penalties for too many ip's

waltwa · 07-06-2013, 07:05 PM

I am seeing unbelievably great results for pitchers pitching 250+ innings in online leagues in the modern era.

The top sp in 2012 in MLB was 238 innings. I am seeing sp's pitch 300 innings and do it year after year with no adverse results. There is all kinds of research that indicate pitchers suffer all kinds of damage if they pitch excess innings particularly if they are in early to mid 20's. Bill James did a research project on this exact subject years ago and saw that too many innings before a pitcher reached 25 had an adverse reaction on the subsequent career.

Maybe there could be an option to penalize pitchers for throwing too many innings or not if the legue so chooses.

The penalty could be poor results or increased chances of injury.

RchW · 07-06-2013, 08:11 PM

I'd suggest checking your settings first. You may have a setting that allows for more innings pitched. I do this deliberately where modern settings are used but SP are more dominant.

See the screenshot.

waltwa · 07-06-2013, 08:24 PM

rich I am talking about online leagues where I have no control.

RchW · 07-06-2013, 08:48 PM

Sorry, I missed that key word.

The online league could change settings though.

Kobeck · 07-06-2013, 09:56 PM

what do you change them to?

waltwa · 07-07-2013, 12:14 PM

I found that a very good online league I am in in the year 2061 has a number of 4 man sp staffs and actually 9 man total staffs. The settings for the league are what u would see in a typical 2013 solo league- 5 man staff with low sp stamina. Yet the best team in the league (along with 5 others) has a 4 man staff.

The pitch counts for the sp's don't seem to be any higher than the norm (100-110) but the innings pitched are usually in excess of 250 and reach up to 300. The real MLB leader was 238 in 2012.

in looking at a couple of sp's with long careers and IP's over 250 I can't see any decrease in effectiveness or increase in injuries.

I think the game has to deal with the problem of allowing sp's to pitch high innings and not have any consequences. I don't think the settings has any effect- it just serves as a guide for real MLB but if not followed there are no consequences

There simply has to be some basis for every team in MLB paying strict attention to pitch counts and IP's. If there were no side effects guys like Kershaw would be pitching the 5th game instead of a no-name 5th sp.

I also feel the game can increase injuries or career effectiveness. I think it already does with players who have a low work ethic. they seem either never to reach their peak or if they do their effective careers seem to drop off sooner than normal to high work ethic players.

Bluenoser · 07-07-2013, 05:33 PM

Doesn't matter if it's an online league or not.

If it is online, then discuss it with your commish and among the owners. If there's a general concensus that it's a problem, have the Commish make the needed changes. That is what those settings are for.

I'm not against adding options to OOTP, but it's pointless to add options for something you can already do in game.

waltwa · 07-07-2013, 06:50 PM

Blue noser its a little more complicated than that. I did check on the settings and they are geared to 2013. that is 5 man rotation and low sp stamina. the problem is that even tho those are the settings sp's can still pitch 250+ innings w/o any fear of injury or diminished effectiveness over the course of their career.

In real MLB all teams seem to realize that overall high innings pitched will result in a higher chance of injury or reduced effectiveness over the course of their career. this may not affect knuckleballers but seems to be prevalent thinking on all other pitchers inc. relievers.

This is why I think the modern game (sometime around 1980) has to factor into the game the chance of increased injury and diminished effectiveness. I am almost positive that the settings don't affect the pitchers as much as they should

Some online leagues just install the correct settings and then allow teams to have whatever amount of pitchers they want to carry. A 4man staff of good sp's is really tough to beat and easier to put together than 5 good sp's.

OOtp prides itself on realism and with good reason. I just think this is an area that has to be looked at. If I am warned that overuse is built into the game and will result in affecting my sp's adversely I will stick with the recommended usage but I don't think that is the case in this area

pstrickert · 07-07-2013, 07:00 PM

I created a bug report for this issue. Hopefully, Markus will weigh in.

Bluenoser · 07-07-2013, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waltwa

Blue noser its a little more complicated than that. I did check on the settings and they are geared to 2013. that is 5 man rotation and low sp stamina. the problem is that even tho those are the settings sp's can still pitch 250+ innings w/o any fear of injury or diminished effectiveness over the course of their career.

In real MLB all teams seem to realize that overall high innings pitched will result in a higher chance of injury or reduced effectiveness over the course of their career. this may not affect knuckleballers but seems to be prevalent thinking on all other pitchers inc. relievers.

This is why I think the modern game (sometime around 1980) has to factor into the game the chance of increased injury and diminished effectiveness. I am almost positive that the settings don't affect the pitchers as much as they should

Some online leagues just install the correct settings and then allow teams to have whatever amount of pitchers they want to carry. A 4man staff of good sp's is really tough to beat and easier to put together than 5 good sp's.

OOtp prides itself on realism and with good reason. I just think this is an area that has to be looked at. If I am warned that overuse is built into the game and will result in affecting my sp's adversely I will stick with the recommended usage but I don't think that is the case in this area

I did not say gear your settings to 2013. I suggested discussing it with your Commish and owners, and if you all feel it's a problem within your league, make adjustments to tone it down. That is why those settings are in the game, for you to adjust things to the way you like the. Adding an option that punishes pitchers for too many innings is just putting a Band-Aid on what may be an internal problem with the engine.

pstricket has posted a bug report so Markus can look at it. If it's broken internally, I'm sure he'll fix it. Much better than just adding an option to "work around" what may be a problem.

RchW · 07-07-2013, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waltwa

I found that a very good online league I am in in the year 2061 has a number of 4 man sp staffs and actually 9 man total staffs. The settings for the league are what u would see in a typical 2013 solo league- 5 man staff with low sp stamina. Yet the best team in the league (along with 5 others) has a 4 man staff.

The pitch counts for the sp's don't seem to be any higher than the norm (100-110) but the innings pitched are usually in excess of 250 and reach up to 300. The real MLB leader was 238 in 2012.

Then I suggest you check further. Is the SP stamina modifier above 1? Perhaps the player creation mods (stamina) are elevated. What is the league BA and ERA? They will indicate if it is a pitching dominant environment.

Whatever the settings, a 4 man rotation and 5 man bullpen is not indicative of the past decade in MLB, so one can't apply current concerns about SP abuse to a different set of parameters

Quote:

Originally Posted by waltwa

in looking at a couple of sp's with long careers and IP's over 250 I can't see any decrease in effectiveness or increase in injuries.

I think the game has to deal with the problem of allowing sp's to pitch high innings and not have any consequences. I don't think the settings has any effect- it just serves as a guide for real MLB but if not followed there are no consequences

There simply has to be some basis for every team in MLB paying strict attention to pitch counts and IP's. If there were no side effects guys like Kershaw would be pitching the 5th game instead of a no-name 5th sp.

I also feel the game can increase injuries or career effectiveness. I think it already does with players who have a low work ethic. they seem either never to reach their peak or if they do their effective careers seem to drop off sooner than normal to high work ethic players.

Re the bold; I can only repeat the the pitching results you report seem to be a deliberate choice of the league creator. You can't expect the AI to apply current era consequences to pitchers with different attributes.

As Bluenoser says check with the commissioner to see if this is considered a problem.

waltwa · 07-07-2013, 08:19 PM

I don't know if it is a bug or not but I do know that it does not give u an option to reflect how "real" modern baseball is played and that is what I would like to see.

In my league which is a great league I don't think the Comm or the bulk of /gms see it as a problem but I am in a lot of leagues and I would like to see it fixed if possible.

What is the case in ootp if u play a league in the 1940's u don't have much use for real relievers but the 1940 game is not the 2000+ game and that is what I want to see reflected in the game. From what I have seen I don't think settings answer the problem. Obviously u can pass a rule to have 5 man staffs but if in fact a 4 man staff is better in 2013 than it seems like a weird rule.

I would rather see a realistic game that says Beware if u overuse your pitchers. It may and probably will ruin their careers.

RchW · 07-07-2013, 09:08 PM

There is information missing yet. What are the league BA and ERA for recent seasons? What is the BABIP set in the modifiers area? How many HR are hit each season? What about DP? How many starts do SP typically get? All of these results will tell us what sort of run environment exists in the league. I think it's somewhat strange to blame the game for something being wrong but resist giving out information that might simply show that the league is designed to produce dominant pitchers. I've created and played leagues like this and so far the data I've seen supports that conclusion.

waltwa · 07-07-2013, 10:39 PM

Here I some info on the league. I have been in the league for about 35 seasons and my general impression has been a little more offense than u would see in mlb over the past 3 seasons.

Ba MLB-2012 .254 CDL - .261

ERA MLB-2012 3.95 CDL- 4.25

DP MLB- seems to be greater CDL= 1500 app

Hrs MLB- 2012 4000 app CDL- 4500 app

Some of the settings such as babip I have no access to. I am curious tho- what should it be set to. As far as starts go it is normal for a 5 man rotation and for a 4 man rotation app 40 per sp.

Isn't the bottom line tho that regardless of stats sp that pitch too much should have more injuries and reduced effectiveness.

The best team in cdl are the Red Sox with a 4man staff and an era of 3.31 which is 2nd best in the AL but the SP era is 3.47 which is the best in the AL.
not all teams that use a 4man staff are successful.
Now suppose all the modifiers were set to what a league should be in 2013 how would that impact the fact that sp can pitch 40 starts and up to 300 innings and not suffer any adverse reactions. the top sp on their staff is 34 and has pitched 12 seasons and exceeded 250 innings 9 times and has an era of 2.85. acc to bill james this guy would be in a casket or at least his arm would.

See I don't see this as a setting problem but more as a games drawback. now in my solo league I have all teams set to 5 man rotations so there is no problem. but in a modern online league some leagues have rules on staff size and some don't. If a 4man staff can be effective in OOTP modern then of course a gm would use that. my feeling tho is that it should not be effective except maybe for a short haul.

But I would be interested into what u think the exact settings should be that would make a 4man staff ineffective in modern baseball.

RchW · 07-08-2013, 01:57 AM

I'm familiar with the CDL. Was in it for 10 seasons and still keep a link to it. Looking at many of the pitchers drafted in 2060 an inordinate number have multiple pitches often with good ratings and good to great stamina. There are pitchers drafted in the 7th even 9th round that are possible starters often with 4 pitches. That's a bucket full of potential starters. Way way more than I ever see in any draft.

Note this is a V13 league.

I may be wrong but the number of high stamina multi-pitch SP type pitchers available throughout the MLB and from the draft suggest that this is a league setting issue combined with feeder leagues. Player creation and stamina mod adjustment and possibly editing may also be done. The availability of so many high stamina starters would make it impossible not to use the best of them 37 to 40 times a season.

It also seems that the actual pitcher ratings are not too high so the stat output is close to reality. The number of shut outs and CG clearly indicate that this is a pitcher's league.

The reason the AI is not penalizing these pitchers is that they have sufficient attributes to pitch how they are used.

VanillaGorilla · 07-08-2013, 03:14 AM

Your pitchers will get injured if you overuse them. Pull a bonehead move like having only two pitchers in your rotation and start highest rested and sim for a month and see if you don't get at least one CEI out of the deal....that wasn't a fun day.

What is the injury setting for the league? There is cumulative fatigue/wear and tear that takes place, but I assume that that works with, and not separate from, the overall injury setting.

If you have the injuries set below "High" then you are playing in an environment where the injury rate is below that of today's MLB, and the injuries that occur from over use are similarly reduced by the overall injury setting.

The OP is asking about injuries. It would be good to have the league injury setting provided for the discussion.

Markus Heinsohn · 07-08-2013, 04:38 AM

Actually, modern research suggests that a 4-man rotation would indeed work if pitchers throw a bit less pitches per game and you throw in a spot starter every once in a while.

In OOTP pitchers starting with 3 days rest (on the "Low" setting for pitcher endurance) do get a penalty for performance and increased injury risk, but if you have a staff of 4 workhorses (high stamina rating) you may get away with it with some luck. I personally wouldn'T do it, though.

waltwa · 07-08-2013, 11:25 AM

What I checked is the recovery rate and I think it is too high for a modern league. My point is that the game should be structured so that regardless of the rules in an online modern league, teams should not be tempted to use 4 man staffs.

I am not quite sure what the rec rate for a sp is but I don't think it is as follows

day pitched Assuming the sp reaches close to pitch total- 0
1st day rec 20%
2nd 40%
3rd 60%
4th 80%
5th 100%

It seems to me what I am seeing is a 90% rec rate on day 4 and that is close enough too allow the sp to pitch.

But even if a team decides to pitch a sp on 90% rest the game if the settings are based on a 5man rotation everything should be done to penalize the team by increasing the injury factor or long term effectiveness of the sp and it is known in the general rules of the game so that teams (like real MLB) will simply not try 4 man rotations. The only exception will be if teams drop the pitch counts down to a low # like the rockies did in 2012

Matt Cain and Bumgarner are workhorses but they are also 20 mil $ pitchers. the sf giants are hurting for a 5th sp but they are not in the slightest tempted to start either guy with 3 days of rest.

I think it is ok to tamper with certain rules of the game such as salary caps,
fa comps etc but with player factors the game should try and stay as close as possible to the real game.

Fyrestorm3 · 07-08-2013, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waltwa

It seems to me what I am seeing is a 90% rec rate on day 4 and that is close enough too allow the sp to pitch.

So what you're arguing here is that it doesn't seem right to YOU, therefore it's wrong. I will agree that 80% seems like a better number for 3 days of rest, but I don't see anything wrong with 90%.

Quote:

Originally Posted by waltwa

But even if a team decides to pitch a sp on 90% rest the game if the settings are based on a 5man rotation everything should be done to penalize the team by increasing the injury factor or long term effectiveness of the sp and it is known in the general rules of the game so that teams (like real MLB) will simply not try 4 man rotations. The only exception will be if teams drop the pitch counts down to a low # like the rockies did in 2012

Did you read Markus's post?

Quote:

Originally Posted by waltwa

I think it is ok to tamper with certain rules of the game such as salary caps, fa comps etc but with player factors the game should try and stay as close as possible to the real game.

You do know that it the early years of the MLB, it was common to have a pitcher throw over 300 innings, or pitch both ends of a doubleheader, or start two games in a row. This was possible because the game was different, yes, but having that happen is not "tampering" with the rules - the whole point of OOTP is that you can set up the league however you want it. I've done a fictional league with a 3-man rotation, but according to your argument, that's not staying close to the real game, so I shouldn't be allowed to do it? That's what I'm getting from this, anyway.

Look, there could very well be something wrong with THIS specific game. But I highly, HIGHLY doubt there's something wrong with the game in general. Especially after hearing Markus himself weigh in on the issue.

EDIT: By the by, I just realized that you still haven't told us some crucial settings of the league, like Pitcher Stamina. If that option is set to anything but "Low," you don't have an argument.

EDIT2: Nevermind, I missed it myself.

waltwa · 07-08-2013, 01:34 PM

Why do u insist on making this personal. What do u mean it doesn't seem right to me?

Is there a team in the last 10 years in MLB that has gone with a 4 man rotation unless like the Rockies they drop the pitch count to around 75. I am referring to the way the game is actually played in real life. I have no problem if anyone wants to utilize settings that allow 4 man rotations or any kind of rotation. But what I would like to see if that a player or an online league sets up the settings or rules on a 5 man rotation that the game is structured to penalize any team that would go against the settings of the game.

We have all kinds of options in the game

salary cap or not
draft pick trading or not
and so on down the line. that is fine with me. In
IN fact altho I have never played it this way I think its possible to play w/o players getting tired- I don't care. Play the game any way u want!

All I am asking for is an option that will set up the modern game in terms of sp usage the way the modern game is actually played. If u don't play it that way then penalties will ensue. Now if there is a way to do that then let me know what the settings are

Please do not give me this "what is right for me"

I want to see a league starting in 2013 (e.g.) where the setting is set to a 5 man sp staff. Then if u don't stick with the 5 man staff then penalties ensue.
However I see nothing wrong with an additional setting that sets up a modern league and allows staffs of any size.

Again if there is a setting or group of settings that will penalize sp's for pitching high innings either by injury or loss of effectiveness (immediate or careerwise) let me know and I will give it a shot in a solo league and see how it works out. That is I will set up the rec settings and then play a 4 man staff and see how it affects the sp's. Its possible that there may be injuries or immediate loss of effectiveness but I would also want to see the strong possiblility of long term loss of effectiveness and be warned about it in the game manual and that does not exist in the game as far as I can see.

I follow the sf giants and this very story has cropped up this year based on the fact that the SF sp's have missed almost no starts (based on 5 man rotation) and early in the season guys like Cain and bumgarner were being rocked and there was some fear that they may have been overworked since 2010. this is with a 5 man staff which means that the thought of a 4 man staff would either get the mgr. fired or at the very least the GM would step in and change the staff back to 5.

this is not a criticism of the game which I have played since the start and have bought every edition. But every year players see things that might be helpful to making a better league and this is something I have noticed. I hope Markus gives it some thought- if not I will continue to buy and enjoy the game everyday.

07-06-2013, 07:05 PM	#1
waltwa All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 902	penalties for too many ip's I am seeing unbelievably great results for pitchers pitching 250+ innings in online leagues in the modern era. The top sp in 2012 in MLB was 238 innings. I am seeing sp's pitch 300 innings and do it year after year with no adverse results. There is all kinds of research that indicate pitchers suffer all kinds of damage if they pitch excess innings particularly if they are in early to mid 20's. Bill James did a research project on this exact subject years ago and saw that too many innings before a pitcher reached 25 had an adverse reaction on the subsequent career. Maybe there could be an option to penalize pitchers for throwing too many innings or not if the legue so chooses. The penalty could be poor results or increased chances of injury.

07-06-2013, 08:11 PM	#2
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: The big smoke Posts: 15,628	I'd suggest checking your settings first. You may have a setting that allows for more innings pitched. I do this deliberately where modern settings are used but SP are more dominant. See the screenshot. Attached Images __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

07-06-2013, 08:48 PM	#4
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: The big smoke Posts: 15,628	Sorry, I missed that key word. The online league could change settings though. __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

07-07-2013, 09:08 PM	#13
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: The big smoke Posts: 15,628	There is information missing yet. What are the league BA and ERA for recent seasons? What is the BABIP set in the modifiers area? How many HR are hit each season? What about DP? How many starts do SP typically get? All of these results will tell us what sort of run environment exists in the league. I think it's somewhat strange to blame the game for something being wrong but resist giving out information that might simply show that the league is designed to produce dominant pitchers. I've created and played leagues like this and so far the data I've seen supports that conclusion. __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

07-08-2013, 01:57 AM	#15
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: The big smoke Posts: 15,628	I'm familiar with the CDL. Was in it for 10 seasons and still keep a link to it. Looking at many of the pitchers drafted in 2060 an inordinate number have multiple pitches often with good ratings and good to great stamina. There are pitchers drafted in the 7th even 9th round that are possible starters often with 4 pitches. That's a bucket full of potential starters. Way way more than I ever see in any draft. Note this is a V13 league. I may be wrong but the number of high stamina multi-pitch SP type pitchers available throughout the MLB and from the draft suggest that this is a league setting issue combined with feeder leagues. Player creation and stamina mod adjustment and possibly editing may also be done. The availability of so many high stamina starters would make it impossible not to use the best of them 37 to 40 times a season. It also seems that the actual pitcher ratings are not too high so the stat output is close to reality. The number of shut outs and CG clearly indicate that this is a pitcher's league. The reason the AI is not penalizing these pitchers is that they have sufficient attributes to pitch how they are used. __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

07-06-2013, 08:24 PM	#3
waltwa All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 902	rich I am talking about online leagues where I have no control.

07-06-2013, 09:56 PM	#5
Kobeck Major Leagues Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 488	what do you change them to?

07-07-2013, 12:14 PM	#6
waltwa All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 902	I found that a very good online league I am in in the year 2061 has a number of 4 man sp staffs and actually 9 man total staffs. The settings for the league are what u would see in a typical 2013 solo league- 5 man staff with low sp stamina. Yet the best team in the league (along with 5 others) has a 4 man staff. The pitch counts for the sp's don't seem to be any higher than the norm (100-110) but the innings pitched are usually in excess of 250 and reach up to 300. The real MLB leader was 238 in 2012. in looking at a couple of sp's with long careers and IP's over 250 I can't see any decrease in effectiveness or increase in injuries. I think the game has to deal with the problem of allowing sp's to pitch high innings and not have any consequences. I don't think the settings has any effect- it just serves as a guide for real MLB but if not followed there are no consequences There simply has to be some basis for every team in MLB paying strict attention to pitch counts and IP's. If there were no side effects guys like Kershaw would be pitching the 5th game instead of a no-name 5th sp. I also feel the game can increase injuries or career effectiveness. I think it already does with players who have a low work ethic. they seem either never to reach their peak or if they do their effective careers seem to drop off sooner than normal to high work ethic players.

07-07-2013, 05:33 PM	#7
Bluenoser Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In The Moment Posts: 13,682	Doesn't matter if it's an online league or not. If it is online, then discuss it with your commish and among the owners. If there's a general concensus that it's a problem, have the Commish make the needed changes. That is what those settings are for. I'm not against adding options to OOTP, but it's pointless to add options for something you can already do in game.

07-07-2013, 06:50 PM	#8
waltwa All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 902	Blue noser its a little more complicated than that. I did check on the settings and they are geared to 2013. that is 5 man rotation and low sp stamina. the problem is that even tho those are the settings sp's can still pitch 250+ innings w/o any fear of injury or diminished effectiveness over the course of their career. In real MLB all teams seem to realize that overall high innings pitched will result in a higher chance of injury or reduced effectiveness over the course of their career. this may not affect knuckleballers but seems to be prevalent thinking on all other pitchers inc. relievers. This is why I think the modern game (sometime around 1980) has to factor into the game the chance of increased injury and diminished effectiveness. I am almost positive that the settings don't affect the pitchers as much as they should Some online leagues just install the correct settings and then allow teams to have whatever amount of pitchers they want to carry. A 4man staff of good sp's is really tough to beat and easier to put together than 5 good sp's. OOtp prides itself on realism and with good reason. I just think this is an area that has to be looked at. If I am warned that overuse is built into the game and will result in affecting my sp's adversely I will stick with the recommended usage but I don't think that is the case in this area

07-07-2013, 07:00 PM	#9
pstrickert Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 15,741	I created a bug report for this issue. Hopefully, Markus will weigh in.

07-07-2013, 08:19 PM	#12
waltwa All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 902	I don't know if it is a bug or not but I do know that it does not give u an option to reflect how "real" modern baseball is played and that is what I would like to see. In my league which is a great league I don't think the Comm or the bulk of /gms see it as a problem but I am in a lot of leagues and I would like to see it fixed if possible. What is the case in ootp if u play a league in the 1940's u don't have much use for real relievers but the 1940 game is not the 2000+ game and that is what I want to see reflected in the game. From what I have seen I don't think settings answer the problem. Obviously u can pass a rule to have 5 man staffs but if in fact a 4 man staff is better in 2013 than it seems like a weird rule. I would rather see a realistic game that says Beware if u overuse your pitchers. It may and probably will ruin their careers.

07-07-2013, 10:39 PM	#14
waltwa All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 902	Here I some info on the league. I have been in the league for about 35 seasons and my general impression has been a little more offense than u would see in mlb over the past 3 seasons. Ba MLB-2012 .254 CDL - .261 ERA MLB-2012 3.95 CDL- 4.25 DP MLB- seems to be greater CDL= 1500 app Hrs MLB- 2012 4000 app CDL- 4500 app Some of the settings such as babip I have no access to. I am curious tho- what should it be set to. As far as starts go it is normal for a 5 man rotation and for a 4 man rotation app 40 per sp. Isn't the bottom line tho that regardless of stats sp that pitch too much should have more injuries and reduced effectiveness. The best team in cdl are the Red Sox with a 4man staff and an era of 3.31 which is 2nd best in the AL but the SP era is 3.47 which is the best in the AL. not all teams that use a 4man staff are successful. Now suppose all the modifiers were set to what a league should be in 2013 how would that impact the fact that sp can pitch 40 starts and up to 300 innings and not suffer any adverse reactions. the top sp on their staff is 34 and has pitched 12 seasons and exceeded 250 innings 9 times and has an era of 2.85. acc to bill james this guy would be in a casket or at least his arm would. See I don't see this as a setting problem but more as a games drawback. now in my solo league I have all teams set to 5 man rotations so there is no problem. but in a modern online league some leagues have rules on staff size and some don't. If a 4man staff can be effective in OOTP modern then of course a gm would use that. my feeling tho is that it should not be effective except maybe for a short haul. But I would be interested into what u think the exact settings should be that would make a 4man staff ineffective in modern baseball.

07-08-2013, 03:14 AM	#16
VanillaGorilla All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 1,371 Blog Entries: 2	Your pitchers will get injured if you overuse them. Pull a bonehead move like having only two pitchers in your rotation and start highest rested and sim for a month and see if you don't get at least one CEI out of the deal....that wasn't a fun day. What is the injury setting for the league? There is cumulative fatigue/wear and tear that takes place, but I assume that that works with, and not separate from, the overall injury setting. If you have the injuries set below "High" then you are playing in an environment where the injury rate is below that of today's MLB, and the injuries that occur from over use are similarly reduced by the overall injury setting. The OP is asking about injuries. It would be good to have the league injury setting provided for the discussion.

07-08-2013, 04:38 AM	#17
Markus Heinsohn Developer OOTP Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Germany Posts: 24,739	Actually, modern research suggests that a 4-man rotation would indeed work if pitchers throw a bit less pitches per game and you throw in a spot starter every once in a while. In OOTP pitchers starting with 3 days rest (on the "Low" setting for pitcher endurance) do get a penalty for performance and increased injury risk, but if you have a staff of 4 workhorses (high stamina rating) you may get away with it with some luck. I personally wouldn'T do it, though. __________________ Buy Out of the Park Baseball 25 now! Download OOTP Go 25 for iOS Download OOTP Go 25 for Android

07-08-2013, 11:25 AM	#18
waltwa All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 902	What I checked is the recovery rate and I think it is too high for a modern league. My point is that the game should be structured so that regardless of the rules in an online modern league, teams should not be tempted to use 4 man staffs. I am not quite sure what the rec rate for a sp is but I don't think it is as follows day pitched Assuming the sp reaches close to pitch total- 0 1st day rec 20% 2nd 40% 3rd 60% 4th 80% 5th 100% It seems to me what I am seeing is a 90% rec rate on day 4 and that is close enough too allow the sp to pitch. But even if a team decides to pitch a sp on 90% rest the game if the settings are based on a 5man rotation everything should be done to penalize the team by increasing the injury factor or long term effectiveness of the sp and it is known in the general rules of the game so that teams (like real MLB) will simply not try 4 man rotations. The only exception will be if teams drop the pitch counts down to a low # like the rockies did in 2012 Matt Cain and Bumgarner are workhorses but they are also 20 mil $ pitchers. the sf giants are hurting for a 5th sp but they are not in the slightest tempted to start either guy with 3 days of rest. I think it is ok to tamper with certain rules of the game such as salary caps, fa comps etc but with player factors the game should try and stay as close as possible to the real game.

07-08-2013, 01:34 PM	#20
waltwa All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 902	Why do u insist on making this personal. What do u mean it doesn't seem right to me? Is there a team in the last 10 years in MLB that has gone with a 4 man rotation unless like the Rockies they drop the pitch count to around 75. I am referring to the way the game is actually played in real life. I have no problem if anyone wants to utilize settings that allow 4 man rotations or any kind of rotation. But what I would like to see if that a player or an online league sets up the settings or rules on a 5 man rotation that the game is structured to penalize any team that would go against the settings of the game. We have all kinds of options in the game salary cap or not draft pick trading or not and so on down the line. that is fine with me. In IN fact altho I have never played it this way I think its possible to play w/o players getting tired- I don't care. Play the game any way u want! All I am asking for is an option that will set up the modern game in terms of sp usage the way the modern game is actually played. If u don't play it that way then penalties will ensue. Now if there is a way to do that then let me know what the settings are Please do not give me this "what is right for me" I want to see a league starting in 2013 (e.g.) where the setting is set to a 5 man sp staff. Then if u don't stick with the 5 man staff then penalties ensue. However I see nothing wrong with an additional setting that sets up a modern league and allows staffs of any size. Again if there is a setting or group of settings that will penalize sp's for pitching high innings either by injury or loss of effectiveness (immediate or careerwise) let me know and I will give it a shot in a solo league and see how it works out. That is I will set up the rec settings and then play a 4 man staff and see how it affects the sp's. Its possible that there may be injuries or immediate loss of effectiveness but I would also want to see the strong possiblility of long term loss of effectiveness and be warned about it in the game manual and that does not exist in the game as far as I can see. I follow the sf giants and this very story has cropped up this year based on the fact that the SF sp's have missed almost no starts (based on 5 man rotation) and early in the season guys like Cain and bumgarner were being rocked and there was some fear that they may have been overworked since 2010. this is with a 5 man staff which means that the thought of a 4 man staff would either get the mgr. fired or at the very least the GM would step in and change the staff back to 5. this is not a criticism of the game which I have played since the start and have bought every edition. But every year players see things that might be helpful to making a better league and this is something I have noticed. I hope Markus gives it some thought- if not I will continue to buy and enjoy the game everyday.