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Old 07-21-2011, 10:53 PM   #61
PSUColonel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by injury log View Post
Well, if you think the AI doesn't know who the good prospects are, try to find a guy on an AI team who is a top prospect that the AI is willing to give away for next to nothing.
There are none...this is likely because the AI does know who is good, regardless of scouted ratings
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Old 07-21-2011, 11:38 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by PSUColonel View Post
There are none...this is likely because the AI does know who is good, regardless of scouted ratings
Just like the human user, the AI is not solely dependent on its scouts' perceptions, so where is the 'cheat' here, was my point.
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Old 12-21-2011, 03:23 PM   #63
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While OOTP 13 is being developed, I would like to resurrect this thread in hopes this may get a look for the future.
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Old 12-21-2011, 07:16 PM   #64
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I'm also a bit frustrated by the lack of willingness to deal with this issue for scouting leagues.

My testing a while back indicated that the algorithm is probably based on actual underlying ratings and statistics. I haven't tested in detail yet, but I suspect that the formula being used is essentially the AI %s in setup between:

Ratings
Current Year Stats
Year ago stats
2 year ago stats

Try setting ratings to zero and rely just on stats and see if that makes a difference. I'd be interested to know.
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Old 12-21-2011, 07:23 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by aewin View Post
I'm also a bit frustrated by the lack of willingness to deal with this issue for scouting leagues.

My testing a while back indicated that the algorithm is probably based on actual underlying ratings and statistics. I haven't tested in detail yet, but I suspect that the formula being used is essentially the AI %s in setup between:

Ratings
Current Year Stats
Year ago stats
2 year ago stats

Try setting ratings to zero and rely just on stats and see if that makes a difference. I'd be interested to know.

If I did that, I wouldn't use ratings either, but as I've pointed out before, with the text reports present, you may as well at least use ratings on the 2-8 scale.

The prospect list is based on actual potential ratings (as per Markus's admission)
This leads me to believe the "top players" list on the BNN homepage must be based on actual current ratings. If true, again, this is a big flaw in the game.

The other thing I still don't understand is despite the fact everyone has said BNN & OSA are separate entities (not to be confused with Baseball America) their ratings for every player are exactly identical.

Last edited by PSUColonel; 12-21-2011 at 08:42 PM.
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Old 12-22-2011, 02:21 AM   #66
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You need to understand that Markus doesn't answer things exhaustively. Saying that they are "based on actual underlying ratings" does not exclude other things being factors as well. In fact, my testing in OOTP11 pretty much proved that there is something other than actual underlying ratings at play and I think that is statistics. There have been some tweaks since OOTP11 (I haven't found a quality player excluded from the top 100 list in OOTP12 and MR/CLs and SPs with 2 pitches are now included to a much greater extent), but I think it is otherwise basically the same.

My understanding is that there is no difference in BNN and OSA ratings. The difference is that the Baseball America stuff (Top 100 [League] Prospects/Top 100 [League] Players/Top 20 [Team] Players, Player Development Page (where it specifically says stats are included and these match the Baseball America Top Prospects report) etc) is based on actual underlying ratings (and statistics) and I suspect that the algorithm is as per my post above.

In the beta forum Markus has promised me a description of the algorithm used so that it can be accurately described in the manual. I stopped testing at that point, but the description has not yet been forthcoming.

I don't disagree that the overall issue needs addressing though.

Last edited by aewin; 12-22-2011 at 02:40 AM.
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Old 12-22-2011, 09:31 AM   #67
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My point is that actual ratings shouldn't be a factor in any of these lists. If BA is going to have these lists, then they should have another set of "scouted ratings", not the actual ones.
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Old 12-22-2011, 02:26 PM   #68
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Not this all over again. It's not BNN and OSA that are different; it's Baseball America that's different from OSA. And there's no such thing as an objective ranking of prospects even when you know everyone's Potential ratings.

If you don't like the way the reports are generated, don't look at the reports. No one else seems to have a problem with this besides you.
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Old 12-22-2011, 02:35 PM   #69
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Not this all over again. It's not BNN and OSA that are different; it's Baseball America that's different from OSA. And there's no such thing as an objective ranking of prospects even when you know everyone's Potential ratings.
I know that, but BA DOES in fact use actual ratings along with stats to formulate the lists. I am merely saying that BA should be using something other than actual ratings to aid in it's rankings. That's all.
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Old 12-22-2011, 08:09 PM   #70
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No one else seems to have a problem with this besides you [PSU Colonel].
That's certainly not true. This has been raised as an issue in several online scouting leagues I am in. It is all well and good to say don't look at the reports, but how do stop other GMs looking at them??? It is a pretty major flaw for online scouting leagues. Changing the lists to annual rather than dynamic helps somewhat, but the position rankings (based on the same) seem to stay dynamic anyway so that can be used as a "cheat" to see through the scouting cloud.

One way to deal with this is to change it so that the Baseball America (and Front Office Player Development) and position rankings lists are based 100% off stats in scouting leagues.

Last edited by aewin; 12-22-2011 at 08:18 PM.
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Old 12-22-2011, 08:54 PM   #71
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That's certainly not true. This has been raised as an issue in several online scouting leagues I am in. It is all well and good to say don't look at the reports, but how do stop other GMs looking at them??? It is a pretty major flaw for online scouting leagues. Changing the lists to annual rather than dynamic helps somewhat, but the position rankings (based on the same) seem to stay dynamic anyway so that can be used as a "cheat" to see through the scouting cloud.

One way to deal with this is to change it so that the Baseball America (and Front Office Player Development) and position rankings lists are based 100% off stats in scouting leagues.

Didn't think of doing this...does it really help? I already only publish the BA prospect list annually. Does anyone know how often the "Top Players" list is updated? The problem with this is that I use scouted ratings, and will now have an advantage over the AI. Of course I have one anyway, as I can simply look at these lists. I am playing a solo league, but why should I be deprived of a feature just because it's poorly designed?

What gets me is how people around here are so quick to defend OOTP's flaws. Rather than saying "hey this really should be looked at and probably changed", it's "just ignore it". It's clear people don't much like my criticism of OOTP, but it's only in an attempt to improve the game. For some reason everyone here assumes my arguments are not valid, and they would rather continue going on using a flawed product instead of seeing issues rectified.

Last edited by PSUColonel; 12-22-2011 at 09:41 PM.
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Old 12-22-2011, 10:35 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by PSUColonel View Post
What gets me is how people around here are so quick to defend OOTP's flaws. Rather than saying "hey this really should be looked at and probably changed", it's "just ignore it". It's clear people don't much like my criticism of OOTP, but it's only in an attempt to improve the game. For some reason everyone here assumes my arguments are not valid, and they would rather continue going on using a flawed product instead of seeing issues rectified.
Part of the issue may be that you are hitting every point with a hammer, and it's sometimes difficult for others to tell whether there is a nail that you are hitting, or if you just like whacking things with your hammer.

You hammer on subjective design decisions, features that are potentially valuable to people who play in ways other than you do, and flaws all as if they are flaws, so I think some people are less inclined to give you a fair hearing when what you're posting about actually is a flaw.
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Old 12-25-2011, 03:57 PM   #73
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Didn't Markus change the Top 100 Prospects report in one of the early patches so that there's a greater 'fog of war' in what it shows now? Basically, you can't tell easily from a prospect's position in the Top 100 his true potential ratings. Not sure if a change has been made to the Top 20 prospect lists for each team, but the Top 100 definitely looks different.
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Old 12-25-2011, 05:18 PM   #74
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Ok, so this might be stupid, because calling someone out on an internet message board reeks of futility in so many ways. But after looking at the last few pages of this thread (and considering the dude's posting history), I figure: why not?

I strongly suggest to PSUColonel that he become a part of the beta-testing team for the next version of the game so that he can have an active part in getting his ideas heard directly to those whose voice and decisions have the greatest impact on the game's development. Someone so opinionated about what he thinks would be best for the game and so vocal about those opinions should put his energies to use in a constructive way and not in the scattershot manner that has been his typical posting style. Enter in discussion with the people that matter most, who care the most about the intricacies of the game and who have the ability to move towards their actual implementation or explain to you well why things are not exactly the way you'd like. Hopefully you'll find it more effective to channel your communications toward a smaller audience.

In short: The nuggets of valid points you have get lost amid the annoying tone of your complaints. Instead of this regular sniping, be the change you want to see in the game.
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Old 07-07-2013, 10:14 PM   #75
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Sorry to bump an old thread, but thought it would be better than starting a new one.

In OOTP 12, I get different rankings between my team's top 20 prospects and the BA Top 100.

For example, I have the BA #19, #27, and #33 ranked prospects.

But in my player development screen and Team top 20, they are outranked by a SP who is #88 on the BA list and another SP who's never been ranked on the top 100.

Which list is more accurate, or, to bring it back to this thread, is one list based off of "real" potential ratings and the other fogged up a touch, or dynamic based off of stats?
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