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Old 05-04-2019, 05:07 PM   #21
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I got into this a couple weeks ago and I dont want to rehash that argument, but whether or not there is an actual thing that influences clutch hitting in real life baseball, clutch hitting in the past tense exists. Even if its random, a 3 run homerun that wins the world series is what it is. And I love looking at late inning pressure stats, even if they are technically meaningless, because they help to tell the story of that player's season and career.

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Old 05-05-2019, 10:19 AM   #22
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To answer the ops original question wouldn’t WPA be the closest thing to measuring clutch in baseball? Not sure if this stat is tracked in OOTP tho
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Old 05-06-2019, 08:56 AM   #23
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WPA solely tracks how your personal at bats affected your team's chance at winning the game. So it would be a very good stat, but not perfect.

And yes NoOne I should have known better than to counter faith with facts haha. Though to be fair to the guys arguing for a 'clutch gene' I hope you know I'm not trying to disrespect your opinion. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs. I just don't see clutch ever really come through in terms of data.
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Old 05-07-2019, 10:45 AM   #24
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There really is no such things as clutch. There are good players and there are bad players. If 'high pressure' situations get to you so much that you fall apart completely then you won't make it past high school ball, much less getting to the pros.
Just a guess, but you probably think Roy Hobbs is a fictional character.
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Old 05-07-2019, 01:15 PM   #25
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Just a guess, but you probably think Roy Hobbs is a fictional character.
I also think Shoeless Joe should be in the HOF
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Old 05-12-2019, 11:41 AM   #26
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There really is no such things as clutch. There are good players and there are bad players. If 'high pressure' situations get to you so much that you fall apart completely then you won't make it past high school ball, much less getting to the pros.


James Harden seem to do just fine.


I don’t know about buzz words like clutch but people being able to come through in high pressure situations isn’t a made up trait. Things like Heart, confidence all plays a factor. And if you are into astrology, then certain signs have those personality traits that feeds off of high pressure situations.

There is a clear difference in a player like Allen Iverson vs LeBron James. Iverson would be confident enough to take that last second shot increasing his chance to make it as he would not be timid in his form vs A LeBron would would rather pass it to freakin George Hill lmao.


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Old 05-15-2019, 10:28 AM   #27
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James Harden seem to do just fine.


I don’t know about buzz words like clutch but people being able to come through in high pressure situations isn’t a made up trait. Things like Heart, confidence all plays a factor. And if you are into astrology, then certain signs have those personality traits that feeds off of high pressure situations.

There is a clear difference in a player like Allen Iverson vs LeBron James. Iverson would be confident enough to take that last second shot increasing his chance to make it as he would not be timid in his form vs A LeBron would would rather pass it to freakin George Hill lmao.


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Using astrological signs as a form of proof already puts your response in the dubious category. Also, Lebron James is statistically one of the best 'clutch' performers in the nba. So really not sure what you're getting at. Once again not because clutch is a real thing...but because he's one of the best players in the league overall so during 'clutch' moments he continues to be himself.

I believe in the western conference semi's recap (Right after Lillard's ridiculous shot at the end) ESPN/ABC showed a graphic where Lebron was 12-23 on shots in the last minute or on the last possession. I'm not sure...but there are tons of articles out there showing Lebron's stats during the end of close games. You'll be interested to know he actually has a better percentage than even Kobe!
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Old 05-15-2019, 11:47 AM   #28
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Some treat “clutchness” as pure myth, preferring to distill player performance in highly important situations as 100% a function of that player’s overall skill level, regardless of situation.

In other words, the player is like a weighted coin, & that weighted coin is likely to come up heads “X” % of the time across all situations; thus, “clutch” players are merely higher skilled players & more likely to have a successful outcome in a “clutch” or any other given event.

I think this is an oversimplification. I don’t think humans boil down to 100% mathematical functions. They have emotions, biorhythms, & a plethora of factors whereby changed conditions & environment can impact outcomes.

You can have 2 players of virtually indistinguishable skill levels at hitting, for example, & have one’s performance negatively impacted by high pressure situations whereas the other’s is not (or perhaps even raised).

So I do not believe that clutchness is pure myth. Over-exaggerated? Probably. Surely many players have been unfairly labeled clutch or non-clutch based on chance & randomness. But I also think high pressure performance is more than simply a function of skill level. Different humans react differently to pressure.

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Old 05-15-2019, 11:56 AM   #29
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Some treat “clutchness” as pure myth, preferring to distill player performance in highly important situations as 100% a function of that player’s overall skill level, regardless of situation.

In other words, the player is like a weighted coin, & that weighted coin is likely to come up heads “X” % of the time across all situations; thus, “clutch” players are merely higher skilled players & more likely to have a successful outcome in a “clutch” or any other given event.

I think this is an oversimplification. I don’t think humans boil down to 100% mathematical functions. They have emotions, biorhythms, & a plethora of factors whereby changed conditions & environment can impact outcomes.

You can have 2 players of virtually indistinguishable skill levels at hitting, for example, & have one’s performance negatively impacted by high pressure situations whereas the other’s is not (or perhaps even raised).

So I do not believe that clutchness is pure myth. Over-exaggerated? Perhaps. But it’s more than simply a function of skill level. Different humans react differently to pressure.

I don't disagree, but my Devil's Advocate question would be "how often are terrible, or even average players, considered clutch? It seems to me it's always players who have been all-stars who are called clutch. Granted I'm going from memory so I'm aware some mediocre players have come through in the clutch once or twice in the playoffs, but how often are people with a mediocre regular season career somehow elevated to "clutch" in the postseason?
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Old 05-15-2019, 12:02 PM   #30
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I don't disagree, but my Devil's Advocate question would be "how often are terrible, or even average players, considered clutch? It seems to me it's always players who have been all-stars who are called clutch. Granted I'm going from memory so I'm aware some mediocre players have come through in the clutch once or twice in the playoffs, but how often are people with a mediocre regular season career somehow elevated to "clutch" in the postseason?
I completely agree with that aspect of it. I don’t believe a utility infielder can turn into a monster simply because it’s a clutch situation. High pressure isn’t a Jekyll & Hyde potion.

My point is only that between players of comparable skill levels, clutch performances can differ between the two.
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Old 05-15-2019, 12:04 PM   #31
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I completely agree with that aspect of it. I don’t believe a utility infielder can turn into a monster simply because it’s a clutch situation. High pressure isn’t a Jekyll & Hyde potion.

My point is only that between players of comparable skill levels, clutch performances can differ between the two.
Well said.
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Old 05-15-2019, 12:37 PM   #32
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I think it would be a player *retaining* their level of ability (and peak focus, perhaps) in the highest pressure situations.

Or with Tim Tebow’s miracle run with the Broncos, somehow *remembering* one’s ability at the end of the game
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Old 05-15-2019, 12:48 PM   #33
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Observationally, I have noticed athletes across diffierent sports who seem to only raise their game when the pressure is *on* - that would be clutch, though also a notable lack of determination (or mental focus) the rest of the time
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Old 05-15-2019, 01:02 PM   #34
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James Harden seem to do just fine.


I don’t know about buzz words like clutch but people being able to come through in high pressure situations isn’t a made up trait. Things like Heart, confidence all plays a factor. And if you are into astrology, then certain signs have those personality traits that feeds off of high pressure situations.

There is a clear difference in a player like Allen Iverson vs LeBron James. Iverson would be confident enough to take that last second shot increasing his chance to make it as he would not be timid in his form vs A LeBron would would rather pass it to freakin George Hill lmao.


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This is the dumbest post I've read in any forum. I could have a more intelligent conversation with someone who thinks the earth is flat.

Iverson was 20/60 on shots to tie or take the lead with under 30 seconds left

Lebron James is 55/165 in the same situations

Literally the exact same percentage
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Old 05-15-2019, 01:03 PM   #35
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I don't disagree, but my Devil's Advocate question would be "how often are terrible, or even average players, considered clutch? It seems to me it's always players who have been all-stars who are called clutch. Granted I'm going from memory so I'm aware some mediocre players have come through in the clutch once or twice in the playoffs, but how often are people with a mediocre regular season career somehow elevated to "clutch" in the postseason?
Since we seem to have moved to include the NBA now... I can think of several players, actually... Robert Horry immediately springs to mind. Reggie Miller was never a top tier inner circle HOFer like LBJ or Kobe but he was always at the top of people’s “clutch” lists. Derrick Rose. Chris Paul. Damien Lillard also isn’t considered an upper tier player but most people call him one of the best in the league in terms of performing under pressure.

Again, basketball is a much different game. I’ve already spoken to specific skill sets that become more important when the game is on the line and in the playoffs. That’s not this “mental toughness” crap, it’s other skills. In many cases those skills are extremely useful in non pressure situations as well. in others (Robert Horry’s ability to release quickly from range) they kind of aren’t or at least weren’t at the time.
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Old 05-15-2019, 01:32 PM   #36
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Reggie Miller was never a top tier inner circle HOFer like LBJ or Kobe but he was always at the top of people’s “clutch” lists.
I had to think this one through for a minute or two.
The image of Lyndon B. Johnson playing basketball sort of side-tracked my cognitive facilities. (He was 6'4", so maybe.)
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Old 05-21-2019, 04:51 AM   #37
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I don’t know how anyone can deny there is such a thing as performing under pressure. It’s basic psychology. Nobody in the pros is likely to “crumble” but there are certainly players who don’t perform as well. That’s complerely understandable. Not everyone can process that stress equally. Maybe the flaw in the “stats” guys is that the only tangible evidence with a large enough sample size extends to star players. Maybe the vast majority of stars can handle the pressure. But to think that all players perform the same in all scenarios is foolish.

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Old 05-21-2019, 08:03 AM   #38
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Rbi's used to be the number one way to tell how good a player was in clutch situations. Now they are considered an almost completely useless stat that are only manufactured by luck.
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