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Old 08-22-2016, 05:19 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpeters1734 View Post
It would be nice if we got a framing stat
I don't know if that's even objectively measured, or how, in RL?! I do know there's a component built into the Catcher Ability that embraces that aspect of the position, though.
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Old 08-22-2016, 05:26 PM   #22
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Myself I usually have it so that any catcher with a decent or above arm, and average or above ratings for fielding work for me. If they have a terrible arm or terrible fielding, they get moved to another position long before they hit the bigs.
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Old 08-22-2016, 05:36 PM   #23
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I don't know if that's even objectively measured, or how, in RL?! I do know there's a component built into the Catcher Ability that embraces that aspect of the position, though.
There are pitch framing metrics that try to gauge how well a catcher can turn borderline pitches into strikes as well as prevent would-be strikes from being called balls.

Catcher framing revisited - Beyond the Box Score
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Old 08-22-2016, 06:36 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Lockdog View Post
There are pitch framing metrics that try to gauge how well a catcher can turn borderline pitches into strikes as well as prevent would-be strikes from being called balls.

Catcher framing revisited - Beyond the Box Score
Framing seems to be a paradox like managing. Your link from 2015 has Russell Martin way down then, yet now in 2016 he's catching one of the best rotations in baseball. Who is driving it? The pitchers or the catcher? His replacement in Pittsburgh inherited a superior pitching staff and a coach who has some significant reclamation successes. Which one applies?

Jonathan Lucroy long regarded as one of the best pitch framers in the game had zero influence in making Milwaukee a winner. Now he has been traded to Texas his legend will be enhanced. However Texas was a superior team before Lucroy arrived. Will he put them over the top? Maybe; but I can guarantee he won't be blamed if they don't succeed. I'm very much into advanced stats but just like managing, player performance makes the difference. Pitch framing may be, in my opinion, another post facto stat that fits the narrative being told. Nobody cares, or more correctly, no one writes about about Buster Posey's pitch framing and game calling in the odd years when SF didn't make the playoffs.

I understand the concept of pitch framing. I'm sceptical that it creates more wins in the absence of superior player performance.
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Old 08-22-2016, 10:59 PM   #25
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There are pitch framing metrics that try to gauge how well a catcher can turn borderline pitches into strikes as well as prevent would-be strikes from being called balls.
I may be out of line in saying this but here goes.... Isn't that just bad umpiring.
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Old 08-22-2016, 11:04 PM   #26
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Christian Vazquez and the Value of Pitch Framing » Last Word On Sports

They conclude that an elite framing catcher gets about 3 additional strike calls compared to an average catcher. Now a simple conversion 3 strikes = 1 out will be faulty for sure, but some of those calls will result in Ks, other will result in walks not given, and even if it just moves the count, that still affects batter performance. It does not however make a good pitcher bad, or a bad pitcher good.

And Russell Martin caught a knuckleballer in Toronto. His stats will obviously be miles different from non-knuckler starts then. He'll be happy catching the damn ball, never mind framing it, and umpires are not calling knucklers often and will probably call strikes and balls differently from a normal pitcher.
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Old 08-22-2016, 11:08 PM   #27
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I may be out of line in saying this but here goes.... Isn't that just bad umpiring.
No. Those people are the world's best at their job. They are however still human, and a good catcher can exploit the inherent weaknesses of human perception. Until we get an automated strikezone, this will be part of the game.
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Old 08-23-2016, 08:26 AM   #28
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Christian Vazquez and the Value of Pitch Framing » Last Word On Sports

And Russell Martin caught a knuckleballer in Toronto. His stats will obviously be miles different from non-knuckler starts then. He'll be happy catching the damn ball, never mind framing it, and umpires are not calling knucklers often and will probably call strikes and balls differently from a normal pitcher.
Isn't Josh Thole the catcher for RA Dickey?
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Old 08-23-2016, 10:56 AM   #29
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Isn't Josh Thole the catcher for RA Dickey?
https://capitaljays.com/2015/11/04/t...ussell-martin/
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Old 08-23-2016, 11:57 AM   #30
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Christian Vazquez and the Value of Pitch Framing » Last Word On Sports


And Russell Martin caught a knuckleballer in Toronto. His stats will obviously be miles different from non-knuckler starts then. .
When Dickey Pitches, Josh Thole Catches, not Martin

I get your point though.
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Old 08-23-2016, 12:09 PM   #31
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He's pointing out that last year Martin caught Dickey and his offensive stats were significantly worse when catching Dickey than any other pitcher. And his defensive numbers suffered thanks to catching Dickey as well.
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Old 08-23-2016, 01:46 PM   #32
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No. Those people are the world's best at their job. They are however still human, and a good catcher can exploit the inherent weaknesses of human perception.
That.

Cather's know their job is to get strikes for their pitchers. They've been framing pitches so borderline calls might go their way since the day baseball was invented. And there's some cardinal rules about framing that no experienced catcher would violate.

Further, good catchers know that they have be diplomatic with umps if they want to get the calls. That means disagreeing with calls without showing them up. My personal style was to say to my pitcher, "Good pitch, keep throwin' that" or words to that effect. No one got their feathers ruffled and the next time he threw the exact same pitch he was liable to get the call.
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Old 08-23-2016, 02:00 PM   #33
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The criteria I use is a basic one. If a catcher can't hit much but plays anyway he is therefore a good defensive catcher.
When I query a MLB database and list all the less than optimal hitting catchers the list contains catchers who were known in their day as good fielding catchers pretty exclusively. This could just be a self fulfilling prophecy that fulfills itself of course but I don't think it is unless of course it is.
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Old 08-23-2016, 06:50 PM   #34
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For ratings, I feel the catcher ability rating is too broad. I would split it into glovework (generating strikes and avoiding errors) and blocking/reflexes (avoiding passed balls and general reaction time). As far as metrics go, it would be great to have a runs saved metric like defensive runs saved or defensive runs above average. I think that would be a good supplement to zone rating.
I also find Catcher Ability to be too broad, especially when we get more ratings for every other position. I'd like to see a Game-Calling Rating, an errors/passed balls rating, and an arm rating. Maybe a framing Rating, but that could be included in the game-calling.
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Old 08-24-2016, 01:08 PM   #35
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I have a (semi) related question about CERA, which ties into the Thole/Dickey conversation. Does anyone know (or have a strong suspicion) if personal catchers actually make a difference in terms of a pitcher's performance? As well, does a catcher's ability actually impact CERA (i.e. other things being equal, will pitchers pitch better to Russell Martin than Josh Thole). IRL, the Jay's pitching staff has benefited from having Martin behind the plate. Just wondering if that crosses over into OOTP...
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Old 03-13-2019, 08:27 AM   #36
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I have a (semi) related question about CERA, which ties into the Thole/Dickey conversation. Does anyone know (or have a strong suspicion) if personal catchers actually make a difference in terms of a pitcher's performance? As well, does a catcher's ability actually impact CERA (i.e. other things being equal, will pitchers pitch better to Russell Martin than Josh Thole). IRL, the Jay's pitching staff has benefited from having Martin behind the plate. Just wondering if that crosses over into OOTP...
I assume OOTPB dev are done with any new developments and staff and full concentrate on face gen and 90s animation
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