points. i never realized how little i knew about the minors before reading some of these posts. Made a list of books to start getting from Amazon in near future, once i get the last couple of "must haves" on Negro Leagues read. Thanks for the insights.