Challenge Mode should be harder

[TuckerDuckson]

Originally Posted by Orcin

Removing ratings does not make the game harder.

Uhh... it kind of does...

[Scoman]

If OOTP is really going to take this Challenge mode seriously , I think it needs to be broken down into several different categories of play.

With all kinds of ways to play it seems silly to lump them all into one group of ratings.

Id like too see separate categories of play such as,Fictional,historical w/recalc,Historical w/o recalc, Stats only which Id really like to see, for example so all the rating in each category would be based on the exact same setup by each player.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by NoOne

if it's as difficult to win as it is in the MLB, then 120-wins should occur at roughly the same rate, not simply be unreachable once or twice. seems like the difficulty isn't too easy. Some people know how to work a system, some don't or choose not to. no biggie... if you see 140's / 150's then it's nearing 'easiest.'

I think we are nearing "easiest" then. Does it seem realistic that someone could start with the current Yankees roster and make the moves needed to win 129 games? Or 144 games with ANY roster?

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Orcin

I think we are nearing "easiest" then. Does it seem realistic that someone could start with the current Yankees roster and make the moves needed to win 129 games? Or 144 games with ANY roster?


Attachment 503575

That's insane. To each his own, but I would uninstall OOTP forever if something like that ever happened in one of my games.

[Scoman]

Originally Posted by David Watts

That's insane. To each his own, but I would uninstall OOTP forever if something like that ever happened in one of my games.

Probably just exploiting the trading AI,Id like to see that with stats only and trading on very high.

[NoOne]

Originally Posted by Orcin

I think we are nearing "easiest" then. Does it seem realistic that someone could start with the current Yankees roster and make the moves needed to win 129 games? Or 144 games with ANY roster?


Attachment 503575

any protections against hex editors?

yeah, 140's is no problem with this game with most settings, to be honest and with out injuries 150's... you can learn new ways to maximize results. expecially the new and improved international free agents. i guarantee some don't realize how good they are, yet.

the major pitfall to making it "harder" is that you can make it unenjoyable too... it's a fine line and inevitably not going to reduce the top-win totals much. maybe some initial lag, but eventually we'd learn. there's a limit to what they can do without impacting how people play -- includes more than just the guy(s) winning 140+.

stats only would defintiely lower the win total a bit... it's simply a less accurate/precise way to measure players, therefore more difficult. maybe the highest inaccuracy settings would compare? so, i shouldn't make that a blanket statement, but in comparison to normal scouting accuracy or better, it most definitely applies.

however, some really don't like that style. it would be a great starting point for feeling out splitting up gameplay a tad. whichever metric divids people in half or quarters etc... you don't want to starve any category of players. just depends on #'s

if you are new to the mmo-esque / competitive nature of a sports game online, the culture is a foregone conclusion (challenge mode, not online leagues per se). they are all similar. you can't expect it to play like RL. except that a human is likely to exploit and take every inch given -- trust me, if RL GM could do some of the $%@ we can do in this game in the manner and ease with which we do it, they would.

it will bring out what some feel are negative attributes of others, but it's just a video game in the end. if being at the top of the leaderboard is important to enjoying challenge mode, then you assimilate and start maximizing wins, not a perception of how it should be and hope others follow the unwritten rules.

[NoOne]

Originally Posted by David Watts

My bad and I won't let it happen again, or if I do, I will make sure to use at least 6000 words and do so in a way that leads most to quit reading after a paragraph or two.

well the top portion is <100, i think, or thereabouts... if ~100 words is too long for your attention span, i really don't have a response to that. in fact, if you don't count the quote as a paragraph, it's 1 paragraph long, too. hey, look at that... it meets all your standards!

the embarassed emoji should be for fully formulated opinion about something completely unknown.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by NoOne

it will bring out what some feel are negative attributes of others, but it's just a video game in the end. if being at the top of the leaderboard is important to enjoying challenge mode, then you assimilate and start maximizing wins, not a perception of how it should be and hope others follow the unwritten rules.

You completely misunderstand the point of my post.

[David Watts]

.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by Scoman

Probably just exploiting the trading AI,Id like to see that with stats only and trading on very high.

Removing ratings would make absolutely no difference. The player would still know all of the star players in MLB today, and would know which prospects to acquire from the AI teams.

Trading can still be exploited easily on very hard. The same exploits work there.Some of the other restrictions on number of players, draft picks, etc. would make a difference.

[Scoman]

Originally Posted by Orcin

Removing ratings would make absolutely no difference. The player would still know all of the star players in MLB today, and would know which prospects to acquire from the AI teams.

Trading can still be exploited easily on very hard. The same exploits work there.Some of the other restrictions on number of players, draft picks, etc. would make a difference.

Yeah when I play historical with recalc on,I turn trading off,any way you slice it the Human has the advantage,but actually I was talking fictional play for stats only.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by Scoman

but actually I was talking fictional play for stats only.

But my post was about someone winning 129 games using the MLB quickstart.

[Scoman]

Originally Posted by Orcin

But my post was about someone winning 129 games using the MLB quickstart.

Gotcha ... not sure how to stop the exploits,its almost like Challenge mode would be better off being a fictional thing.

[OldFatGuy]

Non-Challenge Mode... or, you know, the basic game itself, should be harder.

AI AI AI AI AI AI AI AI AI AI AI AI AI AI AI AI AI AI AI AI AI AI AI AI AI AI ...........

[TuckerDuckson]

Originally Posted by Orcin

Removing ratings would make absolutely no difference. The player would still know all of the star players in MLB today, and would know which prospects to acquire from the AI teams.

Trading can still be exploited easily on very hard. The same exploits work there.Some of the other restrictions on number of players, draft picks, etc. would make a difference.

The point is with Stats Only is that it is difficult (unless you know what you are looking for) to tell if a player has fallen off the map due to OOTPs developmental engine.

I've had Stats Only Joey Gallos hit 500 home runs, and some hit only 130. I've had some Kris Bryants become HOFs, I've also had some become Indy Fodder. Also, not every prospect develops the way the scouts think they might, it's rare they even do in the base game.

I'm not saying Stats Only should be the only option for Challenge Mode, but it should at least be a preset option where you are unable to change it.

It's all useless though, since the rankings mean nothing of substance in the end of it.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by TuckerDuckson

The point is with Stats Only is that it is difficult (unless you know what you are looking for) to tell if a player has fallen off the map due to OOTPs developmental engine.

Stats tell you that eventually as you wait to see if it is a slump or a trend, and that is exactly what you would do if you have ratings on. Players have slump years with ratings on too.

But this is not a thread about playing without ratings. The discussion is germane for this reason... turning off the ratings will still leave all of the AI exploits that allow players to rack up endless 120-win seasons.

Why worry about ratings? Once the player's performance gives you any hint that he is declining, just trade him with a few junk players or prospects for a better player. Or sign a free agent to replace him because your prior ten 120-win seasons have given you the biggest budget in the universe. Or sign two or three free agents and trade them along with a couple of rookies that you don't need (because your depth chart is already three deep) for the best player in the league and just put your under-performing guy at the end of the bench. Or release him - you don't care about the financial hit either.

Originally Posted by TuckerDuckson

It's all useless though, since the rankings mean nothing of substance in the end of it.

If you really believe this, why do you keep returning to this thread to mess with those that do care about this mode of play and the integrity of the resulting leaderboard? Do your really want your no-ratings mode to be added to Challenge Mode if you think the whole concept is useless and wouldn't use the feature anyway?

[TuckerDuckson]

Originally Posted by Orcin

If you really believe this, why do you keep returning to this thread to mess with those that do care about this mode of play and the integrity of the resulting leaderboard? Do your really want your no-ratings mode to be added to Challenge Mode if you think the whole concept is useless and wouldn't use the feature anyway?

No need to vilify it. Basically what I'm getting at is that you're making a scene about something that has no real value outside of having 'challenge points' and your name on a leaderboard. If there was monetary compensation, or a gift bag for #1 in the world each month, then yea, I would see your worry in a whole new light. But at this point, it's nothing but a name and "arbitrary points"

Also, people can see if someone cheated their way to the top, it's pretty obvious like you say, so it's easy to see who is actually legit or not. I'm in no way trying to swing your views here, I'm trying to add some perspective to the whole discussion at hand: There is nothing of real 'substance' to be concerned about. Integrity? Sure, if you want to have integrity in the game then fine, I don't care.

And, I'm not 'messing' with anything, I'm just saying how Stats-Only would be a decent quickstart for Challenge Mode. Again, I said as an option, not as the definitive way to play it. And Stats-Only is a completely different ballpark than Ratings, but there is no need to get all topsy turvy about it.

And I would probably play Stats-Only Challenge Mode because that's what I play right now so...

Oricin, its fine that we share different views on this subject. We clearly see two sides to this discussion, and if you want me to refrain from commenting on this, then fine. I'm just saying, it needs some perspective.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by TuckerDuckson

There is nothing of real 'substance' to be concerned about. Integrity? Sure, if you want to have integrity in the game then fine, I don't care.

Yes, I think it is important to have integrity in everything that we do. If something is worth doing, it is worth doing right. I think this is worth doing. If you don't, that's fine. Challenge Mode is optional.

I am very interested in Challenge Mode and its leaderboard. Not everything is about money or power. Some things are done just for the fun of it. I enjoy seeing who has advanced, what leagues they are playing, and what new achievements were unlocked. If that is not a reward for you, no problem. Those things might have value to others, even if you can't understand why.

I would like to see the feature improved. By posting this thread, I am hoping to generate ideas to improve the feature, and raise attention to the fact that exploits need to be closed to make this mode truly challenging..

Your idea to have a Challenge Mode quickstart with ratings disabled is a fine one, as long as it is a fictional league. However, I don't see the developers creating this because I don't see many people with fictional leagues in Challenge Mode. Most of the interest appears to be in historical and current MLB, where ratings don't really help anyway. Thus, I don't think removing ratings really moves the ball forward in making Challenge Mode more challenging.

Personally, I think removing free agency, draft pick trading, and waivers would make the game much harder than removing ratings. Those are features that are often exploited.

The developers have stated that they intend to close the exploit of reloading saved games by only allowing a season to be submitted once. That will help the section related to season score, but does nothing to prevent the abuse that is occurring in the achievements section. That will require only allowing a game to be submitted once.

My suggestion is to allow only one active Challenge Mode league per player. The leaderboard for each player would be based on the most recently loaded league. In other words, the entire leaderboard for a player is recalculated every time that the player logs in. This would stop the cheating, and it would have the side benefit of resetting the board more often to provide interest for those competing.

A player could choose which of his leagues would "represent" him on the leaderboard just by logging in to it, so it would be possible to immortalize your best league and still play others. There could be a Hall of Fame created for the best leagues after some integrity checks were performed on them.

Yes, there would not be a monetary reward for this endeavor. That doesn't matter at all to me. I still find it interesting, and I would like to find it more challenging.

[Orcin]

Version 18.5 has made this improvement:
- In Challenge Mode, season scores and achievements will only be counted the first time when earned (to prevent cheating)

Bravo!

Now, I propose a "ladder reset" to see the effect of this change. It would work this way:
- everything on the leaderboard is erased
- each time a player logs in with a league for the first time, all achievements for that league would be added to his score

In this manner, no one would lose anything that is real, and we would be able to see a clean(er) leaderboard for the first time.

Next, the developers need to turn their attention to closing exploits. But let's see a leaderboard without blatant cheating first!

[Airdrop01]

Orcin, do you think as is you could build the QS Royals into a success of the type you see here in less than ten years, without shuffling the draft, etc.? I think it's super hard. It makes me quit before I get there, honestly. I'm doing the 89 Royals now and it's much easier (and more fun). I keep,wanting to try but can't bring myself to spend time on it.

I also thought the Cards were fun post war, but that's because I got Feller and Newhouser. That and Breechen turned into a stud.