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Old 08-12-2014, 06:45 PM   #1
Cryomaniac
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Rare plays people would like to see?

Based on this post by BradC here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BradC View Post
I recall seeing a comment from Markus recently (maybe in the Beta forum; I forget) where he said that he wanted to add more rare plays to the game.

So if someone wants to start a thread where people can post such plays, I'll let Markus know and make sure the suggestions get added somewhere so he can go through them and figure out which ones he can add.

And since we're going to bring another programmer into the team, I'm sure this is something Markus could give him to work on at some point.
I thought I'd make a thread about it. I can't think of any off the top of my head, except maybe some more rare double and triple play combinations (would be cool to see U9 double plays in some circumstances, for example).
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Old 08-12-2014, 08:15 PM   #2
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I'd like to see more rundowns resulting in DPs.
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Old 08-12-2014, 10:20 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Cryomaniac View Post
I thought I'd make a thread about it.
Thanks Cryomaniac for making this thread! I was going to create one tonight, and am glad you beat me to it.

Here are some miscellaneous plays that came to mind, along with (where possible) supporting references for illustrative purposes and to reflect that these do indeed happen:

Sacrifice fly to the infield
- This is fairly uncommon, but I've seen this a few times
"Blooped into shallow right... the second baseman dives.. and has it! Hamilton is tagging from third... the throw... and he's safe! Franco's momentum was taking him away from home plate.. and he couldn't put enough on that throw to beat the speedy Hamilton."

Baserunner advancing first-to-third on a groundout
Real world example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BiSXNncQMI

Baserunner advancing first-to-third on a wild pitch or passed ball
- no video, but this some speedy runners can pull this off. I think Jose Reyes has accomplished it this year

Two stolen bases on a play (not really limited to stolen bases -- basically, advancing two bases due to a base not being covered)
Real world example: Dustin Pedroia Steals Two Bases On One Play In Eventful Inning (Video) | Boston Red Sox | NESN.com

Scoring from 2nd on sac fly
Real world example: Rays' Desmond Jennings Scores from 2nd Base on Sacrifice Fly | Bleacher Report

Ground ball double play, runner called safe at second as defender didn't touch the base
Real world example: Aybar misses bag | MLB.com
"And here's an easy grounder to the second baseman... underhands to second for one... fired on to first... in time! Wait! The runner is called safe at second! The umpire ruled that the shortstop didn't touch the bag!"

1-3-6 pickoff/caught stealing
Real world example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5Rx3djb50Y
(It looks like all of OOTP's pickoffs are 1-3 at first, or 1-6 / 1-4 at second.)
"Coleman breaks for second.. and Tanana throws over to first.. the throw to second.. and he's out. Coleman went on first movement.. and Tanana was thinking pickoff the whole time. That'll be a caught stealing."

Failed pickoff attempt second, but backed up and thrown out at third
"Pickoff attempt at second base... and the throw is in the dirt! The runner heads for third.. but Whitaker was right there backing up the play... he picks up the ball and fires to third... and he got him!"

Safe on a throwing error at first, catcher backs up play, throws runner out at second
- No video, but this isn't especially rare; happens quite a bit
".. The throw to first.. is too high! And it gets away from Hernandez! Smith heads for second! But Carter is backing up the play... he picks up the ball and fires to second... out! Carter hustled down the baseline just in case something like that would develop... and it paid off."

Outfield forceouts at first 9-3, 8-3
Real world example: theScore
"Lined into right.. and that drops in... Bautista charges in, takes it on one hop, and comes up firing! He got him at first! Unbelievable! Butler can't believe it!"

Outfield baserunner forceouts (e.g: 9-6, 9-4, 8-6, 8-4, 7-4, 7-6)
"Sinking liner to left... trapped! The quick throw to second.. and they got him... the runner at first is erased on the outfield forceout."

Runner thrown out after a base hit (wide turn/throw behind)
"And that drops in... base hit for Turner, who makes a wide turn at first... Snyder's throw goes in BEHIND the runner... and they got him at first! Turner was napping on that one."

Out at home, out at another base double plays (e.g. 9-2-4, 7-2-6, 8-2-5 DPs)
"Single to right... the throw home... and they got him! Quick throw to second.. and out!"

Runner passing other runner on the basepaths
Real world example: Rules review: When baserunners pass each other, who's out?

Baserunner gets hung up when another runner occupies base
"Adams at second... Smith swings... and there's a fly ball... it drops in... but Adams, thinking it would be caught, was going back to second to tag... now he's heading for third... the throw to third.. well ahead of Adams... now he's scrambling back... but Smith has moved up to second on the throw... nowhere for Adams to go... and he's a dead duck... and tagged out."

Balls squibbed down the line, and allowed to roll fair or foul:
"And that's squibbed down the third base line... Brett on top of it, but no chance for a play at first... so he's going to let the ball roll, and hope it rolls foul.. rolling... rolling... rolling... [fair/foul]!"
...or
Real world example: VIDEO: Brayan Pena lets foul ball roll fair, retires Nick Swisher - CBSSports.com
"And that's squibbed down the third base line... rolling foul.. and it rolls back into fair ground! Pena scoops it up, and tags Swisher.. who didn't even leave the batting circle. Lot of topspin on that ball, bringing it back into fair territory... and Swisher is going to hear it back in the dugout."

Baserunners faked out by feigned defensive plays
Real world example: Must C: Jeter fakes out Kipnis | MLB.com
"And that's a pop fly to third.. and caught... Kipnis is hung out to dry! Jeter faked a grounder, and had Kipnis sliding into second! He's running back to first... but is easily thrown out. Embarrassing moment for Kipnis... smart play by Jeter..."

Fly ball/popup lost the ball in the sun (or clouds)
Real world example: Reynolds' fly ball lost in sun | MLB.com
"Fly ball to left... and Johnson is waving frantically! He lost the ball in the sun (if sunny, clouds if cloudy; for a domed stadium, could be the roof's bad contrast)... and it drops in... the hitter [stops at first/races for second]"

Ball gets stuck in the outfield wall
Real world example: Batted balls stuck in walls were factors in both the Rays vs. Jays and Orioles vs. Royals contests | MLB.com: News
".. and that'll go all the way to the wall... Butler chases it... and now he's waving! The umpires are calling the play dead! It looks like.. the ball is stuck in the wall! And the runner will have to go back to second as this is ruled a ground-rule double... this is an interesting park, with lots of nooks and crannies... this time it cost the Jets a triple..."

Hit during a sloppy intentional walk
Real world example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6YzVvtxoaY
"And they're going to give him an intentional walk... that will bring up... wait! Johnson drove the ball into right field! That pitch was too close to the plate, and Johnson smoked it! The outfielders are scrambling..."

Outfield/infield fly bobbled by one defender, but caught by the other
- No video, but this isn't terribly uncommon
"Sky high pop-up... the third baseman settles under it... bobbled! And caught by the shortstop, backing up the play! He dove and grabbed that ball when he saw Jones lose control..."
"Fly ball into the gap... the outfielders race for it... Armas reaches for it... off the end of his glove! But caught by Evans! That was close!"

Running out of running lane to first
Real world: Baseball Rules - Running Lane to First Base
"Squibbed in front of the plate... the catcher picks it up and fires... the throw hits the batter in the back as he crosses first base.... and the umpires is calling the batter out... he was running down to first out of the running lane."

Lawn darts!
Real world examples: A Recent History of the Lawn Dart | FanGraphs Baseball
I know we have outfield throws going wild, but none of them are *this* wild (or as entertaining).

Baserunner/fielders slips and falls
Real world example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfwrBpHeWiU
"... rounding third and heading for home.... oh no! He slipped and fell while rounding the bases! He's scrambling to get back to third... and he's [safe/out]. His feet just gave out underneath him!"

Hitter/umpire loses track of the count
Real world example: Cardinals Jon Jay strikes out as ump loses track of count | MLB.com: News
".. And that's high, ball four... the hitter has not left the box... what's going on? That was ball four, right? For some reason, he hasn't taken his base... He's digging in at the box.... The pitcher fires... and he got him! Incredible! He lost track of the count... and the pitcher took advantage of that mental miscue..."

Ballboy/ballgirl fielding a live ball
Real world example:
ballgirl - Orioles ballgirl makes great play ... on fair ball | MLB.com
ballboy - Kansas City Royals' ball boy snags fair ball - ESPN New York

Ballboy interference
Real world example: Ball boy interferes with Davis | MLB.com

Fan interference on a foul ball
Real world example: Well, Bartman, obviously. Also Watch: Fan interferes with Bautista catch - Sportsnet.ca

Fan interference on a home run
Real world example: BB Moments: Fan helps Jeter's HR | MLB.com

Fans kill each other for a bat (actually, Swung bat accidentally thrown into the stands)
Real world example: Rangers Fans Nearly Choked Each Other Out Over an Edwin Encarnacion Bat | The Big Lead
This actually isn't incredibly rare -- if you watch Edwin Encarnacion, he basically does this every other a week.

Swung bat thrown into play
Real world example: Orioles' Machado suspended five games for throwing bat | MLB.com: News

I've noticed that it seems like all brawls are instigated by hit-by-pitch plays only. Here are a few other possibilities:
Argument over a tag play
Real world example: Benches clear in 3rd | MLB.com

Argument over a hard slide during a force play
Real world example: Benches clear after Ian Desmond takes issue with Carlos Gomez?s hard slide

Argument over home run pimping
Real world example: (pitcher) http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/big-le...4793--mlb.html
Real world exapmle: (catcher) Gomez hits homer, benches clear | MLB.com

Argument over a bunt
Real world example: Rangers right-hander Colby Lewis takes exception with Blue Jays' Colby Rasmus' bunt | MLB.com: News
Some plays potentially leading to injuries:
Catcher clipped by backswing and injured
Real world example: A's catcher Derek Norris again hit by swing follow-through - CBSSports.com

Foul liner into dugout
Real world example: http://sports.yahoo.com/news/wacha-l...9338--mlb.html
- potential injury risk to anyone in dugout (defending team's dugout: all bench players, all starting pitchers, any players removed from game; offensive team's dugout: entire roster excluding hitter, any baserunners, bullpen, and anyone ejected)

Defender collision
Real world example: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/12/sp...mets.html?_r=0
- applicable for outfielders, infielders, or infielder/outfielder collsions
- potential injury risk for affected players

Collision at first between batter and fielder
Real world example: Edwin Encarnación Elbowed In The Head In Collision At First Base
"Ground ball to short.. the throw to first... and the first baseman and the batter collide! They're both down! That throw by the shortstop was wide.. and it drew the first baseman right into the running lane."
"The grounder scooped up by the first baseman... tosses to the pitcher... he's going to have to hustle to beat the speedy Hamilton to the bag.. race to the bag.. oh no! A terrible collision at first base!"

Baserunner colliding with an umpire while running the bases
Real world example: Must C: Collision | MLB.com
- could also impact being thrown out/not advancing on the basepaths

Last edited by ToTheBackstop; 08-12-2014 at 10:21 PM.
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Old 08-13-2014, 11:35 AM   #4
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All pretty awesome suggestions. Will be interesting to see what else comes up.
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Old 08-13-2014, 05:47 PM   #5
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Is fan interference part of OOTP? I've never seen it happen. We need a Steve Bartman scenario if it doesn't already exist.
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Old 08-13-2014, 07:46 PM   #6
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Is fan interference part of OOTP? I've never seen it happen. We need a Steve Bartman scenario if it doesn't already exist.
Agreed, it should be there if it's not, and as was said in the other thread just now, a ball boy fielding a fair ball.
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Old 08-13-2014, 08:06 PM   #7
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Rare plays? How about batting out of turn—see this list over at Retrosheet. Then there's also lost home runs—see the list at Retrosheet.

For something more at the team level but still nonetheless a rare event, there's forfeited games. See here for Retrosheet's list of forfeited games. In a similar vein, there's no decision games, where a win, loss, or tie result was voided due to a successful protest by one of the clubs involved and the game replayed. Here is Retrosheet's list of such games. (Note that no decision games can't really be replicated until such time as OOTP is able to handle postponements and rescheduling.)

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Old 08-13-2014, 08:10 PM   #8
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To be fair though, some of these scenerios might already be in the game. Given their rarity it's fairly likely that even if it was part of the current script, we have never encountered it.
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Old 08-13-2014, 08:10 PM   #9
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Agreed, it should be there if it's not, and as was said in the other thread just now, a ball boy fielding a fair ball.
Yup, I had the ballboy-fielding-live-ball listed above (with videos!)

Another goofy one:

Defender losing track of the number of outs and throwing the ball into the stands with runners on base
Real world example: Bradley's ill-timed souvenir | MLB.com
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Old 08-13-2014, 08:25 PM   #10
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For something more at the team level but still nonetheless a rare event, there's forfeited games. See here for Retrosheet's list of forfeited games. In a similar vein, there's no decision games, where a win, loss, or tie result was voided due to a successful protest by one of the clubs involved and the game replayed. Here is Retrosheet's list of such games. (Note that no decision games can't really be replicated until such time as OOTP is able to handle postponements and rescheduling.)
I'd love to see the possibility of forfeited games or no decision games, or even games where a manager can formally lodge a complaint and play the remainder of the game under protest!

If we're extending the thread to rare events, just on the game delay front, I have a bunch. OOTP clearly has game delays due to rain, and apparently even snow(!) and streakers (I haven't personally seen the last two yet); this could be extended to:
  • wind delays
  • fog delays
  • power outage (especially if it's a night game)
  • migrating insect swarms
  • birds landing on the field
  • animals loose on the field (e.g. squirrels, etc.)

I think I've seen all of these in real life except the wind delay.
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Old 08-13-2014, 08:28 PM   #11
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To be fair though, some of these scenerios might already be in the game. Given their rarity it's fairly likely that even if it was part of the current script, we have never encountered it.
No, most of the rare plays cited earlier are not in the game. I submitted a list of over 100 rare plays to Markus. If by chance he shows interest in adding some of them, I'll also direct him to this thread.
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Old 08-14-2014, 10:08 AM   #12
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I'd love to see the possibility of forfeited games or no decision games, or even games where a manager can formally lodge a complaint and play the remainder of the game under protest!

If we're extending the thread to rare events, just on the game delay front, I have a bunch. OOTP clearly has game delays due to rain, and apparently even snow(!) and streakers (I haven't personally seen the last two yet); this could be extended to:
  • wind delays
  • fog delays
  • power outage (especially if it's a night game)
  • migrating insect swarms
  • birds landing on the field
  • animals loose on the field (e.g. squirrels, etc.)

I think I've seen all of these in real life except the wind delay.
IIRC there is PbP for a short delay due to an animal on the field.
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Old 08-14-2014, 05:22 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by ToTheBackstop View Post
IIf we're extending the thread to rare events, just on the game delay front, I have a bunch. OOTP clearly has game delays due to rain, and apparently even snow(!) and streakers (I haven't personally seen the last two yet); this could be extended to:
  • wind delays
  • fog delays
  • power outage (especially if it's a night game)
  • migrating insect swarms
  • birds landing on the field
  • animals loose on the field (e.g. squirrels, etc.)
If OOTP ever is able to have postponed games, a similar list will apply. That is, while the vast majority of games are postponed due to weather (either directly or indirectly), on occasion games are postponed for other reasons, such as power outages, a team or its equipment not arriving on time, etc. A quick examination of the last few years of major and minor league postponement yields a figure of roughly 1.5% of postponed games being postponed for reasons other than weather.

What this means in practice is that even a game in a domed stadium should have a (small) chance of being postponed.
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Old 08-14-2014, 06:39 PM   #14
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If OOTP ever is able to have postponed games, a similar list will apply. That is, while the vast majority of games are postponed due to weather (either directly or indirectly), on occasion games are postponed for other reasons, such as power outages, a team or its equipment not arriving on time, etc. A quick examination of the last few years of major and minor league postponement yields a figure of roughly 1.5% of postponed games being postponed for reasons other than weather.

What this means in practice is that even a game in a domed stadium should have a (small) chance of being postponed.
I, for one, hope OOTP gets postponed games eventually. I know Markus has suggested that it would be a monumental issue to code though (and, as a programmer, I agree, it would be).
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Old 08-14-2014, 07:56 PM   #15
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I, for one, hope OOTP gets postponed games eventually. I know Markus has suggested that it would be a monumental issue to code though (and, as a programmer, I agree, it would be).
I've begun backing the suggestion a lot more strongly, for a few reasons.

Baseball is unique amongst the big team sports in that it is the only one in which its contests can be routinely postponed until a later date. That sort of thing is extremely rare in basketball, football, or hockey, but it is an accepted (traditional?) part of baseball. So there's the accuracy and uniqueness aspect.

Then there's the strategic aspect. A game postponed often means two games on another day. An unexpected off day combined with two games the next day clearly will have an impact on how a manager handles his pitching rotation and usage. While such postponement disruptions are infrequent these days in earlier times they were much more common.

Both of these things together fall under the larger umbrella of immersion. It would make the OOTP game world feel more like the real thing with all its idiosyncrasies in my opinion.

I think it's doable. The are certainly issues that need to be taken into account, but I've put some thought into those.
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Old 08-14-2014, 08:10 PM   #16
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I think it's doable. The are certainly issues that need to be taken into account, but I've put some thought into those.
I agree, I think it's doable eventually. It does raise some potentially interesting database issues (the kind of thing that could lead to file corruption, probably) if it's not done properly though.
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Old 08-14-2014, 08:35 PM   #17
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IIRC there is PbP for a short delay due to an animal on the field.
Oh cool -- that's great! I haven't run into that one yet. I just had the delay-by-beach-ball last night, which was fun to see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange View Post
A quick examination of the last few years of major and minor league postponement yields a figure of roughly 1.5% of postponed games being postponed for reasons other than weather.

What this means in practice is that even a game in a domed stadium should have a (small) chance of being postponed.
Interesting stuff. Surprised to learn that it's as high as 1.5%, but I don't doubt your figures at all. And yes, absolutely there's the possibility for postponed games in domed stadiums -- a real-world example would be the postponed matches in Montreal's deteriorating Olympic Stadium when parts of the stadium were falling onto the field. There could be any number of facilities-related reasons why games could be postponed in a domed stadium -- flooding (an extreme fictional version of Oakland Coliseum's notorious sewage problems), fire, the aforementioned power outage, etc. There could also be regional-related causes for a postponement -- earthquake, gas leak requiring local evacuation, unrest/rioting causing local curfews, etc.

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Then there's the strategic aspect. A game postponed often means two games on another day. An unexpected off day combined with two games the next day clearly will have an impact on how a manager handles his pitching rotation and usage. While such postponement disruptions are infrequent these days in earlier times they were much more common.
Absolutely. In fact, it'd be nice if in addition to unplanned doubleheaders caused by postponements, the season scheduler would support planned doubleheaders, complete with all the fatigue-related consequences. (I know that these are scarce nowadays due to desire to maximize gate revenue, but it wasn't that long ago when doubleheaders (or even day/night doubleheaders) were part of a standard team schedule.

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Both of these things together fall under the larger umbrella of immersion. It would make the OOTP game world feel more like the real thing with all its idiosyncrasies in my opinion.
Amen -- I recognize that some might scoff at such minutia, but it's all about the immersive quality that it would provide.

Back to plays -- I've never seen it yet in OOTP, but I might just be unlucky so far. (It's not that rare in real life):

The 4-1 groundout
Real life example: Dozier, Gibson combine for out | MLB.com

(This is simply the groundball to right which the second baseman fields. The first baseman is too far to reach the bag in time, so the throw goes to the pitcher covering the bag.)
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Old 08-15-2014, 02:31 AM   #18
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I agree, I think it's doable eventually. It does raise some potentially interesting database issues (the kind of thing that could lead to file corruption, probably) if it's not done properly though.
The way I see it working is that there'd be two schedule files for a season. The first is the 'original' or 'planned' schedule file, which would be the same as it is now. When the regular season is about to begin, OOTP makes a copy of that schedule file—this copy would be the 'dynamic' schedule file. It is in this 'dynamic' file that OOTP would mark off postponed games and add the dates for the rescheduled contests. Thus the original schedule file is always there, preserved unchanged, and can be reused each season to generate a new schedule just as it does now. The day-to-day changes are handled in the 'dynamic' copy. This separation makes sense from a procedural point of view, and it should eliminate the chance of the day-to-day changes caused by postponement and rescheduling possibly corrupting the base schedule file.

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Interesting stuff. Surprised to learn that it's as high as 1.5%, but I don't doubt your figures at all.
There is a small difference between the majors and minors. I don't have exhaustive data; but I did use what I have, which are the day-by-day results for MLB from 2009-13 and the affiliated minor leagues (excluding the AZL and GCL) for 2013.

Once the 2014 season is done that'll add another year to both the majors and minors.

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Absolutely. In fact, it'd be nice if in addition to unplanned doubleheaders caused by postponements, the season scheduler would support planned doubleheaders, complete with all the fatigue-related consequences.
Yes, there would have to be some GUI changes within OOTP to properly reflect doubleheaders.

There should also be recognition by OOTP of the two types of doubleheaders: the standard two-for-one, single admission type and the split, day-night, separate admission type. The difference between these would have an impact on the RTS feature, amongst other things, due to the different start times involved. (Two-for-one twin bills have the second game starting 30 minutes after the first game ends, while day-night affairs have defined starting times for each game.)
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Old 08-23-2014, 02:46 PM   #19
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Very interesting list, I hope they all get picked up
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Old 08-23-2014, 06:20 PM   #20
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There should also be recognition by OOTP of the two types of doubleheaders: the standard two-for-one, single admission type and the split, day-night, separate admission type. The difference between these would have an impact on the RTS feature, amongst other things, due to the different start times involved. (Two-for-one twin bills have the second game starting 30 minutes after the first game ends, while day-night affairs have defined starting times for each game.)
Didn't see this before, but it's definitely something that should be added. Drifting slightly off topic, but speaking of double headers, it would be nice to see the inclusion of 7 inning double headers for minor leagues (I appreciate though that that raises some potentially difficult database issues).
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