Transaction AI

[MKG1734]

Originally Posted by Fyrestorm3

I understand wanting the contact. And I wholeheartedly agree, a forum would be better than the current thread. But until we have that, what's the big deal with posting it in the thread? You can just copy/paste, and it increases the chance it's seen.

#1: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ml#post3882053

#2: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ml#post3882054

[RchW]

Originally Posted by MKG1734

Yes, there is a point. I am wanting a response from the development team. Is this information sufficient? If not, what else do they need? Because only they know if this is truly a bug, or if it is due to faulty coding logic. Only then will I know what to ask for .... a bug fix .... or a reworking of the code. Furthermore, this is exactly why a "Bug Report Forum" would do the community a LOT of good. And, from the response my post received (here: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ort-forum.html ), I'd say there is a lot of support for that statement (including from one of the developers).

The way to get a response is to file the ticket and upload your league file. Why is this difficult to get?

I think you have a legitimate issue here but the "I'm special" posture seems strange if your real goal is solving the problem.

[olivertheorem]

Originally Posted by MKG1734

In fact, the thought from olivertheorem may be the most important stated so far in this thread with regard to the original post. The AI may, in fact, offer contracts to too many players who play the same, exact position. It might, in fact, be a FA issue as much as (or maybe more than) a Transaction AI issue. Either way, there is an issue and I'll remain hopeful the development team chimes in with thoughts on what should be worked on ... a bug report ... or a request for the AI (either Transaction or Free Agent) coding / logic to be improved.

The more I think about what happened in this case, I think this may be the most likely culprit. For all I know, the AI does multiple offers at the same position frequently, it's just that most of the time they don't end up getting more than one due to other teams' bids. Next time I hit an offseason, I think I'll check some guys to see if this is happening.

[TLB1975]

Originally Posted by MKG1734

Incorrect. I can replicate this issue with any settings for AI Evaluation. Please read my former posts throughout this thread. In fact, I arrived at a "stats-only" AI Evaluation based on many of the community vets suggesting as a way to stop this issue (here: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...xplain-me.html ) from occurring. However; no settings seem able to stop the problem from that link occuring, either. This seems to indicate it is a coding issue rather than a settings issue.
.

MKG - As you know I started out on this thread agreeing with you as I have seen most if not all of what you have posted and claimed in my years playing OOTP. I share some of your frustration and can see that these are issues that are clearly bothering you.

With that being said, I'm not clear on what your motivation is behind this thread and your continued posts. Are you truly tying to change the game for the better or just venting/blowing off steam?? I say this because IMO you have not presented enough data to support your claims that this happens all the time no matter the settings. Also, you have resisted, for understandable reasons, from posting what data you currently have to the existing Bug thread as it relates to the Hosmer DFA and the two catcher signings for the Yankees. While we all agree that the existing bug thread needs substantial improvement, it is all that's available today. Again I'm not clear with what you want.

If exposing valid issues with the AI and helping stimulate a better game is what you want, then I have the following suggestions for you. First, post to the existing, imperfect, bug thread with the necessary data so at least this gets captured. Second, how about creating a separate thread and continue posting examples via screenshots of what you are seeing? Create multiple leagues, each with the different settings that you say you have experienced these issues with, sim ahead, and then post what your seeing? From my eyes, I see the same things you do, however they just aren't showing up with the same frequency in my universe as you are experiencing. Also, I have probably become more immune to them and for my own enjoyment, have worked around them. I some ways, I haven't done my part to capture, and report these issues as I hope you are intending to do.

But, if your intention is to just vent and blow off frustration, that's ok too. There's room for that here as well. It can be a truly frustrating game at times!! Just be aware that doing that can and will bring on both empathetic and critical comments. GL

[Matt Arnold]

The case listed in the opening post, that is definitely a bug. The AI shouldn't sign two guys to big deals to play the same position, for sure. I can't say for sure, but sounds like for whatever reason the AI got offers out to 2 guys at once, and kind of got screwed when they both accepted.

Why this happened? Let me say that the roster logic is pretty much the hardest part of the game to get right. We will always work to improve things, but it's nearly impossible to catch every case. It will never be perfect, but don't for a second believe that we ignore flaws in the "core" game, like game and roster AI decisions.

[Trebro]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

The case listed in the opening post, that is definitely a bug. The AI shouldn't sign two guys to big deals to play the same position, for sure. I can't say for sure, but sounds like for whatever reason the AI got offers out to 2 guys at once, and kind of got screwed when they both accepted.

Why this happened? Let me say that the roster logic is pretty much the hardest part of the game to get right. We will always work to improve things, but it's nearly impossible to catch every case. It will never be perfect, but don't for a second believe that we ignore flaws in the "core" game, like game and roster AI decisions.

Matt, would it be possible to have the AI do the following:

If player need at position = 1, make offer

Once player need at position = 0:
check outstanding offers
if other offer is to position rank <= 25, cancel offer
if other offer to to position rank >25, retain offer

I have no idea how hard that might be, and of course, it would cause another set of issues (some teams might want to overpay at a certain position), but in general, I think if there was a way to cancel other outstanding offers once a top 25 player is landed (or maybe top 15? I dunno), it would prevent this and probably be fairly realistic.

[MKG1734]

Originally Posted by TLB1975

MKG - As you know I started out on this thread agreeing with you as I have seen most if not all of what you have posted and claimed in my years playing OOTP. I share some of your frustration and can see that these are issues that are clearly bothering you.

With that being said, I'm not clear on what your motivation is behind this thread and your continued posts.

If exposing valid issues with the AI and helping stimulate a better game is what you want, then I have the following suggestions for you. First, post to the existing, imperfect, bug thread with the necessary data so at least this gets captured.

This has already been completed.

Second, how about creating a separate thread and continue posting examples via screenshots of what you are seeing? Create multiple leagues, each with the different settings that you say you have experienced these issues with, sim ahead, and then post what your seeing?

Well, most of the issue is simply time. I work, have a fiance, etc., etc. Time essentially is the biggest inhibitor of this.

From my eyes, I see the same things you do, however they just aren't showing up with the same frequency in my universe as you are experiencing. Also, I have probably become more immune to them and for my own enjoyment, have worked around them. I some ways, I haven't done my part to capture, and report these issues as I hope you are intending to do.

But, if your intention is to just vent and blow off frustration, that's ok too. There's room for that here as well. It can be a truly frustrating game at times!! Just be aware that doing that can and will bring on both empathetic and critical comments. GL

Thank you for your comments. I am not really trying to blow off steam. I'd really, really like to play the game and see these issues (especially the thread regarding Hosmer) less frequently. Like I said, I paid for the game, too. And I do enjoy it. It is disheartening to me when I put hours into the game and see issues no matter what settings I try. I continue to run into these same problems despite actively seeking community advice to try to eliminate them (check my post history ... I've repeatedly inquired about 'optimizing' the AI to produce the most enjoyable game for me).

Then, I check this forum and I see people posting these types of issues but providing no 'photo proof.' So ... I figured after seeing it in my league (again), I would try to help by providing screenshots of what I'm seeing. That was the main reasoning behind my idea for the Bug Report Forum. That would provide a setting where an issue could be noted and then piggy-backed on if others see it as well.

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

The case listed in the opening post, that is definitely a bug. The AI shouldn't sign two guys to big deals to play the same position, for sure. I can't say for sure, but sounds like for whatever reason the AI got offers out to 2 guys at once, and kind of got screwed when they both accepted.

Why this happened? Let me say that the roster logic is pretty much the hardest part of the game to get right. We will always work to improve things, but it's nearly impossible to catch every case. It will never be perfect, but don't for a second believe that we ignore flaws in the "core" game, like game and roster AI decisions.

Matt ... is there anything I can provide from this game which would help you find the culprit causing the issue so that you can have a better chance of eliminating it? You say ... "I can't say for sure" .... I say .... is there anything that would help you say for sure in this situation? Or, anything I can provide moving forward?

Furthermore ... is there anything I can provide that would help you with the situation you commented on and stated was not working properly in this thread, as well: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ml#post3880313

[Matt Arnold]

Originally Posted by Trebro

Matt, would it be possible to have the AI do the following:

If player need at position = 1, make offer

Once player need at position = 0:
check outstanding offers
if other offer is to position rank <= 25, cancel offer
if other offer to to position rank >25, retain offer

I have no idea how hard that might be, and of course, it would cause another set of issues (some teams might want to overpay at a certain position), but in general, I think if there was a way to cancel other outstanding offers once a top 25 player is landed (or maybe top 15? I dunno), it would prevent this and probably be fairly realistic.

Trust me, the logic is way more complicated than that, but yeah, there's definitely stuff that we can do to make sure that the AI doesn't have multiple offers to fill the same spot, or if they do, to make sure that only one of them accepts.

[Matt Arnold]

Originally Posted by MKG1734

Matt ... is there anything I can provide from this game which would help you find the culprit causing the issue so that you can have a better chance at eliminating it? You say ... "I can't say for sure" .... I say .... is there anything that would help you say for sure in this situation? Or, anything I can provide moving forward?

If you've seen multiple teams do this in your league, then having the files could show something in the league setup that caused it. But otherwise, not really. In general, it doesn't hurt to provide a league file if you want, but for an issue like this, having it likely won't help too much. If you had a file from right before the off-season this happened in, that would be perfect, but after the fact it's hard to figure out these issues.

We likely won't be able to look into the roster AI before the summer patch, but will certainly look through it before next year. Knowing that things like this can happen is useful to us in fixing them, though.

[MKG1734]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

If you've seen multiple teams do this in your league, then having the files could show something in the league setup that caused it. But otherwise, not really. In general, it doesn't hurt to provide a league file if you want, but for an issue like this, having it likely won't help too much. If you had a file from right before the off-season this happened in, that would be perfect, but after the fact it's hard to figure out these issues.

We likely won't be able to look into the roster AI before the summer patch, but will certainly look through it before next year. Knowing that things like this can happen is useful to us in fixing them, though.

Thank you for the reply. Hopefully this helps in the elimination of this moving forward.

Furthermore ... is there anything I can provide that would help you with the situation you commented on and stated was not working properly in this thread, as well: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ml#post3880313

[ra7c7er]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

Trust me, the logic is way more complicated than that, but yeah, there's definitely stuff that we can do to make sure that the AI doesn't have multiple offers to fill the same spot, or if they do, to make sure that only one of them accepts.

That's not exactly the best way to do it. Teams should make multiple offers. Human players do all the time no reason the AI shouldn't give itself the same shot. If anything just make the AI cancel the second offer after the first as been accepted. Just like a human player does. Perhaps throwing something in that the AI can't accept more then offer at the same position a day per team. Giving precedence to the best player, oldest offer, or something. That would be a better way to go.

The biggest reason FA signings in games like Madden are easy is because EA went the "AI only offers one contract at a position at a time" like what you mentioned doing.

[Matt Arnold]

Originally Posted by ra7c7er

That's not exactly the best way to do it. Teams should make multiple offers. Human players do all the time no reason the AI shouldn't give itself the same shot. If anything just make the AI cancel the second offer after the first as been accepted. Just like a human player does. Perhaps throwing something in that the AI can't accept more then offer at the same position a day per team. Giving precedence to the best player, oldest offer, or something. That would be a better way to go.

The biggest reason FA signings in games like Madden are easy is because EA went the "AI only offers one contract at a position at a time" like what you mentioned doing.

Yeah, good point, for sure. But then you have to be careful the AI doesn't go overboard in cancelling offers at the last minute either, as I'm sure that would cause other problems. Did I not say that roster AI was challenging?

[ra7c7er]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

Yeah, good point, for sure. But then you have to be careful the AI doesn't go overboard in cancelling offers at the last minute either, as I'm sure that would cause other problems. Did I not say that roster AI was challenging?

Believe me I know. I was a part time beta tester for 6 years. The line between to easy to hard and to WTF is very fine.

[Toast]

Originally Posted by RchW

So you reserve the right to whine but make excuses when asked to report the bug through long established channels. Is there a point to this other than posturing?

Edit: here is the link.

OOTP Developments - Powered by Kayako Help Desk Software

Typical.

Toast

[RchW]

Originally Posted by Toast

Typical.

Toast

Do you have any useful contribution to make?

[MKG1734]

Originally Posted by RchW

Do you have any useful contribution to make?

In the end, you claiming that I was posturing was uncalled for and provided just as little contribution as the post to which you replied to above. I didn't even need to make a bug report. And posting what I posted in the original post was all that was required. As I stated previously, I was waiting for confirmation from the development team. It was received, noted, and hopefully will be resolved ... all without your unnecessary comment claiming that I was 'posturing'

Ridiculous how some people act on this board. I have now posted 4 different 'bugs' which have been identified by the development staff as 'bugs.' And each time, there has been some level of aggression towards the posts. Accept that, yes, the 'beta testers' have missed out on some pretty significant issues....since I see these issues in each league (of all different types and settings) that I've ever played.

Chill out. I'm trying to help. And, again, it appears the game may be improved.

Furthermore ... its clear that Toast just likes to rattle your cage. And you take the bait every....single....time.

The thread should be settled now. The development team indicated they are now aware of the issue and have claimed a plan to work on it for OOTP17.

Progress.

[Toast]

Originally Posted by MKG1734

In the end, you claiming that I was posturing was uncalled for and provided just as little contribution as the post to which you replied to above. I didn't even need to make a bug report. And posting what I posted in the original post was all that was required. As I stated previously, I was waiting for confirmation from the development team. It was received, noted, and hopefully will be resolved ... all without your unnecessary comment claiming that I was 'posturing'

Ridiculous how some people act on this board. I have now posted 4 different 'bugs' which have been identified by the development staff as 'bugs.' And each time, there has been some level of aggression towards the posts. Accept that, yes, the 'beta testers' have missed out on some pretty significant issues....since I see these issues in each league (of all different types and settings) that I've ever played.

Chill out. I'm trying to help. And, again, it appears the game may be improved.

Furthermore ... its clear that Toast just likes to rattle your cage. And you take the bait every....single....time.

The thread should be settled now. The development team indicated they are now aware of the issue and have claimed a plan to work on it for OOTP17.

Progress.

I'm not trying to rattle anybody's cage but I've seen many times on this board when someone brings up an observation or question that is seen by some to run against the grain it is often met with disrespect and ridicule.

Thanks for your post and to a developer's response for we all want OOTP to be the best it can possibly be.

Toast

[Fyrestorm3]

EDIT: You know what, best not to get involved. Something tells me this is gonna get out of hand soon.

[Trebro]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

Trust me, the logic is way more complicated than that, but yeah, there's definitely stuff that we can do to make sure that the AI doesn't have multiple offers to fill the same spot, or if they do, to make sure that only one of them accepts.

I didn't mean to imply it was that simple, sorry if it came across that way. I was going for simplicity in my example, so as to not bog it down. Was trying to think what it would look like on the most reduced level and that was what came into my head.

I could barely handle basic stuff in C--can't even begin to imagine what OOTP looks like under the hood.

[olivertheorem]

Matt, glad to hear that you'll try to address this next year.

Thing with having the AI cancel offers once one is accepted...what happens if they both accept the same day! Like you said, it's a tough nut to crack. I'm convinced you, Markus, and company will give it your best shot, as always.