1st Round pick release - Still a problem

Bobble · 05-02-2013, 09:40 PM

I know this has been a problem in the past with OOTP. We're aware it's still happening, right? The player is currently on waivers for the third time this year and being claimed by the craptastic Mariners. 2013 All-in-One MLB league.

wsmithd · 05-02-2013, 10:51 PM

I agree with this. Some off-seasons I can pick up two or three 4.5-5 star potential players who have been released within a year or two of drafting. I also notice my own draft picks occasionally getting released. One player I have just won the triple crown, and he was released by San Francisco after three years in their international complex then a few decent months in A ball. I think the minor league AI GMs need to weigh potential more heavily when making roster moves.

Biggio509 · 05-05-2013, 03:00 PM

This is the part of the AI I never understand. No human would ever put this guy on the 40 that soon. It looks like the AI is still doing some questionable things with players like moving guys who just got drafted all the way to the MLB or putting them on the 40 man just because they score in the top 40 and the AI wants to keep the 40 man at 40.

Ok maybe a few humans would. Ryan Scott Wagner from my Alma mater did make the big leagues the same year he was drafted ('02) but it is very rare. IIRC, the Reds were in desperate need of arms that year. Still unless the guy is going to play and make an impact in the majors no team should start the clock by putting a guy on the 40 man until he is ready for the big leagues. It is almost unheard of for a new draft pick to be on the 40 man.

elfsutton · 05-05-2013, 03:24 PM

That is one reason I never use the 40 man roster, never have those types of issues.

Lukas Berger · 05-05-2013, 03:29 PM

Are more people than just Bobbie seeing this in OOTP14?

I logged an official bug report but we'll probably need some confirmation from others that this is an issue.

Not doubting you Bobbie, in fact I believe you and am concerned enough to file the report, which doesn't happen for every little problem someone posts. Just need to know how common this is.

Bobble · 05-05-2013, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biggio509

This is the part of the AI I never understand. No human would ever put this guy on the 40 that soon. It looks like the AI is still doing some questionable things with players like moving guys who just got drafted all the way to the MLB or putting them on the 40 man just because they score in the top 40 and the AI wants to keep the 40 man at 40.

Ok maybe a few humans would. Ryan Scott Wagner from my Alma mater did make the big leagues the same year he was drafted ('02) but it is very rare. IIRC, the Reds were in desperate need of arms that year. Still unless the guy is going to play and make an impact in the majors no team should start the clock by putting a guy on the 40 man until he is ready for the big leagues. It is almost unheard of for a new draft pick to be on the 40 man.

Is it a 40-man problem, then? So, it probably can't be solved by increasing the 40-man to, say, 42-man then, eh? Crap.

SirMichaelJordan · 05-05-2013, 04:56 PM

This is why I use AI evaluation. This was the first problem I encountered when I first got the game last year and since switch to AI evaluation, I never seen this problem. I see a lot of last round draft picks getting cut after a year in the minors instead of prospects.

endgame · 05-05-2013, 05:25 PM

I can tell you now, he'll need league files. So if you have a recent occurence that can aptly demonstrate the problem- which, btw, has not appeared in testing -please send them for evaluation.

Bluenoser · 05-05-2013, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirMichaelJordan

This is why I use AI evaluation. This was the first problem I encountered when I first got the game last year and since switch to AI evaluation, I never seen this problem. I see a lot of last round draft picks getting cut after a year in the minors instead of prospects.

Everyone uses AI Evaluation, it's part of your league setup.

What do you have yours set at?

Or am I misunderstanding you, and you're saying you don't use scouting?

BusterKing · 05-05-2013, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

Everyone uses AI Evaluation, it's part of your league setup.

What do you have yours set at?

Or am I misunderstanding you, and you're saying you don't use scouting?

He means using a check mark under Global Setup > Rating Scales

Lukas Berger · 05-05-2013, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by endgame

I can tell you now, he'll need league files. So if you have a recent occurence that can aptly demonstrate the problem- which, btw, has not appeared in testing -please send them for evaluation.

Yeah, this.

SirMichaelJordan · 05-05-2013, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

Everyone uses AI Evaluation, it's part of your league setup.

What do you have yours set at?

Or am I misunderstanding you, and you're saying you don't use scouting?

As far as I know "Overall rating based on AI Evaluation, not pure rating" is not checked by default.

I have that option checked with my percentages set to 25% even.

RchW · 05-05-2013, 06:35 PM

What are the roster limits on the lowest minor leagues? That's generally been a trigger. Since I removed roster limits many versions ago the issue has never re-occurred.

Sweed · 05-05-2013, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirMichaelJordan

As far as I know "Overall rating based on AI Evaluation, not pure rating" is not checked by default.

I have that option checked with my percentages set to 25% even.

I've never had this problem and FWIW I also have this checked. I also have lowest minor roster limit at either 35 or 50. I also use ghost players and not full minor leagues.

JMDurron · 05-05-2013, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirMichaelJordan

As far as I know "Overall rating based on AI Evaluation, not pure rating" is not checked by default.

I have that option checked with my percentages set to 25% even.

I saw this problem significantly less in OOTP13 once I had checked this checkbox as well. Going from 100% ratings to 25/25/25/25 made a major difference in this behavior. The AI still adds the draft picks to the 40-man immediately, but now the AI waives fringey middle relievers instead of their draft picks on the day after the draft.

Markus Heinsohn · 05-06-2013, 05:11 AM

I often run long term tests which give me alerts when something unusual happens, for example a top prospect being released or waived. On default settings though, this has never happened to me in OOTP 14. So, something unique to your settings is likely the cause... I will need league files to have a look at it.

Trust me guys, the AI is terribly complex here and has plenty of safety checks so that it doesn't do stupid things. However, all the possible settings in OOTP result in infinite permutations which simply cannot be tested all, and every once in a while something like this indeed happens.

Le Grande Orange · 05-06-2013, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMDurron

The AI still adds the draft picks to the 40-man immediately ...

It really shouldn't be doing that since it means the draftee was given a major league contract. Few draftees in real life get such a contract.

JMDurron · 05-06-2013, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

It really shouldn't be doing that since it means the draftee was given a major league contract. Few draftees in real life get such a contract.

I agree, but there was a combination of two problems leading to the waiver behavior back in OOTP13.

1) AI adds draftees to the 40-man roster immediately
2) AI then waives draftees to make room on the 40-man roster

After checking the AI evaluation of 25/25/25/25, problem #2 resolved itself, as the AI was not discarding the draftees immediately. It was still discarding other players due to issue #1, which was still an issue.

I can't speak to how OOTP14 is behaving until I upgrade my Modern MLB league, but I always start with my historical league when upgrading versions before putting my player development/drafting-heavy league at risk.

The Wolf · 05-06-2013, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lukasberger

Are more people than just Bobbie seeing this in OOTP14?

I logged an official bug report but we'll probably need some confirmation from others that this is an issue.

Not doubting you Bobbie, in fact I believe you and am concerned enough to file the report, which doesn't happen for every little problem someone posts. Just need to know how common this is.

I saw it once, then maxed out the 40-man roster and have not seen it since.

Bobble · 05-06-2013, 08:15 PM

I uploaded my league's .dat files to ootpsupport. It's called Bobble_FirstRoundDraftPickRelease.lg.zip.

I do have "Overall rating based on AI eval, not pure ratings." checked. And my AI player evaluation options are:

0
67
22
11

Hopefully, Markus can look into improving the AI in this area and let us know what to do in the meantime to help the AI not make these choices.

05-05-2013, 03:24 PM	#4
elfsutton All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Cadiz, Ohio Posts: 946	That is one reason I never use the 40 man roster, never have those types of issues. __________________ Pittsburgh Pirates, Cleveland Indians fan Rewriting Cubs History, a Dynasty Report Baseball History, What Might Have Been Rewriting Cubs History Poll

05-05-2013, 04:56 PM	#7
SirMichaelJordan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 2,629	1st Round pick release - Still a problem This is why I use AI evaluation. This was the first problem I encountered when I first got the game last year and since switch to AI evaluation, I never seen this problem. I see a lot of last round draft picks getting cut after a year in the minors instead of prospects.

05-05-2013, 05:25 PM	#8
endgame Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 16,843	I can tell you now, he'll need league files. So if you have a recent occurence that can aptly demonstrate the problem- which, btw, has not appeared in testing -please send them for evaluation. __________________ "Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett _____________________________________________

05-05-2013, 06:35 PM	#13
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: The big smoke Posts: 15,628	What are the roster limits on the lowest minor leagues? That's generally been a trigger. Since I removed roster limits many versions ago the issue has never re-occurred. __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

05-06-2013, 05:11 AM	#16
Markus Heinsohn Developer OOTP Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Germany Posts: 24,739	I often run long term tests which give me alerts when something unusual happens, for example a top prospect being released or waived. On default settings though, this has never happened to me in OOTP 14. So, something unique to your settings is likely the cause... I will need league files to have a look at it. Trust me guys, the AI is terribly complex here and has plenty of safety checks so that it doesn't do stupid things. However, all the possible settings in OOTP result in infinite permutations which simply cannot be tested all, and every once in a while something like this indeed happens. __________________ Buy Out of the Park Baseball 25 now! Download OOTP Go 25 for iOS Download OOTP Go 25 for Android

05-02-2013, 09:40 PM	#1
Bobble Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: High and outside Posts: 3,814	1st Round pick release - Still a problem I know this has been a problem in the past with OOTP. We're aware it's still happening, right? The player is currently on waivers for the third time this year and being claimed by the craptastic Mariners. 2013 All-in-One MLB league. Attached Images __________________

05-02-2013, 10:51 PM	#2
wsmithd Bat Boy Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 5	I agree with this. Some off-seasons I can pick up two or three 4.5-5 star potential players who have been released within a year or two of drafting. I also notice my own draft picks occasionally getting released. One player I have just won the triple crown, and he was released by San Francisco after three years in their international complex then a few decent months in A ball. I think the minor league AI GMs need to weigh potential more heavily when making roster moves. Last edited by wsmithd; 05-02-2013 at 10:54 PM.

05-05-2013, 03:00 PM	#3
Biggio509 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 2,027	This is the part of the AI I never understand. No human would ever put this guy on the 40 that soon. It looks like the AI is still doing some questionable things with players like moving guys who just got drafted all the way to the MLB or putting them on the 40 man just because they score in the top 40 and the AI wants to keep the 40 man at 40. Ok maybe a few humans would. Ryan Scott Wagner from my Alma mater did make the big leagues the same year he was drafted ('02) but it is very rare. IIRC, the Reds were in desperate need of arms that year. Still unless the guy is going to play and make an impact in the majors no team should start the clock by putting a guy on the 40 man until he is ready for the big leagues. It is almost unheard of for a new draft pick to be on the 40 man.

05-05-2013, 03:29 PM	#5
Lukas Berger OOTP Developments Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Nice, Côte d'Azur, France Posts: 19,901	Are more people than just Bobbie seeing this in OOTP14? I logged an official bug report but we'll probably need some confirmation from others that this is an issue. Not doubting you Bobbie, in fact I believe you and am concerned enough to file the report, which doesn't happen for every little problem someone posts. Just need to know how common this is.

05-06-2013, 08:15 PM	#20
Bobble Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: High and outside Posts: 3,814	I uploaded my league's .dat files to ootpsupport. It's called Bobble_FirstRoundDraftPickRelease.lg.zip. I do have "Overall rating based on AI eval, not pure ratings." checked. And my AI player evaluation options are: 0 67 22 11 Hopefully, Markus can look into improving the AI in this area and let us know what to do in the meantime to help the AI not make these choices. __________________