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Old 02-07-2020, 12:35 AM   #21
CBeisbol
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Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr View Post
I don't think it is a bad thing in this instance. There has to be a rule of when a player is eligible for FA. Is it going to be 5 months, 5 weeks, 5 years?Whenever it is, the rule is going to be the rule. That's not exploiting the player. That is exploiting the rule that is the same for everybody. A prosecutor is not exploiting a defendant if he tries him as an adult if he is 18 yrs and one day, but not if he is 17 & 364 days. The line is the line.
The big difference, of course, is that the prosecutor isn't deciding how many years before the defendant commits the crime they are going to pop out of the womb.

I read a suggestion somewhere that made some sense.

When a player signs their first free agent contract the original team has to pay a percentage of the first year to the player as a bonus.

For example, if a team calls a player up 22 days into the season, they will earn 150 service days. Assuming they stay up the rest of the time, they'll be a free agent with 6 years and 150 days. If they sign a $10,000,000 contact, the original team would have to pay an additional (150/172 * 10,000,000) 8.7 million to the player.

This would inventivize teams to call players up to begin the season
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Old 02-07-2020, 12:39 AM   #22
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No, far from it. I would never get rid of FA. The salary cap wasn't instituted to restrict players from shopping their talents. It is to keep the richer franchises from outbidding the rest of the league & "stealing" all the talent.
No
It is to limit the amount spent on player salaries and keep more money in the pockets of the billionaire owners.

Just like draft slots
Just like international caps
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Old 02-07-2020, 12:46 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr View Post
I don't think it is a bad thing in this instance. There has to be a rule of when a player is eligible for FA. Is it going to be 5 months, 5 weeks, 5 years?Whenever it is, the rule is going to be the rule. That's not exploiting the player. That is exploiting the rule that is the same for everybody. A prosecutor is not exploiting a defendant if he tries him as an adult if he is 18 yrs and one day, but not if he is 17 & 364 days. The line is the line.
You argue both that exploitation is OK in this situation and that its not exploitation. Actually its exploitation and its not ever OK.
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Old 02-07-2020, 12:53 AM   #24
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No, far from it. I would never get rid of FA. The salary cap wasn't instituted to restrict players from shopping their talents. It is to keep the richer franchises from outbidding the rest of the league & "stealing" all the talent.
WIthout a salary cap the teams don't steal talent as you allege. They pay full market value of the talent.

The stealing occurs WITH a salary cap. The cap artificially lowers the amount of money available to pay talent and so money is stolen from the players.
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Old 02-07-2020, 12:56 AM   #25
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You've identified a big problem with your plan. Reducing the effects of the cap makes the big money teams stronger.
No, I didn't. It will be the same situation for everyone.
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Old 02-07-2020, 12:57 AM   #26
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WIthout a salary cap the teams don't steal talent as you allege. They pay full market value of the talent.

The stealing occurs WITH a salary cap. The cap artificially lowers the amount of money available to pay talent and so money is stolen from the players.
Yep
It's such an uninformed, or dishonest, argument.

The owners decided they would punish other owners for spending money on player salaries after they reach free agency. This is after restricting the amount paid to players *before* they reach free agency.
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Old 02-07-2020, 12:58 AM   #27
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What I'm proposing doesn't mean the end of FA. The salary cap can still be there to keep the Steinbrenners from buying titles and dominating the FA landscape.
How's that incentive to create competitive leagues working out for you?
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Old 02-07-2020, 01:00 AM   #28
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No, I didn't. It will be the same situation for everyone.
Everyone is free to marry someone of the opposite sex. How can it be discriminatory?
It's the same rule for everyone!
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Old 02-07-2020, 01:04 AM   #29
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Yep
It's such an uninformed, or dishonest, argument.

The owners decided they would punish other owners for spending money on player salaries after they reach free agency. This is after restricting the amount paid to players *before* they reach free agency.
The owners got these concession from the players association by pleading poverty. And the association had its eyes glued so hard to FA it bought it.

Teams claimed they had a lot of money tied up in a player once he reached the majors and deserved to recoup that before FA. How long to recover that amount getting to pay $5 million players minimum salary for three years and then underpay them by millions during arbitration? There's the original bonus and but then they have an exemption that they don't have to pay minors even minimum wage. Looks like a fast recovery to me.

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Old 02-07-2020, 01:06 AM   #30
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You argue both that exploitation is OK in this situation and that its not exploitation.
No, I didn't. Once more, I said it is exploiting (definition) the situation, the rule, not the player. Please don't turn this into the Immaculate Reception thing all over again. I don't like engaging in convos in forums where my words and thoughts are purposely distorted though they are clearly on the screen for all to read and understand. If we can't discuss this maturely w/o resorting to such unnecessary tactics just let me know so I can put you on ignore.

Quote:
Actually its exploitation
I agree

Quote:
and its not ever OK.
I disagree, but leave you to your opinion.
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Old 02-07-2020, 01:10 AM   #31
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No, I didn't. It will be the same situation for everyone.
A big spending team gets its cap raised and can spend more. A small money team isn't near the cap and having salary exempted from the cap doesn't affect it at all.

What silliness is next? Are you going to argue that giving the big money teams a break on luxury tax will trickle down to the little money teams, create jobs in the minor leagues, and make baseball great again?
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Old 02-07-2020, 01:11 AM   #32
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No, I didn't. Once more, I said it is exploiting (definition) the situation, the rule, not the player.
Apparently Cobra Mgr doesn't know that the team decides when the player starts accruing service time.

Their words and thoughts are clearly on the screen for everyone to read and understand

The Cubs will just be playing by the rules when Bryant falls just short of free agency. What are you gonna do?

Last edited by CBeisbol; 02-07-2020 at 01:25 AM.
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Old 02-07-2020, 01:13 AM   #33
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just let me know so I can put you on ignore.
Cobra Mgr seems to ignore everything they could possibly learn from. Which explains a lot
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Old 02-07-2020, 01:30 AM   #34
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Cobra, what did I twist. You've again denied players are being exploited (I don't know how paying them less than they're worth can be anything else) then followed up by saying exploitation is OK.

We're talking people here and the second definition you linked refers to people and uses the word "unfair".

You say its clear I'm twisting your words but if both are true (I'm twisting and its clear) then any harm from that falls on me.

Yea, start hitting the ignore button on anyone who challenges you with, oh, facts that you don't like. Soon you will be viewing a blank board.
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Old 02-07-2020, 01:39 AM   #35
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The guys who get ripped the most are those who have great 3 year careers. They never get paid for what they did.
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Old 02-07-2020, 02:10 AM   #36
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I don't see this as a problem either. Exploit may have a negative connotation, but there is nothing wrong with it in every case.
There is when you're the one being exploited
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Old 02-07-2020, 02:40 AM   #37
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There is when you're the one being exploited
Yea, I'm sure he'd object to personally being exploited. But reality is exploitation and oppression don't end when the exploited and oppressed stand up for themselves. They need others who aren't directly affected to stand up with them so they constitute a majority. They need the people who in the past said some exploitation and oppression was OK to decide none is OK to join them.
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Old 02-07-2020, 05:57 AM   #38
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Count me among those who think the draft should be abolished. What you do after that, I don't really care, but the older I get the more wrong the draft seems. Just imagine having to work for the same employer for x years no matter how ****ty they might be to you or others. Yeah, sometimes you might sign a contract with an employer for who knows how many years, but at least you most likely chose them. Barring the rare case like Lindros or Manning, players don't get to choose who they sign with right out of school and most don't get to choose whom they want to play for until years later. That's just not right. And unions should do something about it.

Now if you want to have a cap on signing players who have already signed their first pro contract, sure, that sounds reasonable (it's like the first time home buyer's tax break), but players should always get to choose whom they want to sign with. And just think, it would create a great incentive for team's to want to improve their organization because why would any good to great prospect want to sign with an organization with a bad rep. Those organizations would only be able to sign the players no other teams wanted and that would lead you into an even worse position. You would have to cap the number of signees (or the amount of money spent on signees) so not everyone can sign with the best teams, but it could definitely work.
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Old 02-07-2020, 07:50 AM   #39
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Cobra, what did I twist. You've again denied players are being exploited (I don't know how paying them less than they're worth can be anything else) then followed up by saying exploitation is OK.

We're talking people here and the second definition you linked refers to people and uses the word "unfair".

You say its clear I'm twisting your words but if both are true (I'm twisting and its clear) then any harm from that falls on me.

Yea, start hitting the ignore button on anyone who challenges you with, oh, facts that you don't like. Soon you will be viewing a blank board.
Have a nice life.
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Old 02-07-2020, 08:02 AM   #40
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There is when you're the one being exploited
If you're the one, yeah, you feel it is wrong. But that would be your opinion, your point of view. In the eyes of the opposite party, they are exploiting, taking full advantage, of the rule. Slaves are exploited. Migrant workers in Qatar are exploited. Victims of child abuse are exploited. That is bad.

Baseball players who have to wait an "extra" year to become FA's because their parent team delayed calling them up aren't exploited. Their team exploited, took full advantage, the rule. RB's who can't get a long term deal because of the franchise tag rule aren't being exploited. The teams are exploiting, taking full advantage, of the rule.
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