Challenge Mode should be harder

[Orcin]

There are multiple exploits that can be used to build a super team in no time, most of which involve trading. The trade settings do not matter: "Very Hard" and "Favor Prospects" can be exploited also. Unrealistic manipulations of drafts and free agency only add to the madness. While it can be fun to build a team of all-stars, I believe Challenge Mode should present the experienced player with a challenge.

In order to make Challenge Mode more "challenging", I propose following rules to close loopholes in drafting and restrict exploitive trading. Call it "Super" Challenge Mode with a separate leaderboard, or just upgrade the current version.

1. Recently-acquired free agents cannot be traded for one year after signing date.
2. Draft picks cannot be traded, and the draft order cannot be randomized or reset.
3. Recently-drafted players cannot be traded for one year after their draft date.
4. Trades cannot include more than three players on each side (currently five).
5. Cash included in a trade must not exceed the budget deficit created by the trade.
6. Salaries retained in a trade must not exceed 25% on either side.


In addition, the following checks are needed to keep the leaderboard clean:

1. Seasons completed within X minutes of the prior season (a duration that is impossible to sim week at a time) should be deleted.
2. Consecutive seasons with the same year, team, and record (obvious re-loading exploit) should be deleted.


I would welcome comments from people that are participating in or interested in this mode of play. I know the developers are looking at ways to improve this feature, so this is an opportunity to give them some ideas.

[Airdrop01]

Lol. I wish you'd tell me via post or pm how to make such trades. I cannot make any good deals in Challenge Mode so far.

[Airdrop01]

Dude, like what did you do to win 121 games? That's awesome!!!

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by Airdrop01

Dude, like what did you do to win 121 games? That's awesome!!!

And yet, my high season score is only #25 on the leaderboard. So there are better seasons out there, which highlights my point about the base game being too easy.

Originally Posted by Airdrop01

Lol. I wish you'd tell me via post or pm how to make such trades. I cannot make any good deals in Challenge Mode so far.

In a league that spanned from 1946-54, I was able to trade for Hal Newhouser, Ewell Blackwell, Robin Roberts, Del Ennis, Jackie Jensen, Richie Ashburn, Mickey Mantle, Gus Bell, and Yogi Berra.

I acquired Newhouser by finding a couple of players that the other team wanted, and then piling on prospects until the other team said yes. I typically traded my entire draft for one of the first picks in the draft, which is how I got Ashburn and Bell. I acquired a 20-year-old Mantle by signing the two best pitchers in free agency and immediately trading them along with three prospects. The key is to use quantity to acquire quality and then replenishing the quantity by signing free agents.

Obviously, if I don't like playing this way, I could just avoid it with self-control. I have been doing exactly that for years. Challenge Mode is different. If the idea is to compare yourself to others, then why tie one hand behind your back? This is why I propose to make the game harder, and more realistic, for all that use this mode of play.

[Calvert98]

Oricon, when you play non-challenge mode games on 18, what are your AI trade difficulty settings?

[David Watts]

One thing that scares me about attempting to make Challenge Mode harder is, I would hate to see changes made that give OOTP an arcade or for that matter a console game feel. That feeling that the deck is stacked against you and right when you have a grip the game artificially pulls the rug out from underneath you. Hope this makes sense.

The piling on players to make a trade work problem has been around forever. Like you said, the only way to deal with it is to use self control. Bad thing is, if there was an easy fix for it, I'm sure it would have been dealt with years ago. Another issue that your post shows is the game not being able to correctly value historical superstars. You know those players are studs, not sure the AI does at any other time than the draft. Maybe there should be an ultra bad ass version of Challenge Mode that requires folks to only use the Quickstart or play fictional.....or some kind of stats only challenge mode.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by David Watts

Another issue that your post shows is the game not being able to correctly value historical superstars.

Challenge Mode does not allow recalc. So those stars I mentioned had the same opportunity to go into fast decline or, in the case of Mantle and Ashburn, just never reach their potential. In my case, they became who we thought they were, but it could have gone the other way and did in some cases. For example, Del Ennis declined rapidly and was mediocre by 1951 (when I traded him and some prospects for Jensen - who became better than real life and won a MVP).

I agree with the rest of your post. The problem has been around forever, and it is easily fixed. But it would be nice if the game would give you a way to turn on "self-control" in the game settings.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by Calvert98

Oricon, when you play non-challenge mode games on 18, what are your AI trade difficulty settings?

I have not played any games in 18 that were not Challenge Mode. In prior versions, I used Hard/neutral and a lot of self-control.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Orcin

Challenge Mode does not allow recalc. So those stars I mentioned had the same opportunity to go into fast decline or, in the case of Mantle and Ashburn, just never reach their potential. In my case, they became who we thought they were, but it could have gone the other way and did in some cases. For example, Del Ennis declined rapidly and was mediocre by 1951 (when I traded him and some prospects for Jensen - who became better than real life and won a MVP).

I agree with the rest of your post. The problem has been around forever, and it is easily fixed. But it would be nice if the game would give you a way to turn on "self-control" in the game settings.

Didn't know that about recalc not being available. That Makes a huge difference, especially in regards to pitchers. I find pitchers in no recalc leagues a complete crapshoot. Too bad the game couldn't flag trades that are clearly of the "pile on the prospects" type and have it count against the Challenge modee

[Airdrop01]

Well, I just managed the 86 Royals to the worst record in the league. Something like a 200 score. On the bright side, I think the draft class coming up has Griffey Jr. in it....

[Airdrop01]

Holy Crap!!! I was wrong. Braves were worse. It took total self control not to cheat and reorder until I had first pick!!! But I did it.

They took Delino DeShields!!!! I got Griffey!!!!!

[NoOne]

i don't know what console sports games you played but even in madden mode or "pro" you shouldn't lose... it may happen as a fluke, i guess?

playing with historic players is a bit of an advantage, too... a mis-scouted player cannot be identified by his name name when they are fictional names.

so in that situation it just comes down to trade difficulty. it's difficult to protect against abuse but still have a functioning trade logic. i've never seen a video game that could not be taken advantage of in trades without making it an untenable choice altogether.

do it like other sports games that have head-to-head... have tiers... maybe 3? 2? different rule sets. i wouldn't want to spread the competition too thin ... i don't know how many are involved.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by NoOne

i don't know what console sports games you played but even in madden mode or "pro" you shouldn't lose... it may happen as a fluke, i guess?

playing with historic players is a bit of an advantage, too... a mis-scouted player cannot be identified by his name name when they are fictional names.

so in that situation it just comes down to trade difficulty. it's difficult to protect against abuse but still have a functioning trade logic. i've never seen a video game that could not be taken advantage of in trades without making it an untenable choice altogether.

do it like other sports games that have head-to-head... have tiers... maybe 3? 2? different rule sets. i wouldn't want to spread the competition too thin ... i don't know how many are involved.

I'm 52 years old. People my age were only granted joystick skills worthy of games like Pong. I might consider buying a console gaming system if it was to come with a kid to play the games for me. Since, I'm not aware of that option being offered yet, I don't own one.

[Airdrop01]

Originally Posted by David Watts

I'm 52 years old. People my age were only granted joystick skills worthy of games like Pong. I might consider buying a console gaming system if it was to come with a kid to play the games for me. Since, I'm not aware of that option being offered yet, I don't own one.

That's so true. Whenever I play with the kids, I'm asked "why are you SO TERRIBLE!!??!!"

[Orcin]

My only responses to the original post are from someone who thinks it is hard enough already and two people that don't use Challenge Mode. I must conclude that the vast majority of players don't want the difficulty increased, even if it is optional. I guess I will be forced to return to house rules and self-control in order to be challenged by Challenge Mode. A pity because I had high hopes for this feature.

[Airdrop01]

Bear in mind you're playing with one of the best teams and eras in history. That's why I like that team and era too.

Try a 2017 non historical (because the ratings are different) CM as say KC with owner goals, etc on. Financials alone will kill ya.

[stl jason]

Originally Posted by Orcin

My only responses to the original post are from someone who thinks it is hard enough already and two people that don't use Challenge Mode. I must conclude that the vast majority of players don't want the difficulty increased, even if it is optional. I guess I will be forced to return to house rules and self-control in order to be challenged by Challenge Mode. A pity because I had high hopes for this feature.

or go the opposite route and put self control aside. Create such an outrageously successful dynasty that it blows the challenge board numbers away. This is a new feature, so it's going to be a work in progress. Perhaps if they see that things are too easy, they will ramp up the difficulty accordingly.

for now, just roll with it.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by stl jason

Create such an outrageously successful dynasty that it blows the challenge board numbers away.

I think it is impossible when the #1 average season score and high season score is an obvious cheater (by reloading the same season).

I want to be clear... I am not talking about you here. You are high on the boards because you have finished 35 seasons and done well in many of those. You are playing the era that you like and apparently enjoying yourself. Well done! You are who I want to compete against, whether you are following tighter rules or just playing the way you would normally.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by Airdrop01

Bear in mind you're playing with one of the best teams and eras in history. That's why I like that team and era too.

Try a 2017 non historical (because the ratings are different) CM as say KC with owner goals, etc on. Financials alone will kill ya.

Actually no. The 1946 Cardinals were the last pennant winner in almost two decades for the franchise. The team got old around Musial and management was very slow to integrate. I enjoy playing this team because it offers a rebuilding challenge, not because it is easy. However, it doesn't take long to rebuild if you can just run out and grab Newhouser, Feller, and/or Blackwell. I had all three until Feller blew out his elbow and retired prematurely.

I have played plenty of fictional, which is what the 2017 MLB quickly becomes. Regardless of what team you assume, the same easy exploits are available. Trades can be gamed, draft picks can be traded and/or manipulated, and free agents can be abused. If you start with a small market like KC, you will still very quickly (a few years) end up with a big budget by winning.

Please note, I am not saying that you are exploiting the system. I am just saying that it can be done regardless of team or era.

[Airdrop01]

Originally Posted by Orcin

Actually no. The 1946 Cardinals were the last pennant winner in almost two decades for the franchise. The team got old around Musial and management was very slow to integrate. I enjoy playing this team because it offers a rebuilding challenge, not because it is easy. However, it doesn't take long to rebuild if you can just run out and grab Newhouser, Feller, and/or Blackwell. I had all three until Feller blew out his elbow and retired prematurely.

I have played plenty of fictional, which is what the 2017 MLB quickly becomes. Regardless of what team you assume, the same easy exploits are available. Trades can be gamed, draft picks can be traded and/or manipulated, and free agents can be abused. If you start with a small market like KC, you will still very quickly (a few years) end up with a big budget by winning.

Please note, I am not saying that you are exploiting the system. I am just saying that it can be done regardless of team or era.

True but at least in my replay, Musial is hitting the prime and hit .399 or so a bunch of times. Boston offered me Ted Williams and it was basically a wash.

But yeah, if you go get Newhouse and Feller, and drafted Hank Aaron. I then fixed the draft one time to get Maris on the Cubs. So I get what you're saying.

But I don't think I'd have the patience to try a small market poorly rated team. I mean, I started up a KC one and the first thing I had to do was trade everyone anyone would take, which then meant I couldn't get anyone to sign or extend. I'm sure it can be rebuilt with enough effort, but that seemed too much like a job so I canned that league after seeing the first season! (Which irritatingly didn't save for some reason as I apparently wasn't logged in! Grrrr!

I say just chill with the Mode and play to have fun.

I'm gonna try to do either an 1871 type league or maybe try the Birds starting in about 93. Maybe I can get a 4hr game from Whitten again (I was in Cincy at that one!)