Ratings of the Day Council

[djday45]

Here is Doug Jones a very slippery customer of the early 60's who exceleld at two weights. Pls note this is only his heavyweight rating.

If I dony mention it then you know I agree with the rating already listed on his heavy rating in the game.

STANCE - Left Handed. Im using this to reflect that most fighters didnt look good against Jones or produce their best performances, he was a spoiling, slippery fighter as a young Cassius Clay found.

COVER UP -3. Up one. He managed to spoil and go into his shell often in a fight and could be quite hard to prise open once hurt.

CLINCHING -73. Degraded three steps. He was quite good at stopping a fighter working on the inside and this is reflected here, also quite strong for a small heavy.

CONDITIONING -10. He was sometimes the very definition of a malcontent, always seemingly unhappy with how his career was panning out, in his defence he was often overlooked but it sometimes made him erratic.

CONTROL VS BOXER AND SLUGGER -11/10. Both up one, despite his small size and really being only a blown up light heavy he still managed to control most of his bouts until you really reached the top cream of the division.

CHIN VS KNOCKDOWN -3. Degraded one step, he had a good chin but not a great one and could be hurt at heavyweight, where in truth he fought very few true power punchers, this is more a reflection of he was not a true heavy than any perceived weakness here.

ABSORB PUNISHMENT -2. Improved one step, he was only tko'd once against Chuvalo which I feel is not enough to give him a three here. Overall he withstood punishment well and was brave.

AGRESSIVNESS -6. A very cautious fighter more so at heavy where he let guys come to him and evolved into more of a counterer.

DEFENCE -2. Improved one step, he was a slippery defensive fighter very good at shutting off his opponents offense, I would make this rating better but he was a small heavy so had natural problems with reach etc.

FAST STARTER -3. Degraded one step, he was a slow starter who did take some time to get going in bouts.

HITTING POWER -7. He was quite an underatted puncher who took out Foster, Folley, Von Clay and Olson in his day as well as many others, his style was sometimes similar to Folley where his punches although not truly powerful were hurtful and snappy.

COUNTERPUNCHING -40. Improved one step, at heavy he was a counterer and very clever and this reflects that, his natural disadvantages at this weight stop me increasing this or punching any more but he was above average here.

OVERALL RATING -9. Up two, he is underated by the game as a heavy at the moment, this rating will see him rise to mid way in your top ten list and maybe challenge for the crown, for sure he will be the kind of fighter no one wants to face and would give anyone a hard frustrating night, but not quite hall of fame material and sometimes inconsistent.

[a87star]

Thanks Dean. It's really good to see the really good HW's that are "forgotten" being discussed and evaluated ratings wise. There's a ton of them in mostly every era.

[djday45]

Originally Posted by a87star

Thanks Dean. It's really good to see the really good HW's that are "forgotten" being discussed and evaluated ratings wise. There's a ton of them in mostly every era.

Yes, i'm really enjoying going through the era with a fine tooth comb lol.

[djday45]

Lavorante is really accurate in the game as is just a few tweaks needed.

CONDITIONING -2. Nothing to make me give him the best conditioning in the game so am reducing him down.

CONTROL VS SLUGGER -9. Up one. He always did better with his power punches against men right in front of him.

HITTING POWER -10. Up two. Was well known for his power and knockout punch and this with the Folley victory was got him into the top ten for a time. One dimensional though but me must make sure the dimension is actually worth while.

OVERALL RATING - 5. Up one. A very small set of changes as I said he is almost perfect as is.

[djday45]

Rademacher is a real hard fighter to rate, his career was total contradiction. He was an Olympic champ with great amateur experiance but he also as a pro lost the vast majority of his big fights and only fought 23 times and was down 25 times in those bouts.

As usual if I agree with a rating I wont mention it.

STYLE - Boxer. He was not really a boxer/puncher he was not that good, his style was really a hard counter puncher.

CONDITIONING -3. Im changing this to reflect the trouble he had adapting to the pros at such a high level so quickly.

CONTROL VS BOXER/SLUGGER - 9. Improving both of these by two. Now a seven is way too low for him he was an Olympic champ with a great amateur record, general boxing nous and skills were not his problem he in fact in these departments was just under main contender level.

CHIN VS KNOCKOUT -6. Degraded two steps. This was his problem his chin, it was truly, truly awful. as I said down 25 times in 23 bouts.

CHIN VS KNOCKOUT -4. Degraded one step, again this was bad knocked out 6 times in his seven defeats.

RECOVERY -7. Degraded four steps, this is the real killer for him, time and time again he just collapsed in fights eight times against Moore and six against Patterson were only the worst examples, in nearly all his ko defeats there were many knockdowns.

KILLER INSTINCT -7. Up one, when he did get foes in trouble he could be quite an effective finisher himself.

AGRESSIVNESS -7. Down one, being a counterer he didnt really lead much agressively.

ENDURANCE -6. Down one, here was his other big problem, he just had no stamina in the pros and was continually stopped once he had taken damage and run out of puff, over three rounds he would have been a pretty good fighter but not over ten or fifteen.

DEFENSE -0. Improved one step, he was in fact ok defensively due to his cautious style and good amateur experiance, not great but was ok.

FAST STARTER -0. Used to starting out quickly with the amateurs and this bled through into his pro career, prob one of the factors in not pacing himself properly.

HITTING POWER -7. Up one, he was quite a solid puncher and could be dangerous and the fights he did win his stoppage percentage is pretty good.

COUNTERPUNCHING -40. Up one, improving this to show his style as a counterer, where he would step back and wait for them to lead then hit them hard, but woe betide Pete if they landed lol.

OVERALL RATING -4. Down one. God hes hard to rate, in the game he was under estimated skills wise but over estimated big time with that awful, terrible chin.

[djday45]

As we get into the lower reaches of fighters, this is where the games ratings become really quite inaccurate I feel. Anway here is Bygraves the Jamacan heavy, quite a few ammendments here.

FOUL RATING - Frequently. Degraded 3 steps. Bad start, how do you give him a seldom when the man lost four seperate times to disqualification and was known as a really dirty fighter, Its ratings like these which makes me question if fighters records were given even more than a cursory glance.

FIGHT INSIDE -2. Up one, he was a come foward brawler so upping this.

FIGHT OUTSIDE -1. Down one, as above taking this down as he was not known for his boxing skills.

GO FOR KNOCKOUT -2. Up two, he was quite capable of taing his foes out so im making this an option for him.

CONDITIONING -8. At the end of the day he was a quality journeyman so im making sure he acts like it here by sometimes taking fights on short notice.

INTELLECT 5. Down two. He was not a clever fighter not much subtlety.

CONTROL VS BOXER -7. Up one. He was a journeyman not a tomato can, so bringing him up slightly here.

CONTROL VS SLUGGER -8. Up two, as above but always more effecgtive against his fellow brawlers.

CHIN VS KNOCKDOWN -2. Up one. Actually a pretty solid chin a lot of his stopappages were tkos or straight ko's not much evidence of him going down easily at all.

RESISTANCE TO CUTS -2. Up one. Not much evidence of him being overly a bleeder so bringing this down slightly as a 3 here can be quite extreme.

AGRESSIVNESS -8. Up one. He was a come ahead brawler so should be in this region.

HITTING POWER -6. Up five. This was way out, he stopped over half of his opponents in his victories and a solid six here is a nice number for him, with this at one he does not perform at all how he should he should feel slightly dangerous with slow lumbering punches which could wear you down. There is a bad tendancy in the games ratings to give lower skilled fighters a one hitting power as a matter of course, I hate that every fighter is an individual.

COUNTERPUNCHING -30. Degraded two steps. He was slow and crude however and there is no reason for him to have an equal punching and counterpunching number.

OVERALL RATING -3. Up two. A much better level for him as he will now perform as he should as a quality journeyman travelling the globe taking fights where he can get them and sometimes winning sometimes losing.

[bear]

Your Bygraves tweaks look spot on.

[Claybor]

Duane Bobick

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Taking a quick break from 50's guys to do a couple of requests for Dennis.

Bobick is very underated now, people forget he defeated both Holmes and Stevenson as an amateur. and before his loss against Norton he was considered a real contender for the championship.

DRAW POWER -7. Vastly underated by the game here Bobick had a big following and was considered the next white hope after Quarry.

CONDITIONING -9. He was always easily distracted by out of the ring distractions and the biggest of these was his brothers death in a car crash, Bobick was never the same after and never really looked to care about his career in the ring after this event.

INTELLECT -5. He was no genius in the ring but he wasant a 2.

CONTROL VS BOXER - 10. Im upping this and slugger control by two because he was a threat to the title and also it represents his physical attributes which were impressive, he had great natural strength and physique and often bullied opponents.

CONTROL VS SLUGGER - 10. See above, his lack of boxing skills stops me taking this higher than 10.

CHIN VS KNOCKOUT -5. Degraded one step, it cannot be ignored that when he got in with guys that could bang he often went down and out. I dont know perhaps he didnt want it enough but he certainly collapsed in his biggest bouts.

DEFENSE +4. Bad defensively, never really learned how to protect himself always a face first brawler.

HITTING POWER -10. Up one a genuine one punch man, but again it seemed to desert him when he most needed it so I cant go above 10.

PUNCHING -38. He was considered on the slowish side but his great amateur experience ensures i bring this up to at least average as he was better schooled and seasoned than most heavies.

COUNTERPUNCHING -34. He was not in any way a counterer, too agressive and slow.

OVERALL RATING -5. Up one, this rating will ensure he does dispatch most guys underneath him with a bit of ease but then he will blow up spectacuarly against the real cream of the division or the occasional dangerous puncher.

Very nice. I had been waiting for a 'rerate' on Bobick, and I absolutely think this one should become official. I hadn't looked at this post in quite some time, excellent work.

[Infinity]

Originally Posted by djday45

Ok here is Marciano first as a prime then in brackets any ammendments i might make to model him having a 2 or 3 year lay off.

STANCE - Left Handed. I strongly feel a way to make Rocky in the game the rampaging monster who was a nightmare for skilled boxers to face is to give him a tick in this rating. He was well known to be unorthadox and awkward in the extreme, in the beginning this was just him being unskilled and brutish but Weill managed to make it a big plus by the time he was a contender. Punching from weird, if not totally wrong angles Rocky was a nightmare to predict and defend against. You guys know I like to use this category to represent special style factors which have an effect on an opponent.

STYLE - Sluuger. Doh

FOULS - Often. He was a dirty, dirty fighter and im very surprised, if not amazed that he did not lose a fight by DQ. (its quite possible you could change this rating to frequently to represent both his mistiming of his punches and also the growing frustration when he realises his skills are not the same in fights as they were and this realisation kicks in)

FIGHT INSIDE -4. A total monster inside one of the great heavies at this strategy. (3). Maybe reduce it down one to represent him not being able to to quite what he once did.

FIGHTING OUTSIDE - 1. He was not really able to change his style to a boxer, his instincts took over.

COVER UP -1. As above, as with many great punchers he was just so unused to going on the defensive he was bad at it.

GOING FOR KNOCKOUT -4. Again he was simply superb at this, its where he lived. His whole aim was to take out his opponent. (3). Again think seriously of taking this down a notch after his layoff, good way of showing rust.

CLINCHING -73. Really not a mover apart from cutting off the ring, he often mauled inside however. (75). take away some more movement and make him maul even more so. fighters after layoffs lose their legs first in most cases.

DRAW POWER -10. This is a given, an amazingly popular fighter.

CONDITIONING - 1. One of the best conditioned fighters in history. (7) Depends on how your doing his comeback, if its only a single fight make him inactive, if a slow continued comeback then maybe start with a 7 then cycle through 4,3,2 every few fights to represent him slowly making progress and getting back to his former self, i would stop at a 2 so it shows he cant quite get back to his glory days of fitness.

INTELLECT - 6. Not an amazingly thinking fighter his stratergies didnt need to be to be honest.

CONTROL VS BOXER 12. he always had more probs with movers as is quite classic with his style he was nearest to defeat against Walcott and La Starza.
(10). This should take a big hit after the comeback. they would seem even faster and out of reach to him after 2 or 3 years off.

CONTROL VS SLUGGER -15. He is totally on the plateau with Foreman, Dempsey and Louis vs sluggers. a total wrecker of a fighter against guys who could not get out of the way. (14) this would take a small hit after the comeback but not so much as against boxers.

CHIN VS KNOCKDOWN -1. He had an amazing chin and was down only a couple of times in his career and always got back up. (2). This would suffer slightly after the comeback, every couple of years I would degrade it again. see what happened to james jeffries.

CHIN VS KNOCKOUT -0. See above, he truly was a rock of a man. I would not degrade this after the comeback, he would still keep getting up and taking a beating, not a good thing for his health.

RECOVERY -0. He had amazing powers of recovery, one of the best in division history. (2) I would degrade this two streps for the comeback again see Jeffries as the model as to what could happen.

RESISTANCE TO CUTS -3. He bled often and sometimes very badly, again in the modern era I really feel he would have not been undefeated, he would have lost both on cuts maybe multiple times and on DQ. (4) His scar tissue would have got worse, he would have bled even more easily.

ABSORB PUNISHMENT 1. This is a no brainer he was one of the most courageous heavyweights ever, period.

KILLER INSTINCT -10. A great, great finisher totally ruthless. (8) I feel this would be affected, his reactions would be dulled and his speed would effect his finishing ability.

AGRESSIVNESS -10. A total bull coming foward he would dominate and take the ceter of the ring against nearly all heavies.

ENDURANCE -10. He had amazing stamina durig his prime years and was just s dangerous in the championship rounds as early in the fight. (9). He would take a small hit here jsut to represent the effect on his body of aging and lack of training.

DEFENSE +4. His big weakness is here. He got hit a lot, sometimes an awful lot, really he never developed a good defense other than his offense. (+6). If I could make this worse i would, this is where all comebacks fighters are normally never the same, their reflexes.

HITTING POWER -13. One of the hardest hitting heavies in history, his blows here like sledgehammers especially his right hand Suzy Q. (12) A slight degrade, to represent his loss of snap and timing not a degrade in real power.

PUNCHING -40. He wasant particuarly accurate fast or skilled but oh my god the sheer volume of punches. (36) Again this would take a big hit, the volume would be the same but the timing would be often woefully off.

COUNTER PUNCHING - 36. See above in no way a counterer. (32) This again would take a big drop, its always the speed timing and reflexes which go out of the window, they can see the opportuities they just cant take them.

PUNCHES MISSED - 64. Due to his punching style of high volume he was always going to waste punches. (66) even more so after the comeback.

OVERALL RATING - 13. A true all time great.

The professor asked me to toss my 2 cents worth in here because of this:

Originally Posted by Infinity

Now I don't know that I would expect he lost that much at only 34, sure he's been out for 18 months or so, but that's not that long in the grand scheme of things. Marciano's skills were based on his insane conditioning in my opinion. He ALWAYS came into a fight in tip top shape, and I don't see that changing all that much. I also think that if they do allow Marciano to return and fight Patterson, (and I'm SURE he'll destroy Patterson) it'll give the organization a strong sense of legitimacy as well!

I don't claim to be the expert ya'll are, as I've just recently returned to the game (played the board game back in the late 70's through to the late 80's but didn't find out about this gem of a game until a bit over a week ago....lol). One other thing about Marciano, I can see him having kept himself in shape during his retirement, as he strikes me as one who's a creature of his routine. If he were tempted to return, it would only be because he'd kept himself close to the conditioning that he had during his amazing run as the ONLY undefeated Champ!

[professordp]

Now that you are going into the early 1960s, how about taking a second look at some of the "White Hopes"? I speak for many of the members when I say it would be great to have your take on Tom McNeeley, George Logan, and Lamar Clark.

[djday45]

I can never refuse the prof lol. As always if I dont mention a rating you know I agree.

Fouls - Often. He was DQ'd against McAteer and was known as a tough rough fighter generally.

Go For Knockout - 2. Up one. With fighting inside, this should be his primary tactic as he was a very good puncher, more on this later.

Draw Power -3. Up two. As a minor white hope of the early 60's McNeeley had a minor but very solid following.

Intellect -5. Up two. He was not Archie Moore but he wasant a three lol. McNeeley was a good experienced pro.

Chin Vs Knockdown -3. Improved two. McNeeley had one of those weird chins where sometimes it would hold up fine against good hard punchers like London and Cleroux other times he would fold terribly ala Patterson. My hunch is that he wasant hurt as often as we assume and it was his recovery which stunk not this catergory, still not a good chin but average.

Recovery -6. Here is where the bad stuff kicks in. He wont be hurt as often with these ratings and sometimes hold up well against even a hard puncher but when he goes you should sometimes see a collapse of epic proportions. After all Floyd did put him down 11 times!.

Agressivness -8. Up one. He was a agressive brawler/puncher a 7 is too low for that kind of fighter.

Endurance -8. Up one. There is not much evidence to give him such a bad endurance he had no string of late round stoppages against him and in fact stopped some guys himself in the late rounds.

Hitting Power -8. Up three. This was way too low, he wasant a one punch man but a very brusing puncher who stopped 28 men in 37 wins a very good average. his power is what made him a minor contender.

Punching -38. Degraded one step. He wasant considered fast or overly skilled a 40 is too high for him. An average level of 38 is fine.

Overall Rating -4. Up one. Still a minor contender and really not even that a good journeymen who should never have got that shot against Patterson and failed against every real contender he came up against, jones, bonavena, london, cleroux.

[djday45]

Very underated currently in the game this guy current rated as a zero was not a tomato can but actually got into the rings annual top ten once in a very competive era.

Draw rating -3. Down one, a minor solid following but lets not get carried away.

Conditioning -2. Down one. You guys know I hate giving out ones here unless the fighter was truly outstanding or really known as a great trainer and athlete.

Intellect -4. Up one, Logan was not a great strategiest by any means.

Control Vs Boxer -7. Up two. He wasant tomato can level he was journeyman, gate keeper level this rating ensures that.

Control vs Slugger -8. Up two. As above, the games rating was two low, he defeated Lavorante, Besmanoff and Rademacher, not the wins of a tomato can.

Chin vs knockdown -2. Up one. He had an excellent chin and despite four stoppages against him was never ko'd.

Chin vs knockout -1. Up one. See above.

Recovery - 1. Up one. Again see above, he had a very solid chin indeed.

Hitting Power - 5. Up two. He was a good solid heavyweight puncher able to hurt opponents of the lower tomato can calibre often and hard. he stopped 16 of 25 wins. A 5 is about right for him.

Punching -34. Up two levels. A 30 is way two low for him he was slow but omg he was no club fighter.

Overall Rating -3. Up three. A big increase as the game had him criminally low, he should now be able to defeat other minor contenders and journeyemn on occasion but more often be cannon fodder for your top fighters as was reality for him.

[Syd Thrift]

We really, really need to redo Wlad. No way is his power equal to an in his prime Mike Tyson. I haven't done nearly as many of these as y'all have, but perhaps my ratings will give a better rater a place to start.

Style: Boxer. Right now he's "Either". While he could theoretically go in and start slugging it out with people, I don't see him doing that, period.

Fouls: Seldom. Stays the same.

FI: 0 (from 1). Vitali is not a pressure fighter.

FO: 4 (stays)

Cover Up: 1 (stays) I think this is actually pretty accurate. He really isn't all that good at covering up when a Lamon Brewster happens to land a good punch.

Go for KO: 1 (from 3) After the Rahman fight, and the Thompson fight for that matter, I don't see how you can rate the guy higher than this. He flat out will not go for a knockout when it's presented to him. Even his post-fight interviews have him asking why the other guy's corner didn't throw in the towel earlier.

Draw Power: 8 (from 5). Truth be told, he's very, very popular in Europe.

Conditioning: 1 (was 2). I don't think I've ever seen Wlad come into a fight out of shape.

Intellect: 9 (from 6). He's a very, very smart guy, and in TBCB terms his trainer should basically be able to tell him to fight outside every single round.

Control vs. Boxer: 11 (unchanged). About comparable to Lennox Lewis in this regard.

Control vs. Slugger: 11 (from 9). This is a bit of a departure, but Wlad's issues do not come from not being able to handle awkward brawler types, they come from the fact that he can be taken down by a guy with one punch.

Avoid Knockdowns: 3 (from 2). I'd give him a lower rating but there really aren't any heavies at Wlad's level worse than a 3. Anyway, he's at least as prone to being put on the floor as Joe Louis.

Chin vs. KO 1 (unchanged). I will give him this: when he's put down, he does get up a lot of the time. See: the Samuel Peter fight.

Recovery 3 (unchanged): This, coupled with the KD1 of 3, means he's effectively a 6 after he's been dropped once. I thought I was going to need to drop this, but a. nobody with a 4 or worse is in the same league as Wlad, and b. I think it actually works out okay.

Resistance to Cuts 2 (unchanged): He isn't a bleeder and he isn't not a bleeder.

Absorb Punishment 3 (unchanged): Again, everybody below him is an opponent, and some of the grognards here (note: that is not a derogatory term) don't like ratings where top-flight boxers are compared to Mel Turnbow, even if it's just the one rating.

Killer Instinct 6 (from 7): I'm tempted to give him something really, really low, but even Emile Griffith gets a 7. Tony Thompson has a 5 and he closes off fights less often than Wlad does, so a 6 is about right.

Aggressiveness 8 (unchanged): A pretty meaningless rating in TBCB but Wlad does start pumping the jab pretty much from the get-go.

Endurance 10 (from 6): Did Wlad have staying problems earlier in his career? Nowadays he seems like, if anything, a guy who takes his guys to decisions when he shouldn't and scores mid to late "the other guy got tired" style KOs. He's always in shape coming into bouts and consistently seems to be the second guy to get tired.

Defense 0 (unchanged): Very few heavies get rated better than 0 and I don't see a compelling reason to rate him ahead of Lennox Lewis in this regard. Like Lewis, he's relatively hard to hit not so much because of great defense but because of the fact that he controls fights with his skills so effectively.

Fast Starter 3 (unchanged): The early rounds are where he shows his weakness, so giving him a little control hit early on sounds about right.

Fight on Ropes 3 (unchanged): A theoretical rating, as Vitali's ring generalship is such that he rarely if ever gets stuck on the ropes.

Hitting Power 7 (from 12): I don't know how anyone can say that Klitschko hits like Earnie Shavers with a straight face. His non-decision victories tend to come from TKOs and late-round tired man knockouts. Going down the list... he doesn't outhit Riddick Bowe or Joe Louis, so a 10 is out... he's regarded an inferior puncher to Hasim Rahman and probably isn't on the level of Chris Arreola or George Chuvalo so forget about 9... I have a hard time ranking him with Jack Dempsey at 8... Ali at 7 seems a good comp. Wlad can, in theory, land a harder right than Ali had but he uses the jab so, so much that I have to put him here and could even be convinced to drop him lower.

Punches Landed 40 (from 38). Compubox thinks he's very accurate for a heavy. Is this the residue of a lack of quality in the division right now? Probably, but you can only judge a guy by what he's actually done. This is a level higher than Lennox Lewis, but Lewis now has a great deal more power than Wlad so that evens out.

Counterpunches 42 (from 36). Part of Wlad's allure as a top boxer is how well he times his jab and dissuades guys from getting inside him. One way to simulate this in the game is to give him a high counter-punching rating. Boxers shoot and miss at their own peril.

Clinching 71 (same): He does clinch a lot, but most of the guys with higher ratings are not on his level. His brother is a 72.

Overall: Still a 9, but a much different kind of 9 than what he was before.

[professordp]

Dean--thanks for rerating Logan and McNeeley! I agree with you that Logan's original rating was way off!

I will continue to pester you for updates on third tier fighters who occupied the arcane realms of boxing.

[djday45]

Ok why this man is rated so weirdly in the database escapes me, I can only think due to his opposition the rater wanted to be cautious in the extreme, but it makes no sense if you take into account his amateur career.

Anyway here is my take.

FOULS - Often. He was part of Fullmer's stable and its documented in places that he took on Gene's rough tough style of mauling and fouling.

FIGHT OUTSIDE -0. Down one. He didnt box lets not kid ourselves he knocked people out simple as that.

GO FOR KNOCKOUT - 4. Up one. This guy still holds the most ko's in a row record, lets try and rate him so that could be a possible reality against bad opposition.

CONDITIONING -3. Lets not give out these ones!!!!! The conditioning part of the game is one I feel is very important in causing upsets and imposing some unforseen reality dosage on the game sometimes, lets use it and not make every boxer perfect! only the perfect ones! which then shows up how special they are in this catergory, why do people make everyone a Holyfield and Marciano here?

INTELLECT -5. Up Two, very loath to reduce this below 5 unless for real lossing record bottom feeders, we have to ensure Clark can put those go for knockouts to good use.

CONTROL VS BOXER - 7. Jesus a 4? whats going on here? this guy fought Ali for gods sake. was a golden gloves amateur champ and had 44 stoppages on the bounce. This for me is all about consistency in your own ratings and universe. Choose a control rating for lets say a very good top quality contender. I have always taken this as a 10 due to so much exp with the board game. Then place everyone in catergories around that default rating.
Then be very, very consistent. Take the fighter your rating, look at what style he was best fighting against, place him where you feel in your gut he falls, major contender, minor contender, gatekeeper, journeyman, trial horse, tomato can, or maybe, championship contender, champion, long term champ, all time great, best of all time, etc, etc, make your catergories for that particular rating then go with it and be consistent. Here i feel he would be best against fellow sluggers and think he was prob a minor contender agaisnt them so want to give him a 9. To show he struggled badly against boxers I will reduce that to 7 against them. But a 4? a 4? omg lol. This is the problem with such a huge database and so many different people over a long period of time rating officially. - INCONSISTENCY. Its the big problem running through the ratings from top to bottom but its most glaringly apparent at both ends of the scale, sorry rant over.

CONTROL VS SLUGGER - 9. See above.

CHIN VS KNOCKDOWN -3. Improved by two. Hes too vulnerable at five, Again hes one of these fighters that his initial punch resistance is average but not bad but once hurt its a massive problem.

RECOVERY -2. Improved by two. He got off the canvas twice to win against Crump, His recovery powers were ok, not awful.

RESISTANCE TO CUTS -2. Improved by one, there is no evidence to suggest he was very suseptable to cuts.

KILLER INSTINCT -9. Plus one. Again lets make him play how he should.

ENDURANCE -5. Down one. Normally I would be very reluctant to reduce this past 6 but look at his record he clearly was still an amateur fighter who ran out of steam if he went past round 4. Lets show the huge glaring weakness for what it was and was a big reason in his defeat to Rademacher.

FAST STARTER -0. Improved one, Duh if anyone should have a zero here its someone like Clark.

FIGHT ON ROPES - 3. Lets show his lack of rounds experiance here as a weakness.

HITTING POWER -11. Up three. Big increase here from an eight. An eight? lets make him the power puncher he was. yes I know the opposition was crap but he still took all 44 of them out, this is still no mean feat otherwise it would have been broken by now. His one huge asset was power lets give it too him.

PUNCHING 34. improved one step. Lets make him slow yes but not criminally so.

COUNTERPUNCHING -28. Down one step, I dont normally like having a gap of more than four between punching and countering but I think its quite apt here to show his weakness and lack of experiance, he was all about punching not reacting.

PUNCHES MISSED -66. Lets make him even more wild and Gene Fullmer like and more open to counters from boxers like Ali lol.

OVERALL RATING -3. Up three. Big jump but this guy is not a zero, Ali broke his nose he didnt go out on the canvas, he was a golden gloves champ who still to this day holds that ko record, lets show some respect and show in the game what he was good at as well as his weaknessess. He should now blow out your toamto cans easily and nastily but then when he steps up in competition especially against slick boxers blow up in spectacular style especially in the later rounds, now dosent that sound familiar? mmmm

[professordp]

Thanks again! Your rating makes sense (as always!).

For a lifetime project, you should try to straighten out the lower weight classes. But not too soon, I need your talents to help me through my current uni!

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by djday45

Ok why this man is rated so weirdly in the database escapes me, I can only think due to his opposition the rater wanted to be cautious in the extreme, but it makes no sense if you take into account his amateur career.

I doubt his amateur performance is a factor; actually I would hope it weren't. Even if it were, though, I couldn't see where it would change things much. He won some local ammy tourneys, then when he went to a regional or national level, he lost . . .pretty much like his pro career.

Conditioning: Because even at 1, a there is a 10% chance of being diminished for being out of shape. If you use 3 as a standard, that's 30 percent and at that point, the guy starts to reach a point where he isn't really the guy represented by the ratings shown on screen. Certainly you could say that about guys who are worse than that and you wind up with too many KOs.
And if you have a fair share of guys being diminished that often or more, the people who choose not to use this option are pretty much going have different fighters. I think because of that, conservative is the way to go here.

CF/HP: I agree there are problems and the Db is wildly inconsistent. But I don't agree totally about the nature of the problems. I think a lot of guys near the lower tiers of the Db are too good, not too weak. This guy fought nobodys . . not even stiffs, worse than that . .41 of his opponents were winless. Clark, as rated, can go 44-3 if you match him against opponents representative of who he actually fought.

Originally Posted by djday45

OVERALL RATING -3. Up three. Big jump but this guy is not a zero, Ali broke his nose he didnt go out on the canvas, he was a golden gloves champ who still to this day holds that ko record, lets show some respect and show in the game what he was good at as well as his weaknessess.

Actually he did end the fight on the deck . . he went down three times in the span of about a minute in Round 2. As far as being a golden gloves champ, he won local events. I don’t know if that’s you mean, but he was no national factor.

The guy fought three real fighters and got blasted out three times. I use him as a 0 and think it’s fine. It’s his competition that led to his stats, not world-class power or skills.

Logically I agree with most of what you say (and usually do), but our toy is not always logical!

[djday45]

Originally Posted by Thunder

I doubt his amateur performance is a factor; actually I would hope it weren't. Even if it were, though, I couldn't see where it would change things much. He won some local ammy tourneys, then when he went to a regional or national level, he lost . . .pretty much like his pro career.

Conditioning: Because even at 1, a there is a 10% chance of being diminished for being out of shape. If you use 3 as a standard, that's 30 percent and at that point, the guy starts to reach a point where he isn't really the guy represented by the ratings shown on screen. Certainly you could say that about guys who are worse than that and you wind up with too many KOs.
And if you have a fair share of guys being diminished that often or more, the people who choose not to use this option are pretty much going have different fighters. I think because of that, conservative is the way to go here.

CF/HP: I agree there are problems and the Db is wildly inconsistent. But I don't agree totally about the nature of the problems. I think a lot of guys near the lower tiers of the Db are too good, not too weak. This guy fought nobodys . . not even stiffs, worse than that . .41 of his opponents were winless. Clark, as rated, can go 44-3 if you match him against opponents representative of who he actually fought.



Actually he did end the fight on the deck . . he went down three times in the span of about a minute in Round 2. As far as being a golden gloves champ, he won local events. I don’t know if that’s you mean, but he was no national factor.

The guy fought three real fighters and got blasted out three times. I use him as a 0 and think it’s fine. It’s his competition that led to his stats, not world-class power or skills.

Logically I agree with most of what you say (and usually do), but our toy is not always logical!

No man its totally cool, I always welcome your input as opinions will always differ and thats the joy of the sport. Thks for taking the time and effort to contribute.

[professordp]

Below: Willi Bessmanoff and George Chuvalo exchange a power shake after learning that they've been re-rated by the Day Council.

[djday45]

a strange fighter very inconsistent, but also capable of some very good performances against good opposition.

FOULS - Often. Was a dirty fighter, known to be both awkward and nasty, especially with his head.

FIGHTING OUTSIDE -3. His favourite tactic was to fight on the retreat, then close the distance unexpectedly using his southpaw stance to sow confusion.

COVER UP -2. He was sometimes ver difficult to finish off, so should at least be a 2 here.

GO FOR KNOCKOUT - 1. This was his last thing on his mind usually, he didnt have the power to make this strategy viable.

DRAW POWER -4. Had a popular following in his native Germany.

CONDITIONING -9. He was very inconsistent with the problems seemingly only in his head, any fighter who can frustrate Ali for 12 rounds but lost to a shocking 1st round ko to Dick Richardson must be deemed inconsistent.

INTELLECT - 8. Up two. Hw was quite a clever patient fighter, a counterer who befuddled fighters with his stance.

CONTROL VS BOXER - 11. He was one of those guys who did outstandingly well against boxers (Ali. Folley. Machen) but performed terribly against sluggers (Bonavena, Martin, etc). Im going to leave his slugger rating at 9 and up his boxer rating to give him a chance to last against Ali.

RECOVERY -4. Down two. His chin and recovery powers were strange, not hurt that often but when he was he was often down multiple times which usually led to his defeat.

AGRESSIVNESS - 7. Down one. More a cautious, annoying counterer playing into his southpaw style than a come foward fighter.

ENDURANCE - 9. Up one. His stamina was good and had to be as he usually played the waiting game with opponenents.

DEFENSE -2. Up one level. He had a good defense, again stemming from his cautious southpaw style, quite difficult to nail cleanly.

HITTING POWER -3. Up one. Just tweaking this slightly to bring it in line with his ko percentage, not a big hitter by any means.

PUNCHING -38. Up one Level. This brings him to average speed and accurac in my universe which I feel is about right for him.

COUNTERPUNCHING -40. Up one level. He was more a counterer due to his stance and this is reflected here.

OVERALL RATING -7. Up two. An improvement so he is now a mino threat to the title, especially against boxers who he excelled against, against punchers he will struggle quite badly as his chin and style are not up to the job against them, he should be though a top ten contender and this makes him one in the competative 60's.