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Old 06-17-2013, 03:46 PM   #21
mgom27
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Also take in to factor Postseason meaning like say on September the 28th the game between Yankees versus Mets gets Rained out but the Mets have already clinched a Playoff spot and Yankees have no chance to make it so make up not needed.
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Old 06-17-2013, 04:22 PM   #22
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I think that can be handled with a series of "if-then" statements. That's really the sticking point, knowing the conditions around when a postponed game should be slotted back into the schedule. Shouldn't be too difficult to construct a proper list of steps to follow.
I agree, that is how it would be done. The question though is how easy that is to handle in terms of how the game handles changes to the schedules and things like that. There's also the matter of how the stats database handles games that are suspended or called early.

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I'm thinking one way OOTP could open up its scheduling is by having two schedule files. One is the 'original' schedule file, this is the base one that the game uses to set up the slate of matchups for the upcoming season, and would operate just as it does now. OOTP then creates a copy of that schedule file for specific use in the current season; let's call that the 'dynamic' schedule file.

The first thing OOTP does with that dynamic file is individually adjust the starting times for each home team; that is, each home team can have its own unique typical starting time. These can be set in the team options section, and add more variety and flavour, especially for those using the RTS feature. No longer would you be restricted to whatever start times were entered into the schedule file itself. It's in the dynamic schedule file that OOTP keeps track of postponements and slots in the dates for make up games. At the end of the season, OOTP then deletes that dynamic schedule file since it's no longer needed. It takes the original schedule file, swaps around the opponents to create new matchups just like it does now, then creates a copy of that in the form of a new dynamic schedule file for the next season. Rinse and repeat for every season.

I think a system like this could work out really well, adding a lot of new potential features to the schedule side of things.
That would be quite cool, although I can imagine it would be complicated to implement. If the whole game is ever rewritten then that is something that would make a lot of sense.

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Other than being a tiny proportion of games played, there is still the matter of games potentially becoming suspended or tied if they can be interrupted by bad weather during their playing. To avoid such outcomes the game may have to "cheat" with its weather interruption such that the game isn't called off until there's a winning condition for one of the clubs.
Indeed. Of course, ideally those sort of things would be modeled too, but as you say it's probably easier said than done.
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Old 06-18-2013, 02:01 PM   #23
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That would be quite cool, although I can imagine it would be complicated to implement. If the whole game is ever rewritten then that is something that would make a lot of sense.
I don't see what's so complicated about it. It's just leveraging something the game already does but in a more systematic way allowing for more options.
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Old 06-18-2013, 03:09 PM   #24
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I don't see what's so complicated about it. It's just leveraging something the game already does but in a more systematic way allowing for more options.
Obviously it depends how the database is set up. It could be fairly simple, or it could be really complex.
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Old 06-19-2013, 08:30 PM   #25
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I would think that Rainouts & Rescheduling as optional and configurable would the way to go. Something like this:

1. Gamer could select Rainouts & Auto-Rescheduling as Yes or No option.
2. If Yes, gamer could select Stop Sim on No-Reschedule as Yes or No, in order to tell the game - during auto-sim - whether or not to stop auto-sim when it is unable to reschedule a rainout. More on that below...
3. Gamer could then select how the game would approach rescheduling rained out games, by use of percentages. For examples:

MODERN SETTINGS (as per LGO's stats from the 2011 season):
- Schedule as Day/Night Doubleheader: 48%
- Single game on Common Off Day: 30%
- Schedule as a Single Admission Doubleheader: 22%
- Do not reschedule: 0%
- Switch home team allowed*: No

EARLY 20th CENTURY SETTINGS (totally making these up; LGO could likely come up with realistic numbers):
- Schedule as Day/Night Doubleheader: 0%
- Single game on Common Off Day: 25%
- Schedule as a Single Admission Doubleheader: 55%
- Do not reschedule: 20%
- Switch home team allowed*: Yes

* Switch home team allowed would be to account for when, historically (minimal and less-than-thorough research appears to confirm) make-up games were sometimes held in the opposite city, presumably for travel/geographic/scheduling considerations/restrictions. For example, if LA is rained out in Cincy and there are no more games on the schedule between the two teams in Cincy, the game might be made up later when the teams meet in LA.

3. Then, once the internal game engine "rolls the weighted dice" (based on %'s above) to determine the type of make-up game (decides if D/N doubleheader, single admission doubleheader, off day makeup game, or no rescheduling), the game would follow logic - which wouldn't be too hard to develop, especially once LGO compiles the historical data ;-) - to analyze the remaining schedule and pick a date suitable for the makeup game. If the logic comes up empty (for example, no remaining dates between the teams, or off days, remain) and the game is unable to reschedule, then the gamer can consult the Rain Out Log to see which games were rained out and not rescheduled (and then the gamer can decide what, if anything, to do - manually - about those). The simple Rainout Log would also be useful to see which games were rained out, dates of rainout, date of reschedule game (if exists), and type of rescheduled game (off day, d/n dh, dh, not rescheduled). And if the Stop Sim option (#2 above) were set to Yes, the gamer would be able to check the log right then and there.

I think the merits of this approach are that it can be 1) comprehensively configured by the gamer to be fairly realistic, totally non-realistic, or anywhere in-between, 2) it can be used to where it is very non-intrusive, depending upon settings, and 3) for those users who couldn't care less about rainouts, it can be turned off.
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Old 06-19-2013, 08:51 PM   #26
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MODERN SETTINGS (as per LGO's stats from the 2011 season):
- Schedule as Day/Night Doubleheader: 48%
- Single game on Common Off Day: 30%
- Schedule as a Single Admission Doubleheader: 22%
- Do not reschedule: 0%
- Switch home team allowed*: No

...

[FONT=Century Gothic]3. Then, once the internal game engine "rolls the weighted dice" (based on %'s above) to determine the type of make-up game (decides if D/N doubleheader, single admission doubleheader, off day makeup game, or no rescheduling), the game would follow logic
Dude, you've got this totally backwards, LOL. The numbers above are the result of a process, not of managers' whims.
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Old 06-19-2013, 09:16 PM   #27
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Dude, you've got this totally backwards, LOL. The numbers above are the result of a process, not of managers' whims.
Not sure what you mean, but it would have nothing to do with a manager or his whims. The settings are all about the 'the process' of how the game would handle rainouts for all teams.
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Old 06-20-2013, 02:09 PM   #28
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Switch home team allowed would be to account for when, historically (minimal and less-than-thorough research appears to confirm) make-up games were sometimes held in the opposite city, presumably for travel/geographic/scheduling considerations/restrictions. For example, if LA is rained out in Cincy and there are no more games on the schedule between the two teams in Cincy, the game might be made up later when the teams meet in LA.
That actually has been standard practice since the early part of the 20th century. If the game can't be made up in the original park it's made up in the other club's park. What is rare is when, for some reason, MLB has decreed the team hosting the game will bat first rather than second.

To continue your example, the last scheduled game of LA at CIN is rained out. The game is then made up as part of the next time CIN is at LA. Normally in this case LA would be the home team and CIN the visitor (in other words CIN will have less than 81 home games played and LA more than 81). But instead, even though the game is taking place in LA in its park, CIN is treated as the home team and bats second while LA bats first. MLB has done this sort of thing a couple of times over the last few years; not sure if it's a change in policy in terms of how games played at the other team's park are made up or if it was just special circumstances.

Last edited by Le Grande Orange; 06-20-2013 at 02:11 PM.
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Old 06-20-2013, 02:23 PM   #29
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3. Then, once the internal game engine "rolls the weighted dice" (based on %'s above) to determine the type of make-up game (decides if D/N doubleheader, single admission doubleheader, off day makeup game, or no rescheduling), the game would follow logic - which wouldn't be too hard to develop, especially once LGO compiles the historical data ;-)
Well, I look at it a bit differently. To my mind the main part of the process is picking out the date to make up the game. That can be done via a series of if-then statements I think. After a suitable date is picked, if it's a date with the clubs already meeting, then it can decide whether the make up game will be part of a single admission or separate admission doubleheader based upon the time period or what have you.

Offhand I wouldn't make the process too customizable since, well, there's already a ton of it in the game and I'd rather not bury users with another level of weighty details to master. I'd probably keep the choices simple.

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The simple Rainout Log would also be useful to see which games were rained out, dates of rainout, date of reschedule game (if exists), and type of rescheduled game (off day, d/n dh, dh, not rescheduled). And if the Stop Sim option (#2 above) were set to Yes, the gamer would be able to check the log right then and there.
There probably should be a file or something which specifically tracks this, but the Scores & Schedule screen as well as the team schedule calendars should also note postponements and rescheduled games. This is what both MLB's and MILB's web sites do. The scoreboard will show what games that day were postponed; it'll list when a game is a make up game what date that game was originally postponed, and if it was originally set for the other club's park. So some sort of upgrade to the Scores & Schedules and team schedule calendar screens to show the postponement/makeup info would be a vital part of this.

Last edited by Le Grande Orange; 08-07-2013 at 01:58 PM.
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Old 08-07-2013, 02:02 PM   #30
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I'd also stay away from suspended games as well. It causes potential record-keeping issues since the game is started one day but completed on another day (and may not even be completed in the same park).
Thought I'd bump this thread as I came across an article on the official Minor League web site about some of the, shall we say interesting, effects arising from suspended games. I think what it contains shows quite clearly why OOTP should not attempt to recreate suspended games.

Here's the article: The Oddities of a Suspended Game.
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Old 08-07-2013, 02:23 PM   #31
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Thought I'd bump this thread as I came across an article on the official Minor League web site about some of the, shall we say interesting, effects arising from suspended games. I think what it contains shows quite clearly why OOTP should not attempt to recreate suspended games.

Here's the article: The Oddities of a Suspended Game.
Yeah, that sounds like it could cause all sorts of really strange database bugs if you attempted to recreate it in a game, and it would be damn near impossible to debug.
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Old 08-07-2013, 03:21 PM   #32
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Yeah, that sounds like it could cause all sorts of really strange database bugs if you attempted to recreate it in a game, and it would be damn near impossible to debug.
Which is why any postponement mechanism that occurs while a game is happening in OOTP would need to not end a game early (or in extra innings) unless that game had reached a valid conclusion first.

So if in the top of the 5th inning the dice roll comes up and the rains come down, OOTP won't actually apply that until that game reaches a legal conclusion. If the visiting team was leading 5-4 in the top of the 5th, then the home team would get to bat in the bottom of the 5th. If it fails to score a run, or scores enough to take the lead, once the inning is concluded OOTP applies the weather and the game is called at that point. If the home team tied the game in the bottom of the 5th, then the game would continue until such time as one team or the other had taken the lead after an inning, at which point OOTP would then apply the weather to end the game.

One caveat would be rain falling before a game is a legal game (4½ innings). In the majors a game called before that point is scrapped, the stats thrown out, and the game later replayed in full. In the minors, however, a game can be suspended before it is a legal game. So that would need to be taken into account. The easiest way would be for OOTP to not make any rolls on the possibility of weather ending a game early until at least 4½ innings have been played. That prevents having to have different weather scenarios for the majors and minors.*


*The whole question of the majors versus the minors is something I think OOTP needs to explore more in future versions. There is a tendency to make the minors simply echo the majors, but that isn't right. The minors are really a distinct entity, with its own particular set rules and 'flavour'. OOTP should do more to capture that. Ideas along this line will be something I'll probably be promoting for OOTP 15.
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Old 08-07-2013, 04:58 PM   #33
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Why do it half-arsed when it can be done properly from the start? We wouldn't accept the game spitting out unrealistic player statistics, so why treat other areas unrealistically? Doing it right the first time means no kludges that only have to be reworked again in later versions.

If everything could be properly done from the start, we wouldn't have any updates or patches or new versions. Just something to remember.
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Old 08-07-2013, 05:23 PM   #34
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If everything could be properly done from the start, we wouldn't have any updates or patches or new versions. Just something to remember.
To be clear, I'm not suggesting a feature has to be perfect before OOTP implements it. What I am saying is that any feature needs to be thought through carefully, in great detail, all the possible ramifications of the feature considered, then a precise roadmap drawn up clearly laying out what the ultimate form of the feature looks like and how to get from here to there in reasonable steps. A feature can then be implemented in stages over several versions, secure in the knowledge of how each stage fits into the overall plan.

My feeling is that too much of the time that doesn't happen with OOTP, and too often features are implemented on an ad hoc basis without a clear long-range plan of where that feature will end up and how to get there.
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Old 08-07-2013, 05:32 PM   #35
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To be clear, I'm not suggesting a feature has to be perfect before OOTP implements it. What I am saying is that any feature needs to be thought through carefully, in great detail, all the possible ramifications of the feature considered, then a precise roadmap drawn up clearly laying out what the ultimate form of the feature looks like and how to get from here to there in reasonable steps. A feature can then be implemented in stages over several versions, secure in the knowledge of how each stage fits into the overall plan.

My feeling is that too much of the time that doesn't happen with OOTP, and too often features are implemented on an ad hoc basis without a clear long-range plan of where that feature will end up and how to get there.
Fair point.
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Old 08-23-2013, 09:02 PM   #36
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Something that seems to have been forgotten here when it comes to realism and how OOTP could handle this realistically is team travel. A team that has to travel after a series without a off day granted to them is not going to want to make up a game as part of any doubleheader on the last day of the series.

For example. The pirates are playing a 3 game series with the Cubs in Pittsburg. Game 2 of the series is rained out. The Pirates Start a series in San Fransisco the day after game 3 of their series with the Cubs. The Pirates won't want a double header with the Cubs on that day and then have to travel to SF overnight.. Your only options then are:
-Find a future series where the Cubs are in Pittsburg.and create the DH
-if no series exists,make up the game on a mutual off day for the teams.
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Old 08-23-2013, 09:28 PM   #37
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You know, realism is a fine line. I for one love the little details that add realism. But I don't think the game has to be 100% realistic. In the end it's really just a game. That means that practical considerations such as travel time don't need to come into play if it means no rainouts, doubleheaders, and so on. Our virtual teams aren't traveling anywhere.

So if the Pirates and Cubs were rained out in the second of three games, then I would have the makeup game be the next day, in some kind of double header. It would be kind of fun to have to switch up the lineups, what with two games being played in one day and all. And yes, fatigue factors can play a role, just as they do for back-to-back games now. An older player might not play both games.
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Old 08-23-2013, 09:48 PM   #38
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That actually has been standard practice since the early part of the 20th century. If the game can't be made up in the original park it's made up in the other club's park. What is rare is when, for some reason, MLB has decreed the team hosting the game will bat first rather than second.
I think I found the answer to that bolded. It seems to date back to a rule change made prior to the 2007 season, and so far it has only come up twice.

Basically, the rule is that if a game is being made up in the other club's park, the original home club gets to bat second as if it was the home team even though it isn't. So if SF at CIN were rained out and was to be made up as CIN at SF, rather than SF batting second as the home team, it would instead bat first and CIN would bat second. Interestingly though, the game is still counted as a road game for CIN and a home game for SF. In other words, it's a situation where the home team bats first rather than second (which used to happen back in the 19th and early 20th century).

This scenario actually happened earlier this season between the Reds and Giants. A game postponed in Cincinnati was scheduled to be made up as part of a regular doubleheader in San Francisco, except that in the second game (the makeup game) the Reds were to bat second rather than the Giants. See MLB news articles about this here, here, and here.

I presume this change was made in order to make it more fair to the club losing out on a home game. While it doesn't get to play in its own park, it at least gets to bat second as if it was at home. (Note that in the minors, and prior to 2007 in the majors, the visiting club would bat first regardless.)


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For example. The pirates are playing a 3 game series with the Cubs in Pittsburg. Game 2 of the series is rained out. The Pirates Start a series in San Fransisco the day after game 3 of their series with the Cubs. The Pirates won't want a double header with the Cubs on that day and then have to travel to SF overnight.. Your only options then are:
-Find a future series where the Cubs are in Pittsburg.and create the DH
-if no series exists,make up the game on a mutual off day for the teams.
That would be factored into the "if-then" rules used to determine when games are rescheduled.

Last edited by Le Grande Orange; 08-23-2013 at 10:40 PM. Reason: Fixed dumb mistake. D'Oh!
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Old 08-23-2013, 10:09 PM   #39
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That actually has been standard practice since the early part of the 20th century. If the game can't be made up in the original park it's made up in the other club's park. What is rare is when, for some reason, MLB has decreed the team hosting the game will bat first rather than second.

To continue your example, the last scheduled game of LA at CIN is rained out. The game is then made up as part of the next time CIN is at LA. Normally in this case LA would be the home team and CIN the visitor (in other words CIN will have less than 81 home games played and LA more than 81). But instead, even though the game is taking place in LA in its park, CIN is treated as the home team and bats second while LA bats first. MLB has done this sort of thing a couple of times over the last few years; not sure if it's a change in policy in terms of how games played at the other team's park are made up or if it was just special circumstances.
I believe CIN was the home team in SF a few weeks ago.
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Old 08-23-2013, 10:44 PM   #40
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I believe CIN was the home team in SF a few weeks ago.
See my (now edited) prior post. By rule the Giants were the home team even though the other rule required them to bat first in the makeup game. (The linked MLB articles concur with this.)

Retrosheet categorizes this as "HTBF" or Home Team Bats First. It used to occur with some frequency in the 19th century but then fell out of favour in the early 20th century.
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