Minor League Setup and Minor League Players

[jhart05]

The last and only version that I've purchased so far was 13. So forgive me if either of these have been addressed already in 14.

Minor League Setup.

Ability to use an excel .csv file to import the minor leagues how you want them from the start. I want to be able to use the great work from the community and have real Minor League teams. Don't really care if the minor league teams are historically correct, just want to use the real teams, logos, uniforms, etc... You could use the same/similar file you use when already in a game and you export the list of teams. (I do know you can change them once in the game. Being able to import would save me time thou.)


Minor League Players.

I wanted to start in 1971. Got everything set up including the minors, spent a good 2 hours on that, plus other external excel file work setup. Finally got it all going, then I'm looking at low level minor leaguers. 17, 18 year old kids in their 1st year of pro ball in Rookie League/Low A, having a 200 for their fielding. That kind of ruined it for me. I'm one that would like to spend time in the minors developing those players. Now, maybe I'm not understanding how that rating works. Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but doesn't that mean he has no room to improve his fielding at all?

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by jhart05

17, 18 year old kids in their 1st year of pro ball in Rookie League/Low A, having a 200 for their fielding. That kind of ruined it for me. I'm one that would like to spend time in the minors developing those players. Now, maybe I'm not understanding how that rating works. Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but doesn't that mean he has no room to improve his fielding at all?

Pretty much.

About that though. It's been pretty well established that fielding (range, not errors) is something that actually peaks extremely early in a players career. In fact many teenagers and players in their early 20's playing in the minors have better range than they will when they reach the majors. Range is something that typically goes down throughout a players career, not up.

OOTP actually gets this right, at least according to all the studies I've read on the subject.

As for the excel idea and more historical minors, I agree completely. I've been pushing for more historical minors for a while, but no one seems eager to make that happen. Your excel idea would help. Hope this happens.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by lukasberger

As for the excel idea and more historical minors, I agree completely. I've been pushing for more historical minors for a while, but no one seems eager to make that happen. Your excel idea would help. Hope this happens.

The problem with it is that the minor leagues have changed so often and so much over the years that putting together a database for it would be a vast amount of work. There are several posts by LGO explaining some of the issues with doing something like this.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

The problem with it is that the minor leagues have changed so often and so much over the years that putting together a database for it would be a vast amount of work. There are several posts by LGO explaining some of the issues with doing something like this.

SABR is putting together the minor league stats, but it'll be a long process.

Just in terms of teams and leagues it's huge. I'm currently working on a little project to leverage the real minor leagues as a basis for fictional league creation. (Nothing more realistic in feeling than a league based on a real-world one in terms of city composition, league name, playoff formats, etc.) Counting each separately-named baseball league span that's existed since 1871, there's roughly 500 hundred of them. (Most leagues didn't last long, just a few seasons.)


I would definitely agree that the process of setting up leagues in OOTP could be made much better. It would be very handy indeed to have a way to set up many of the league's parameters in some sort of file external to the game and then import the results. (Not unlike how schedule files can be done outside the game.)

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

The problem with it is that the minor leagues have changed so often and so much over the years that putting together a database for it would be a vast amount of work. There are several posts by LGO explaining some of the issues with doing something like this.

Yeah. LGO and I went at it (in a friendly way) on the beta forums on the subject.

There are indeed substantive issues to making this happen. But we wouldn't have to have things 100% perfect to make this worth doing. I'll attach my last response in the discussion LGO and I had.

Originally Posted by lukasberger

These are good points. I understand where you're coming from on this. To be realistic about it, we'll never be able to fully, exactly and perfectly recreate the entire minor league history, in OOTP or any other game, because of the many complexities involved which you address very well.

But then the question becomes, since we can't do this 100% perfectly, should we simply not do it at all?

I don't see that that follows. As you say, 19th century baseball in OOTP is far from perfect. But it's still in the game in all its imperfect, less than historical, glory. And the game is far better for that.

Not to mention that there are other things in OOTP that aren't quite "right". The draft doesn't have the signing bonus slotting system or bonus pool caps implemented. The international complexes don't really exist in reality as they're implemented in game, as the DSL and VSL actually play games, which doesn't happen in the int complexes as of now. For some years even the current MLB rosters were missing players, lacked stats for minor league players and had players that weren't even rated. Thankfully that's not the case anymore, but it was for a while. That didn't stop us from putting real rosters in OOTP and then working to improve them.

I could go on and on about things in OOTP that aren't quite right and don't match the current or historical reality. But most of those features still add enormous amounts of fun to the game and make things feel more real than if they didn't exist in game at all.

We could do the same kind of thing for the historical minors and do it very well. Do it in a way that adds a lot of flavour, complexity, historical detail, and fun to the game. It wouldn't be perfect, but that shouldn't be the question. The question should be this: Would it be better than what we have now? It would. I'm sure of it.

Clearly, some compromises would have to be made. Some teams would be axed. Perhaps some leagues would have to be consolidated or expanded in slightly a-historical ways. Other hard choices might have to be made.

So yes, the results at that point won't be truly "historical". But the results you get when playing out seasons and careers in OOTP vary greatly from history too. OOTP is a game that uses history as a basic template to go on and create its own history. It's not really a historical simulator, rigid replay type game.

Because this can't immediately be done perfectly shouldn't mean that we throw the baby out with the bath water and do nothing. If the setup I'm proposing isn't 100% "historical" then so be it. It would still be far better and far more historical than what we have now, which is essentially no historical minor leagues and very few to no historical milb players.

Does that make any sense?

Will also add this:

As to the issue of a truncated and modified milb setup not being "historical", here's a question for LGO, or anyone who thinks we can't or shouldn't try to implement a less than perfect historical milb setup. Which is actually more historical, to have many historical milb teams, players and leagues included, but with some leagues and teams cut, some leagues modified etc. to created a streamlined database that could actually be used by the game, or to pretend that the historical minor league teams and players didn't exist at all, as OOTP does now? I think the answer to that is clear.

As to the issues with building a db, they would be huge. It's something that would take a lot of time and effort from multiple people. But it'll never happen now since OOTP doesn't have the capability to make use of such a db. So why would anyone waste their time making it? They wouldn't.

This isn't a chicken or egg situation. It's clear that to ever have any hope of historical milb teams or players, OOTP would need to be changed first. So that's what I'm pushing for that's the first step. For the team to setup OOTP in a way that it could handle multiple historical databases and multiple historical leagues. Jeff has stated that FHM will eventually have the functionality to run multiple historical leagues. OOTP needs to do the same! Doing so would also allow for other benefits, most importantly, the ability to run historical MLB and *** leagues side by side without the massive amount of user oversight that is currently involved in such a league.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by lukasberger

As to the issue of a truncated and modified milb setup not being "historical", here's a question for LGO, or anyone who thinks we can't or shouldn't try to implement a less than perfect historical milb setup. Which is actually more historical, to have many historical milb teams, players and leagues included, but with some leagues and teams cut, some leagues modified etc. to created a streamlined database that could actually be used by the game, or to pretend that the historical minor league teams and players didn't exist at all, as OOTP does now? I think the answer to that is clear.

I generally have two terms I use in the regards to the historical aspect. There's "historically accurate" which means as close to the historical reality as it is reasonably possible to get, and "historically authentic" which means it has much of the flavour of the real history but with certain necessary departures from reality due to various constraints.

The problem with the real minors is the sheer range of change. It's vast. Roughly 500 leagues. Affiliations changed frequently. Teams came into and passed out of existence often. Clubs relocate at a far higher pace than that seen in the majors (in the 1983-present period in the minors, the rate of relocation in the minors was four times higher than that seen in all of MLB from 1901-present).

While the major leagues are a lake of relative consistency and stability, the minors are an ocean of seemingly never-ending change.

Originally Posted by lukasberger

As to the issues with building a db, they would be huge. It's something that would take a lot of time and effort from multiple people. But it'll never happen now since OOTP doesn't have the capability to make use of such a db. So why would anyone waste their time making it? They wouldn't.

I've already put together a simple league database. For each year, it lists the leagues which played, the number of teams which started the season, the number of divisions, the alignment, the number of playoff qualifiers, and the length of each playoff round. It also contains the regular season schedule length in some cases, lists those instances where teams departed or joined a league during a season, and various notes. I've posted excerpts from this file before.

I've been meaning to publicly release a v1.0 of this file so folks could use it as reference in setting up their leagues according to the prevailing real-world conditions which existed in a given year. Just haven't been able to get around to it yet...

[jhart05]

Just to clarify my original point with the Minor League teams.

I know some do, but I personally don't care if they are historically accurate. I would just prefer an easier way to use actual Minor League teams, so we can use the excellent uniforms, logos, and such that have been put together.

Takes a lot of time to set up 3 or 4 minor league levels when you have to manually put everything in for 24 or 30 MLB teams.

A .csv import would work very nicely here.

[jhart05]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

I would definitely agree that the process of setting up leagues in OOTP could be made much better. It would be very handy indeed to have a way to set up many of the league's parameters in some sort of file external to the game and then import the results. (Not unlike how schedule files can be done outside the game.)

This is pretty much exactly what I'm suggesting.

[jhart05]

Originally Posted by lukasberger

Pretty much.

About that though. It's been pretty well established that fielding (range, not errors) is something that actually peaks extremely early in a players career. In fact many teenagers and players in their early 20's playing in the minors have better range than they will when they reach the majors. Range is something that typically goes down throughout a players career, not up.

OOTP actually gets this right, at least according to all the studies I've read on the subject.

Range of course makes sense. What about the player's other ratings? Error, Arm, DP? Does he have any chance at all of making those better if that overall rating is already 200?

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by jhart05

Range of course makes sense. What about the player's other ratings? Error, Arm, DP? Does he have any chance at all of making those better if that overall rating is already 200?

Yes. The overall rating, as with the rest of the ratings actually goes to 250 even though ratings over 200 don't show their exact value unless you change the default setting to show ratings greater than 200.

Plus, an overall rating of 200 will include component ratings below 200. Any of those component ratings can and will increase (or decrease) over time.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by jhart05

The last and only version that I've purchased so far was 13. So forgive me if either of these have been addressed already in 14.




Minor League Players.

I wanted to start in 1971. Got everything set up including the minors, spent a good 2 hours on that, plus other external excel file work setup. Finally got it all going, then I'm looking at low level minor leaguers. 17, 18 year old kids in their 1st year of pro ball in Rookie League/Low A, having a 200 for their fielding. That kind of ruined it for me. I'm one that would like to spend time in the minors developing those players. Now, maybe I'm not understanding how that rating works. Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but doesn't that mean he has no room to improve his fielding at all?

Never seen a 200 fielding rating. I use 1-5 some use 1-100. There are several other ranges available.

Are you referring to a position rating? Perhaps an experience rating which is not visible?

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by lukasberger

Jeff has stated that FHM will eventually have the functionality to run multiple historical leagues. OOTP needs to do the same! Doing so would also allow for other benefits, most importantly, the ability to run historical MLB and *** leagues side by side without the massive amount of user oversight that is currently involved in such a league.

I agree on this part, for sure.

[jhart05]

Originally Posted by RchW

Never seen a 200 fielding rating. I use 1-5 some use 1-100. There are several other ranges available.

Are you referring to a position rating? Perhaps an experience rating which is not visible?

Yes, this: "experience rating which is not visible?"

The experience rating that you see with the editor on. Seems strange to me to have a 17-year old kid in Rookie ball already have an experience rating of 200.

[OutS|der]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

I would definitely agree that the process of setting up leagues in OOTP could be made much better. It would be very handy indeed to have a way to set up many of the league's parameters in some sort of file external to the game and then import the results. (Not unlike how schedule files can be done outside the game.)

I would love something like this. I'm just starting a plan to make a 36 team fictional league with full minors, as many as the Independent leagues i can find nice logo and uniforms for, Cuba league, Full Nippon and Full MLB leagues, This many leagues and teams all to support The Full NCAA Mod as a feeder plus adding a full Div II and III leagues since Eriqjaffe keeps making full logos and uniforms.

Even just planing out the 36 team league and where i want the teams and what logos is hard enough, i am not looking forward to setting this up.

As it now it's easier to create a league by itself and save it as a template then load all together to even make it feasible. Even then setting cities and stadium info and anything else is just to much work to even do.
There must be an easier way

[RchW]

Originally Posted by jhart05

Yes, this: "experience rating which is not visible?"

The experience rating that you see with the editor on. Seems strange to me to have a 17-year old kid in Rookie ball already have an experience rating of 200.

The experience rating AFAIK establishes that one can play the position ie 200 is fully experienced . The actual fielding ratings can and do vary from that based on the natural ups and downs in a players development. I remember reading that the infield in Las Vegas was so hard and bad that fielding metrics for players there were somewhat useless. That in OOTP should be reflected in variable defensive ratings. Now there's a good feature request. How about a scale for IF quality speed sure bounces etc.

I would absolutely expect my minor league draftees to be fully experienced in at least one primary position and/or a second position. I would not expect their actual ratings and performance to be fully formed unless they are exceptional talents. Changes in these ratings should be reflected in position changes. One of the most common being college or high school SS being weeded out (usually due to arm) as they rise to become 2B or less often 3B. OOTP is not yet sophisticated enough to force players to primary positions during development. Lets face it many hot shots including pitchers also play SS and CF when young but will never play there even in the high minors.

What OOTP did badly in the past up to v13 was giving too many IF great ratings at 5 positions. It also seemed too easy to learn at the MLB level. I made the point that the ability to learn a new, even if related position, should decline at the MLB level. This would force decisions to learn new positions back to the minors. The glut of multi position players seems less in v14 but not enough seasons have passed to confirm this.

[jhart05]

Originally Posted by RchW

The experience rating AFAIK establishes that one can play the position ie 200 is fully experienced . The actual fielding ratings can and do vary from that based on the natural ups and downs in a players development. I remember reading that the infield in Las Vegas was so hard and bad that fielding metrics for players there were somewhat useless. That in OOTP should be reflected in variable defensive ratings. Now there's a good feature request. How about a scale for IF quality speed sure bounces etc.

I would absolutely expect my minor league draftees to be fully experienced in at least one primary position and/or a second position. I would not expect their actual ratings and performance to be fully formed unless they are exceptional talents. Changes in these ratings should be reflected in position changes. One of the most common being college or high school SS being weeded out (usually due to arm) as they rise to become 2B or less often 3B. OOTP is not yet sophisticated enough to force players to primary positions during development. Lets face it many hot shots including pitchers also play SS and CF when young but will never play there even in the high minors.

What OOTP did badly in the past up to v13 was giving too many IF great ratings at 5 positions. It also seemed too easy to learn at the MLB level. I made the point that the ability to learn a new, even if related position, should decline at the MLB level. This would force decisions to learn new positions back to the minors. The glut of multi position players seems less in v14 but not enough seasons have passed to confirm this.

All right, I'll take that. So it appears I have been interpreting that experience rating incorrectly.

Thanks all, for the help in clearing up that issue for me.

[jhart05]

Originally Posted by OutS|der

I would love something like this. I'm just starting a plan to make a 36 team fictional league with full minors, as many as the Independent leagues i can find nice logo and uniforms for, Cuba league, Full Nippon and Full MLB leagues, This many leagues and teams all to support The Full NCAA Mod as a feeder plus adding a full Div II and III leagues since Eriqjaffe keeps making full logos and uniforms.

Even just planing out the 36 team league and where i want the teams and what logos is hard enough, i am not looking forward to setting this up.

As it now it's easier to create a league by itself and save it as a template then load all together to even make it feasible. Even then setting cities and stadium info and anything else is just to much work to even do.
There must be an easier way

Exactly my frustration as well.

[The Game]

Originally Posted by jhart05

Just to clarify my original point with the Minor League teams.

I know some do, but I personally don't care if they are historically accurate. I would just prefer an easier way to use actual Minor League teams, so we can use the excellent uniforms, logos, and such that have been put together.

Takes a lot of time to set up 3 or 4 minor league levels when you have to manually put everything in for 24 or 30 MLB teams.

A .csv import would work very nicely here.

To set up a 1971 full minor league should not take but a few hours. Not including accurate players. The teams and their affiliates can be found on baseball reference:
Minor League Affiliations - Baseball-Reference.com
Just gotta find all the uniforms for them. No Pepper, That Seventies guy, txranger & others have most of them. Took me about 2 hours to set up AAA, AA & A for 1946. I have one team per level. i do not have all the uniforms, but all parks are accurate some have .prk files from Gambo's set.

[jhart05]

Originally Posted by The Game

To set up a 1971 full minor league should not take but a few hours.

Exactly. 2 to 3 hours of setup time. I see that as a lot of wasted time for me.

A .csv file should cut that down to 2 to 3 minutes.

And if you make a mistake, or something crashes in the middle, or you want to try it with a different DB, you have start all over.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by jhart05

Exactly. 2 to 3 hours of setup time. I see that as a lot of wasted time for me.

A .csv file should cut that down to 2 to 3 minutes.

And if you make a mistake, or something crashes in the middle, or you want to try it with a different DB, you have start all over.

I wish everything was loadable via csv's or text files. I micro adjust LTM's via Excel and would love to enter that data directly in the game.