Female players

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by jpeters1734

All that said, just because a woman will never make the MLB, doesn't mean that women should be discluded from the game. There's women's baseball leagues. The strength of ootp is the ability to create almost any league you can think of

They're already included, aren't they? You just need to change all of the hims to hers in your mind and your league is up and running. Of course that's not good enough for some\most people, right?

If it were as simple as changing one variable and OOTP could then pick gender specific language then I'm still just luke warm to have it added (explanation to follow, hint: support). BUT.... Markus has said it is a huge coding issue. What is the ROI for taking all of the time it would take to change the code? I don't have a clue other than the developer saying it is not an easy thing to do. To me it is the classic case of pulling coding time from something the majority of users would, well, use and using it for something almost nobody would use.

Then let's talk about now that we have females we also have to support that feature with realistic female development models of strength and aging. Pretty sure it is different than men. When I bring this up I am told "oh no, we don't expect that we can do that on our own with modifiers and the modding community". Might be true for the guy saying it but he doesn't speak for everyone.

Someone will complain and have data on how women age and develop and expect coding time to make the female model realistic. Someone will have a women's league and want maternity added to the "injury" (for lack of better category) file. It's not realistic that the possibility of pregnancy doesn't interfere with a player's career. etc. etc. etc.

Someone will say LG is right the women's professional bb league used different rules and field measurements. Why aren't they in the game? Should at least be an option, right? They will say you added women to the game why don't you support that part of the game? Look at historical vs online vs solo players now and how someone from each camp always complains their part of the game is the redheaded stepchild and not supported properly. Now you can add the women's league players to the arguement, all 92 of them

Seriously this one is about how the time could be used better by a limited coding team to make the game better, be it the on-field game or in the front office.

The 3d game added a coder for just that purpose. OOTP dev. must have decided the 3d developer would create enough revenue over time to pay for himself. Maybe OOTP dev. could be convinced a new coder could be put on the payroll to develop the women's side of the game and no coding time would be taken from the current game. Anyone want to make the argument that this coder would pay for himself\herself with the women's project with all of the additional sales?

[thorpegiovanni]

Originally Posted by jpeters1734

Guinness recognizes chapman's. A low 80's fastball will not make it in the bigs. Before you name Moyer, he has 20 years of experience.

We all know speed has little to do with talent. You can throw 100+, but if it's straight and has no command, you'll get pounded. It wouldn't be easy, but finesse and command would allow a low 80s to make it.

[injury log]

Originally Posted by jpeters1734

Guinness recognizes chapman's. A low 80's fastball will not make it in the bigs. Before you name Moyer, he has 20 years of experience.

Michael Kopech throws harder than Chapman.

I said nothing about whether a low 80s fastball would play in the bigs, though if that's the question, Chris "Disco" Hayes almost made it to MLB ("Disco" because he couldn't get out of the 70s) and Ben Rowen maxes out around 80 mph. Those are submariners.

But I have no interest in wading into the conversation about how successful women might be in pro baseball, I was just clarifying a factual point.

[NoOne]

Originally Posted by dave1927p

Revenue and publicity are two very different things. In the end, it's all speculation. The hardcore may just see it more as a gimmick though in the end it wouldn't affect them. Unless it's an easy implementation, I just don't foresee a big enough demand for it to come to fruition. But you never know. In the end, everyone wants to see the game continue to grow.

different but clearly not exclusive of each other. i'm not speculating on actual interest - inconsequential to me. what a 'hardcore' player thinks is also inconsequential - as long as it isn't an impetus not to buy the product in protest - which only a retard would come to that conclusion in this instance.

hardcore players are likely a small percentage... they are one of the least important factions to listen to, if the seller is smart. if anything, i'd suggest that ootp listens less to the same old vioces in the forums. they likely do not represent the actualyl average player very well. hell, some suggestions completely ignore the laws of probabilty, physics, reality in general, lol...

there are some elevated levels of group think in the forums, for sure.

[NoOne]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

It's a gender issue only in the sense that the core of the game recreates professional baseball. And in professional baseball, there have been no female players, certainly not at the highest levels. (Once more: AAGPL did not follow the official baseball rules.)

i just stopped here... so some arbitrary rules being slightly different makes it not a pro baseball league? if we applied that uniformly, we'd have to strip out all leagues except the MLB, then (financial rules, among others, are just as important to what happens on the field as how far away the pitcher is from the batter -- think of the MLB before FA and after FA... is it still the game of baseball? yes.)... those other leagues don't function perfectly under MLB rules. they dont' even have the same CBA... we should call tehm somethign other than baseball leagues, too. maybe the nippon not-really-baseball league.

there has been a pro league... why deny it? lol. i feel like i am reading a textbook printed in texas with smiling slaves happily doing field work on a plantation. when people don't like history they just rationalize some skewed version of it that fits their needs.

the "highest levels" argument again is fallacious reasoning ... you are moving the goal line... under this logic we must aslo strip out all but the MLB, because they are inferior quality leagues since they don't belong in ootp for this reason.

so there has been a pro women's baseball league, despite some irrational attempt disqualify it... and you are applying different requirements to women than to men... so this is clearly just emotionally based arguments... because logic is not part of it.

i'm not bothering iwth the rest.. there coudl be some viable things said i just have lost any intestest after the first 2 logical fallacies used as viable arguments. once it moves to the irrational realm, i quit. not worth it when logic is lost


1 appeal to purity

2 informal fallacy

could extrapolate more, but those 2 are right on the visible surface.

the scary thing about implicit bias is that we are ignorancet of it... everyone has some. you don't even realize you are guilty of it... but when you genuinely (*not intentionally lying/manipulating, that's explicit bias, lol) use logical fallacies and irrational arguments to exclude a gender that's historically been subjugated as the "lesser" gender for absolutely no reason it's clear what the cause likely is. if it doesn't make sense, that typically fills in the gap as to why the argument is so illogical. some prejudice or implicit bias... they start "reaching" for things that aren't true.

there are plenty of examples in american politics right now, lol.
.

[jpeters1734]

this thread has devolved into madness, lol. i'm going to leave a few thoughts before i go for the night. I've had the flu all day and so i've probably been a nastier than normal. Anyways,

Kopech does NOT throw harder than chapman and to say so is laughable. kopech was throwing with a running start. not the same thing as pitching off a mound. and my comment about a low 80's pitch was directed at a different post.

sweet is right though that although the fact that there are women leagues and women that play in men's leagues, the return is not worth the investment.

I also don't understand the point about the different rules. baseball in 1871 has very different rules than 2017 but we have it in the game.

[injury log]

Originally Posted by jpeters1734

Kopech does NOT throw harder than chapman and to say so is laughable. kopech was throwing with a running start. not the same thing as pitching off a mound.

Kopech throws 105 mph in games. At least one baseball publication I read said he threw the fastest pitch in history last year, but I'm not going to the trouble of finding the link for you. I don't know what "running start" you're referring to.

[thorpegiovanni]

Originally Posted by injury log

"running start" you're referring to.

He's speaking about
White Sox Prospect Throws Ball 110 Miles Per Hour

[Hammercraft]

The only real limitation here is that OOTP is not real baseball, it is fantasy, a simulation; and simulations rely on creating a reality that satisfies the imagination. Some peoples' imagination simply can't handle that fantasy. It's codeable, it's believable, and many would say it's even inevitable, but the resistance isn't to the fantasy, the resistance is to the potential reality that fantasy would be based on.

[Airdrop01]

Originally Posted by Sweed

all 92 of them

Awesome post.

Also, you're an optimist, I see!

[IStillDream]

Also, I'd just like to point out that, now that the game is aiming to include independent leagues with accurate rosters, it's quite likely that there will fairly soon be actual female players represented in the game. Eri Yoshida played in the Golden Baseball League, which has a talent level as good or better than the independents currently in the game and produced Daniel Nava and Sergio Romo in roughly the same period she was pitching there.

At the point there's an active female pitcher in one of those leagues again, the debate becomes not "is it worth accounting for this hypothetical scenario that some people find ridiculous and others plausible," it's "is it worth accurately representing this real person who appears in the game?" Maybe that answer is still no–and if that's the feedback from the developers then I'm quite willing to accept it. But I find the level of intense anger against against the idea of allowing female players awfully curious and off-putting.

[rpriske]

The comment I find laughable is the one that said 'very few' people would play the AAGPBL.

You mean less than the Australian leagues that are now in the game?

No chance.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by IStillDream

Also, I'd just like to point out that, now that the game is aiming to include independent leagues with accurate rosters, it's quite likely that there will fairly soon be actual female players represented in the game. Eri Yoshida played in the Golden Baseball League, which has a talent level as good or better than the independents currently in the game and produced Daniel Nava and Sergio Romo in roughly the same period she was pitching there.

At the point there's an active female pitcher in one of those leagues again, the debate becomes not "is it worth accounting for this hypothetical scenario that some people find ridiculous and others plausible," it's "is it worth accurately representing this real person who appears in the game?" Maybe that answer is still no–and if that's the feedback from the developers then I'm quite willing to accept it. But I find the level of intense anger against against the idea of allowing female players awfully curious and off-putting.

You say

Maybe that answer is still no–and if that's the feedback from the developers then I'm quite willing to accept it

Well so far that is exactly what the developers have said. Too much work to change the hard coded gender language.

But I find the level of intense anger against against the idea of allowing female players awfully curious and off-putting.]

Intense anger? Where? Here? Huh?

Curious and off putting? There is nothing curious about it, it's about how limited coding time is spent. If it were easy to add "she" "her" it would already be done and we wouldn't be having this conversation. Some would complain it was added and then quickly forget it was even an option.

The point is even if one woman plays in one of those leagues is it worth the coding time to change the gender language as opposed to using that time on something else? (so far the developers have said it is not). Nothing more no matter how some want to make it about subjugating the "lesser" gender. If you have no argument to support the time it would take to code well then just go to name calling. Anyone that opposes women in the game is angry, biased, and a misogynist whether they know it or not. It couldn't possibly be that they would like to see coding time used to add the play where a runner is thrown out trying to advance\score on a passed ball, right?

We then further justify our disdain by saying well if women aren't in then all levels below MLB shouldn't be. It doesn't have anything to do with lesser talented leagues it has to do with gender language. The developers have said so many times.

More would play the AAGPBL than the current Australian league? You may have a point. My answer would be to petition the developers to remove Australia from the game rather than add females. That would leave more coding time for areas of the game that get large use. Although in reality I would argue Australia is easily added as most work is done by a volunteer roster team and only league settings\modifiers are tweaked to make it a lower league. My understanding is alll of that is possible for a women's league now if you can live with changing gender language "in your head" as you read a news article

So I ask again for someone to simply justify the time it would take to code?

If you have the imagination to fantasize about women playing in MLB (many are saying in this thread it will happen) than why not just fantasize that any new article you run across that uses "he" really says "she"?

[Hammercraft]

Originally Posted by thorpegiovanni

We all know speed has little to do with talent. You can throw 100+, but if it's straight and has no command, you'll get pounded. It wouldn't be easy, but finesse and command would allow a low 80s to make it.

Anyone with a great knuckleball has no limitations.

[Number4]

Originally Posted by Hammercraft

Anyone with a great knuckleball has no limitations.

Yeah, but you still could improve that by velocity. Doesn't matter if fastball or knuckleball, reducing the batters reaction time will always lead to an improved pitch if you don't need to sacrifice control or something else for it.

Giving men against a massive advantage.

I'd love female players being represented as females, but there are much more important male special snowflakes like submariners, switch-batters stopping switch-hitting, switch-batters batting their other side against knuckleballers (saw that one happening in an MLB game against Wright, which is infinetly more than one could see a woman batting in a MLB game), switch-pitchers and I guess much more.

If those actual MLB players aren't worth coding, why should the potential of somehow a female making it be worth it? I assume in game little would change anyway, just some gender pronouns.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Hammercraft

Anyone with a great knuckleball has no limitations.

And this is the one case I said it could happen BUT.......

How many successful knuckleball pitchers have there been in the history of the game compared to the pool of pitchers? The great ones are damned good but obviously it's not easy to learn. If it were there would be a ton of soft throwers learning it and making it in pro baseball. But there's not...

[Hammercraft]

Originally Posted by Sweed

And this is the one case I said it could happen BUT.......

How many successful knuckleball pitchers have there been in the history of the game compared to the pool of pitchers? The great ones are damned good but obviously it's not easy to learn. If it were there would be a ton of soft throwers learning it and making it in pro baseball. But there's not...

I found it pretty easy to learn. I threw a knuckle and a knuckle-change, and it was pretty baffling. What I lacked was ambition.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by jpeters1734

Bravo LGO! I'm glad someone broke that rant down

As stated, there are some folks these days who seem to think biology and biological differences don't exist. They most assuredly do. Human beings are no different from the most of the rest of the animal kingdom, which also exhibits sexual dimorphism. The evidence is enormous.

An associated problem is that some people appear to think that asserting there is a difference equates to saying one group is therefore superior to another. It does not. Pointing out that apples are different from oranges is not therefore stating that apples are inferior and oranges superior. They are merely different.

Originally Posted by thorpegiovanni

Simply put, I don't see it as a political or biological issue. I see it as an OOTP issue. We've come a long way with MLB and historical, and I'd like to see the fictional feature go further with more options, such as easier fantasy universes, and of course, female players.

It's a question of priorities. I can think of a number of aspects of real-world baseball OOTP still does not as yet authentically recreate; I would like to see those addressed. Then there are purely fictional things that could be done, such as a truly customizable playoff system.

Women-only leagues seems far down the list, especially since it's mostly a cosmetic issue (player images, names, and pronouns; all but the last can be gotten around right now, albeit with some work on the part of the user).

[Charley575]

My last comment on this.
I think part of the reason women don't play baseball professionally is because they are discouraged from doing so at a young age. Boys play baseball, while girls are shuffled off to softball. It's a travesty. Let girls play baseball at high school and college levels. Dump that softball crap. Softball is for 40 year old guys with beer bellies. It's a dumb-down bastardized version of a great game. Even if women don't mix into men's pro leagues, I know I'd buy a ticket to a professional women's league game. Baseball is baseball, and it's a great game for everybody.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Hammercraft

I found it pretty easy to learn. I threw a knuckle and a knuckle-change, and it was pretty baffling. What I lacked was ambition.

And how many MLB pitchers did you come up with that have had a successful career throwing one over a 115 years? If it's easy there are a lot of pitchers that are foolish for leaving millions and millions of dollars on the table. Hell if a player gets to AAA and can't hit the curve just spend a bit of time on a knuckleball and voila, you're in the show.