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Old 09-27-2019, 02:46 PM   #1
ForeverRoyalKC
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Joe Madden and the Cubs

I dont know...maybe I am out of touch and not as deep into the game as many of you, but does the imminent firing of Joe Madden seem fair? I still believe he is a good manager. And this horse manure about the players don't seem motivated is just what I said...horse manure. I'm sorry, but from your pee wee little leagues thru high school, college, minors and pros, isn't it within you to be motivated?! Shouldn't you want to win and grind and hustle to wear a ring and be called champion?! I never liked the lack of motivation being on a manager or coach. You, as a player, should have the motivation despite whatever is going on.
Now, a situation like the Miami Dolphins might make a player want to give up because it seems the organization is giving up. But shouldn't you still come out firing to be the best player?

Is this too old school thinking??
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Old 09-27-2019, 03:28 PM   #2
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I feel ya. Some people just weren't raised the same way. My folks taught me to work hard because I repped my faith, my family and myself. So even when I was treated unfairly @ work &/or underpaid I still gave the effort. But others aren't built the same way. Being part of something bigger than just them doesn't click for them.

But I also think Madden is being made the scapegoat unfairly. Saying lack of motivation is trying to grasp at some kind of credible reason for dismissing him. It's probably clashes with the front office and someone from the execs box is manipulating the press to justify their choice when it comes.

What is probably the Cubs problem is that they were tagged as the next dynasty. Winning was supposed to come easy w/experience and age. And with the Cubs history, finally winning the WS was subconsciously viewed as the final, but not the next, accomplishment. Sometimes things need to be shaken up on the roster. That gets rids of complacency and inserts urgency if done properly. I think if Chicago had the same attitude as the Astros, a willingness to take bold risks, they would have that extra spark that champions need to get through a long grind of a regular season.
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Old 09-27-2019, 03:29 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by ForeverRoyalKC View Post
Is this too old school thinking??
Yes

More and more strategies and tactics are coming from the front offices. That means more and more managers' focus is on managing the players' personalities (for lack of a better word).

Baseball players are humans like the rest of us. That means, like the rest of us, they don't always give 100% at work - just look how many people post here during their work day. They, the players, have stuff going on outside of baseball that effects how they perform, just like the rest of us.


Note: I have no idea how well Madden, or any other manager, really is able to do that.
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Old 09-27-2019, 04:23 PM   #4
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I dont know...maybe I am out of touch and not as deep into the game as many of you, but does the imminent firing of Joe Madden seem fair?
Maddon had a young, WS champion team and the owners expected him to deliver a dynasty.

He did not do that.

Gotta blame somebody.
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Old 09-27-2019, 06:30 PM   #5
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Yeah, but if the players don't have the gas to become a dynasty and we're talking about this motivational bull, the dynasty lays on the players too.

If I were an owner, I would go to the players one on one and ask them "Why were you not motivated? Why don't you want to lay out and become a champion and build a dynasty?"
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Old 09-27-2019, 07:22 PM   #6
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Yeah, but if the players don't have the gas to become a dynasty and we're talking about this motivational bull, the dynasty lays on the players too.

If I were an owner, I would go to the players one on one and ask them "Why were you not motivated? Why don't you want to lay out and become a champion and build a dynasty?"
The whole motivation excuse is hogwash.
How do you determine a player was not motivated unless he is not showing up to practice or something like that?
Maybe the other teams were better.
Maybe the owner wasn't motivated to get better players.

Do you really think the majority of players were thinking i don't need a championship and all the rewards and recognition that comes with it?
I'll just take it easy cause i got my pay. Sure there may be a few bad apples and i will blame the players for not studying, paying attention and making mistakes but i don't know if i can feel comfortable saying the players weren't motivated to win. Just because a team loses doesn't mean the players don't wanna win.
I guess maybe when a team is terrible but even then there are teams they wanna beat and stats they wanna get. I just can't see it in a team in the run for the playoffs.
If a player can't get motivated for the playoffs he is in the wrong occupation.
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Old 09-27-2019, 07:31 PM   #7
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The whole motivation excuse is hogwash.
How do you determine a player was not motivated unless he is not showing up to practice or something like that?
Maybe the other teams were better.
Maybe the owner wasn't motivated to get better players.

Do you really think the majority of players were thinking i don't need a championship and all the rewards and recognition that comes with it?
I'll just take it easy cause i got my pay. Sure there may be a few bad apples and i will blame the players for not studying, paying attention and making mistakes but i don't know if i can feel comfortable saying the players weren't motivated to win. Just because a team loses doesn't mean the players don't wanna win.
I guess maybe when a team is terrible but even then there are teams they wanna beat and stats they wanna get. I just can't see it in a team in the run for the playoffs.
If a player can't get motivated for the playoffs he is in the wrong occupation.
But, maybe the Cubs were over motivated and it caused them to press and try too hard....yeah that's it, I could tell by the way they walked to the plate and the way they ran the bases.
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Old 09-27-2019, 07:32 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Leo_The_Lip View Post
Maddon had a young, WS champion team and the owners expected him to deliver a dynasty.

He did not do that.

Gotta blame somebody.
Blame Theo, it's his lack of creativity that led to Maddon being forced to use Schwarber & Rizzo at leadoff. Almora & Happ both struggled. Pen was atrocious most of the season. Maddon does do some odd moves but that seems to be more a product of the era vs the team they have.
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Old 09-27-2019, 08:15 PM   #9
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Yeah, but if the players don't have the gas to become a dynasty and we're talking about this motivational bull, the dynasty lays on the players too.

If I were an owner, I would go to the players one on one and ask them "Why were you not motivated? Why don't you want to lay out and become a champion and build a dynasty?"
If I were a player I'd respond, "why were you not motivated? With a few millions, or tens of millions, more of your billions, we could have had a better bullpen
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Old 09-27-2019, 08:29 PM   #10
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All good points! So wouldn't this collapse be the fault of the entire organization? From Theo down to the players?
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Old 09-27-2019, 08:43 PM   #11
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All good points! So wouldn't this collapse be the fault of the entire organization? From Theo down to the players?
Things don't always need to be someone's "fault".

But, yes, the organization should look from top to bottom trying to find out where they can improve. And, presumably, where the team wasn't as strong as they thought it was
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Old 09-27-2019, 08:45 PM   #12
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All good points! So wouldn't this collapse be the fault of the entire organization? From Theo down to the players?
Probably. But the boss doesn't fire himself. My favorite personal saying is "No one claims they are perfect, but even fewer admit their mistakes". It's always someone else or some other justification.
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Old 09-27-2019, 09:52 PM   #13
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I just hope it's another 108 years before they win again.
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Old 09-28-2019, 11:38 AM   #14
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I just think other teams got better than them. They looked like a dynasty at one point but then teams like the Dodgers kept pace, the Astros certainly past them, as well as the Red Sox and Yankees. I feel those teams have a better nucleus. I just never felt like the Cubs stars went to that next level. The other teams I mentioned have stars that are more imposing to me, and not to mention some of the Cubs starters.

Also Kimbrel was dreadful. I don't know how they would have predicted that. I think they choked at the end.
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Old 09-29-2019, 11:05 AM   #15
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I'll always believe that the Indians dumped the 2016 World Series.That one was about as honest as 1919.
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Old 09-29-2019, 02:07 PM   #16
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He gone.
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Old 09-30-2019, 06:12 PM   #17
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Letting Maddon go is a lot about MORE MONEY to keep the players . This is a situation many teams face and is why they try to bring no more than 2 young players up any year ---- THE CLOCK STARTS. Biaz, Bryant, Rizzo, Russell , and others are due a long term contract or arbitration.

The Royals faced this just a couple of years ago. I would watch player movement during off season unless they are able to get some friendly contracts...... Which ones are worth 20 to 30 million a year over 5 or 6 years ? And what about pitching ?
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Old 09-30-2019, 07:16 PM   #18
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For all accounts Maddon deserved to keep his job. He did what no manager had done in over 100 years. It is obviously more about personality conflicts than talent.
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Old 09-30-2019, 08:40 PM   #19
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Maddon had a big contract 5yr@5 million per. Exactly counter to the the new dogma that suggests managers are little more than caretakers and are paid accordingly. It's likely that Maddon had more contractual control over lineups and pitching strategy than many others since the change in on-field control had not yet occurred.
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