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Old 12-26-2019, 03:43 PM   #921
rudel.dietrich
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Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr View Post
I understand. I'm like you in that regard in just about everything else. Think outside the box. That's where genius makes it's appearance.

QB is just a unique position. Individual QB's get too much credit when they are good. But the position in itself is important. Great QB's are a luxury. Average QB play is a minimal requirement. But a bad QB cripples the entire franchise. That's why I called out the timing of Andrew Luck's retirement. You must have certainty at that position or everything else you do is virtually pointless.
If Jacoby had not gotten injured I think they could of made the playoffs and maybe made some noise.
I bet their over before the season and they may still barely hit it.
Jacoby was looking like a top 1/3 of the league QB up until week 9
I think he has a much more serious knee injury then the Colts are letting on.
I don't get why the NFL allows teams to not be transparent about injuries to it's players.

If he had not injured his knee I think they could have been a 9 or 10 win team in my semi educated opinion. They have a lot of talent on the team and should run it back next year using the draft to shore up some holes.
I think Brissett can be a starting level QB.
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Old 12-26-2019, 04:23 PM   #922
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I don't get why the NFL allows teams to not be transparent about injuries to it's players.

If he had not injured his knee I think they could have been a 9 or 10 win team in my semi educated opinion. They have a lot of talent on the team and should run it back next year using the draft to shore up some holes.
I think Brissett can be a starting level QB.
Not sure about Brissett given the NFL has a year of film to evaluate . But he can be solid when Healthy.

Each system has a QB type that fits and if you have a square peg for a round hole -- you can get by but never be your best .

If the QB is available that they want pick him --- there are other needs and there can always be a talk with Luck ...?

** Injuries are not disclosed because other teams will target .... but you do scout.
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Old 12-26-2019, 04:28 PM   #923
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If Jacoby had not gotten injured I think they could of made the playoffs and maybe made some noise.
I bet their over before the season and they may still barely hit it.
Jacoby was looking like a top 1/3 of the league QB up until week 9
I think he has a much more serious knee injury then the Colts are letting on.
I don't get why the NFL allows teams to not be transparent about injuries to it's players.

If he had not injured his knee I think they could have been a 9 or 10 win team in my semi educated opinion. They have a lot of talent on the team and should run it back next year using the draft to shore up some holes.
I think Brissett can be a starting level QB.
Maybe. But it still puts a franchise in scramble mode when the assumed starter isn't available. Everything changes. Even if the QB is good. Everyone has to adjust. Having a capable backup is valuable. But having 2 "starters" is problematic.

And teams are required to be transparent about injuries. They are fined when the injury reports aren't accurate. Teams just do what they want anyway.
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Old 12-27-2019, 09:56 AM   #924
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Boy I missed a fun convo over these past couple days. I'm gonna address a few random points within this as I go.

For one, half the QBs in the league are not ****. The league arguably has at least 20, and possibly around 25 viable starting QBs right now. Between the rules and the way teams scheme things up, it's easier to be a QB in today's NFL than ever before. The issue is that of those ~25 players that can be viable starters, 15-20 of them aren't elite and are thus incredibly team/scheme dependent.

A big reason teams don't try to develop two QBs at the same time is rules regarding practice reps. There is little time that a backup QB gets to practice and time for any QBs beyond that usually goes to the scout team, where they're trying to prep the defense by emulating the opposing QB. Also in the case of my Jets not picking another QB around Darnold, they have a bottom 5 roster in the NFL and couldn't afford to use another pick on a QB. Based on what he's showed this season and the fact there's a new regime in the front office, I could see the team using a mid/late round pick on a QB.

Jacoby Brissett is among those 25 QBs that can be a viable starting QB, although imo he's towards the bottom of it. PFF says he holds the ball too long and is almost conservative to a fault. Alex Smith only works for a truly dangerous team when he plays like he did in 2017, uncorking the deep ball every now and again. I think the Colts would be well served to pursue a QB upgrade, although with where they are it might be tough.

I personally don't think Tua would have been the first overall pick in the end even with his injury. He doesn't have elite arm strength and the Bengals strike me as an organization that still evaluates QBs like teams have forever rather than taking to more modern thinking that football is about intermediate passes over the middle now. Plus even before his hip he had concerningly consistent injury issues.

Lastly, I wanted to give my take on QBs from the elite schools. I agree with Cobra that they're a tough eval and often get overrated. Their situation is often good enough to give them massive numbers and paper over rudimentary flaws in their game (see Dwayne Haskins last year). Because of that, you get less opportunities to see how they handle certain situations, like when the defense takes them off their spot or when they have to function outside of the gameplan. Tua can definitely be good but it's hard to know how a guy can function when he's not on one of the very most talented teams in his league when that's all you've seen of him.
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Old 12-27-2019, 01:15 PM   #925
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Hey...I was just pondering....do you think that when Jason Garrett gets fired, his job will still be safe?!

Sorry. Couldn't resist.
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Old 12-27-2019, 01:59 PM   #926
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I don't get it. Is Antonio Brown really that good?
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Old 12-27-2019, 02:54 PM   #927
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Weird. It's not like he's going to be able to play this year. Guy isn't worth the hassle, either.
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Old 12-27-2019, 03:30 PM   #928
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1) If it pushes a team over the top for a Super Bowl win, more likely than not they'll take it.

2) At this moment in time he is an innocent man whose only crime is being a jerk in training camp.
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Old 12-27-2019, 03:38 PM   #929
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ps As far as New Orleans are concerned we are hardly talking choir boys, certain there coach as served more suspension time than Brown.
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Old 12-27-2019, 04:43 PM   #930
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2) At this moment in time he is an innocent man whose only crime is being a jerk in training camp.
This is my point. And you forgot being so disruptive in practice that the Steelers decided to play w/o him in a game for the playoffs. Forget about the off the field stuff. The behavior "on the clock" should be enough to say "no thank you". His talent may put you over the top for the SB, but his behavior will put you & your entire staff in the unemployment line. He can't be worth that risk.
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Old 12-27-2019, 05:08 PM   #931
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I wouldn't want that locker room cancer anywhere near my team.
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Old 12-27-2019, 07:37 PM   #932
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Maybe I would be fired after just two seasons . But I would like a chance to try.
I always like trying new things in sports when it comes to the management aspect.
I think my idea is a market inefficiency.
Actually Tom Landry tried to use the duel quarterback method between Staubach and Morton. It didn't work out that well. Needless to say, Landry lasted a few more than two years
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Old 12-27-2019, 07:51 PM   #933
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At this point in his career, probably not. He's also probably not worth the trouble. But what the Saints might try to do is pile on the talent. Another impact player on top of being a top two team in the NFC. Think of it like a baseball team with one of the best records trading for an ace pitcher before the deadline.
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Old 12-27-2019, 09:04 PM   #934
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At this point in his career, probably not. He's also probably not worth the trouble. But what the Saints might try to do is pile on the talent. Another impact player on top of being a top two team in the NFC. Think of it like a baseball team with one of the best records trading for an ace pitcher before the deadline.
....who will sulk in the bullpen because he isn't allowed to bring his support wolverine to the mound, tweet during the game his catcher sucks @ calling pitches and demand a raise in between innings.
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Old 12-27-2019, 09:14 PM   #935
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RE: Swapping QBs every other drive

Most people's experience with QB is in flag football games &/or Madden games, where you're throwing it to whoever is open without any timing needing, where timing isn't even something that gets thought about

In a majority of NFL passes, the ball is on the way before the receiver is looking. That requires timing and experience between the QB & Receivers. As has been said, it's rare for good QBs to not hold meetings and camps with their receiving corps in the off-season. It's something that is worked on constantly. There are special exceptions on both ends of course, but those types of QBs aren't ones you'd want to be pulling out every other drive anyway

Also, there are a decent number of occurrences where teams have drafted multiple QBs in the same draft or a QB in successive drafts ,,,, unless you meant drafting QBs for each of your first 3-4 picks in one draft. Admittedly nobody has done that, but not sure what you plan to do to evaluate the 3rd & 4th QB at that point since they'd be holding clipboards every practice

One also has to remember that you do need other players. Not just to win, but to keep the QB upright and healthy enough to play. So yes, drafting numerous QBs for successive drafts may actually require many of them to play, but for different reasons .... a lackluster and thin defense giving up score after score, allowing the other team's front 7 to pin their ears back and rush the QB, who has a sieve for an O-line .... would likely need numerous QBs to make it through the season in that scenario

As for drafting QBs being a "market inefficiency", well, there's a reason that the ones who go in the 2nd round don't go in the first. And that the one's who last til round 3 & 4 & so on last til then .... Numerous teams see them as not likely to be good enough to become a starter

There are obviously examples where QBs taken in Round 3 or later have become great, but there's also a reason we can easily rattle off names like Brady, Wilson & Prescott .... because they're 3 examples compared to the 7-12 QBs selected from Round 3 on every draft that peak at being a backup (if that)

Not to mention that system and supporting cast and situations are all vital to QB success. Tannehill was run off from Miami, gets to start in Tennessee and is putting up great numbers while leading the team on a playoff push. David Carr is called a bust while being obliterated behind a trash O-Line from day 1 in the league. I think that if Rivers were on those Giants teams then they'd have been just as likely to win multiple SBs as they did with Eli. And if Eli were on those Chargers teams that they wouldn't have been any more likely to get to a SB

Now I'm rambling and likely not even making sense, but yeh QB has a LOT that goes into it and succeeding at it, even if you're talented and motivated

Sorry for the novella

Last edited by ezpkns34; 12-27-2019 at 09:16 PM. Reason: and AB needs a therapist more than a new team
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Old 12-27-2019, 11:24 PM   #936
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A novella and yet every word correct

There is a huge amount of luck involved with which QBs develop
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Old 12-27-2019, 11:36 PM   #937
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....who will sulk in the bullpen because he isn't allowed to bring his support wolverine to the mound, tweet during the game his catcher sucks @ calling pitches and demand a raise in between innings.
No doubt. Just giving a possible Saints mindset.

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Most people's experience with QB is in flag football games &/or Madden games, where you're throwing it to whoever is open without any timing needing, where timing isn't even something that gets thought about

In a majority of NFL passes, the ball is on the way before the receiver is looking. That requires timing and experience between the QB & Receivers.
I'm glad you brought this up, because I think this is lost on the casual fan.

When QBs drop back and sling it from the pocket, most of the time it is a timing pass. If the QB extends the play by rolling out of the pocket or just holding on to the ball for longer than usual, that's when it reverts to looking for the open WR.

Now that I've stated the obvious, I get aggravated when people get overly excited about a QB based on the latter. Johnny Manziel is a perfect example. His fame came primarily off of busted plays. The NFL isn't going to let him do that.

It's always great to see a QB buy time and make a play downfield. But that's not always a good sign. You may have to ask yourself why with some young QBs. He may have done that because he doesn't yet trust his timing with his WR to throw in a tight window. Gardner Minshew comes to mind in that regard.
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Old 12-28-2019, 12:29 AM   #938
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The one thing i hate is when a qb doesn't give the receiver enough time to
go 5 yds when its 3rd and 4. Sometimes he cant but at other times he can.
Or the receiver doesn't know how many yards he needs to get to.
I don't mind Derek Carr's short passes because he completes a lot and the raiders don't really have a deep threat but i really hate it when he throws a 5yd pass and they need 8.
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Old 12-28-2019, 10:18 AM   #939
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You're better off drafting a QB later in the draft. Ten teams in the NFL have double digit wins. None of them feature a starting QB drafted in the top five of the draft.

The 6th overall pick cannot possibly be considered "later in the draft" when 250 players are drafted every year
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Old 12-28-2019, 10:49 AM   #940
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The 6th overall pick cannot possibly be considered "later in the draft" when 250 players are drafted every year
None of them went #6 either. Half the starting QBs for teams with 10+ wins were drafted outside the first round (Brady, Wilson, Brees, Cousins, Garoppolo). The others went #32 (Jackson), #24 (Rodgers), #12 (Watson), #10 (Mahomes), and #7 (Allen). There's nothing there to suggest tanking for a QB is a good plan. There's a fair chance that no sytarting QB taken in the top five of the draft will make the playoffs. Carson Wentz is the only one still alive.
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