Dumbest article ever in regards to OOTP

[Henric]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

There are women trainers and coaches IRL. Being realistic would be the point.

That is of course a given, and was besides my point.

[Henric]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

I don't think we're particularly close to having sample sizes anywhere near large enough to be able to track stuff like baseball talent development in women in their 20s and 30s, so assuming that they'd develop in the same general way as men of the same age (all relatively speaking of course) is probably a good base to start from. It seems like a relatively minor issue in the grand scheme of things...

This is a very interesting point and one worthy of proper research. I say this as a hockey coach for both boys and girls. They certainly provide differing challenges in terms of coaching as well as physical training. It's very important for women/girl hockey players to start early with off-ice physical training for example. It's important for boys as well, but girls generally needs to start earlier in my experience.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

And there would have to be twice as many first-name files.

But the problem goes beyond just pronouns and names and facegens. There isn't enough data out there to create a development model for women baseball players. We just don't know how a 19-year-old female prospect will develop in five or ten or fifteen years because there hasn't been a 19-year-old female prospect in the past whose stats we can look at as a comparison.

Right now, the only development model that the game has is based on how men develop as players, so putting a woman into the game would mean that she would develop like a man, which isn't realistic.

I'd love to have the ability to recreate the AAGPBL, but incorporating women into the game would be really complicated and involve a lot more than just changing a few pronouns. And, in the end, it might sell a couple dozen extra units. Hardly worth it from a game-development standpoint.

This subject came up a few years ago and this was exactly my point. The response I got from some was "not a problem we just want names, face gens. I don't think this is a huge ask, especially with, as some noted here, trainers and others showing up IRL.

The problem is once they add that some will now want more realism and a female player developing differently than a male. Hard coded "he\him " etc. changed. I want a realistic 40's style women's league and guess what, all of the research needed so it plays as accurately as OOTP's MLB game. I want co-ed leagues and please make it realistic. etc. In the end in comes down to time to code vs usage.

Here take a trip down memory lane to the v18 discussion....
https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...ghlight=female

[joefromchicago]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

I don't think we're particularly close to having sample sizes anywhere near large enough to be able to track stuff like baseball talent development in women in their 20s and 30s, so assuming that they'd develop in the same general way as men of the same age (all relatively speaking of course) is probably a good base to start from. It seems like a relatively minor issue in the grand scheme of things...

No, actually it's a major issue. First, I don't think it's safe to say that women develop as baseball players in the same way that men do, for the very simple reason that we don't have any data to support that conclusion. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. We just don't know. But to say "we can assume that they do" is unwarranted.

But suppose we make that assumption that "they'd develop in the same general way as men of the same age (all relatively speaking of course)," what do you mean by "all relatively speaking"? Are you saying that women will develop like men, except differently? What modifier would you apply to the female player-development model? What data would you look at to make that determination? And if you're suggesting that women develop like men, except that they'd be worse, then aren't you contradicting the point in the article that the only thing holding back women from pursuing baseball is the "patriarchy?"

OOTP is a data-based game. That's its niche. Even fictional players are governed by real-world data. I'm all in favor of women playing major-league baseball, but until the developers get some data that they can use, I don't see much point in making it all up.

[Sizeman21]

Ya this article is a really bad take. PC culture at it again. While I'm all for women in sports and equal pay and all of that, writing a article asking for inclusion of women in a sport that has been dominated by men the last 150 years is not really the way to do it.

Try the WNBA or WPGA or women's soccer or volleyball or almost any other sport. Baseball was started by gentlemen wanting to keep women off the field so the men could have their time after a hard day of work. The culture of this sort hasn't really budged for gender rights in the course of the sports history. I don't think it will much.

[joefromchicago]

Originally Posted by Sweed

Here take a trip down memory lane to the v18 discussion....
https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...ghlight=female

It's a well-trodden path. I mentioned the same thing in 2016: https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...d.php?t=264612

[endgame]

I haven’t read the article but my guess is one of the results the author was hoping for would be conversations like this start to happen. That being the case, mission accomplished eh?

[RchW]

I'm laughing at the date today April 1 and at those outraged on either side.

[chazzycat]

Originally Posted by RchW

I'm laughing at the date today April 1 and at those outraged on either side.

It was published yesterday though, and does not come off as satirical to me.

Honestly though. Why not put a "League of Their Own" type historical league in the game? It's a valid point, we can manage some pretty obscure leagues...it wouldn't hurt to have that.

About female coaches though, the article is just flat-out wrong. I already hired one on my sim, so it's definitely a thing. That Giants coach the author mentions as an example simply isn't included in the game, because her job title is not one of the coaching positions that the game includes. It just doesn't go that deep to all the assistant coaches. It has nothing to do with her gender.

[RchW]

I'm concerned about catching a virus which can kill people my age (65) easily. My daughter is a nurse and they don't have sufficient/correct PPE in a supposed first world country to protect me and her properly.

So on a long list of things to be outraged about this is laughable.

[ChrisJNelson]

Having the option for women in the game would be good, no question. Baseball Mogul, which I grew up playing before I knew the "glory" of OOTP, has always had women. But a few points on the subject:

1. Just because it's something that would be nice for the game to have doesn't mean it's something the developers should put an immense amount of effort into ASAP. We don't have switch-pitchers either, because they are so minimally-represented in real-life it's not worth the legwork on the front-end. We saw what happened when Ohtani came to the majors--they saw the need for two-way players and added it.
2. I hate to break it to any fellow videogame players, but everything we're doing is just pretend. Everything. We're not the GM of the Yankees or a Jedi or a superhero. So if you wanna make a female player, then do it and pretend. Give them a female name. Chance their size to female size. Add a female facegen. The game is a freaking sim--we're all pretending the whole time. So if you wanna pretend your third baseman is a girl, then do it.

I am about as socially liberal as it gets personally, and I am all for equality. I understand the value of representation and the impact that has on kids. But we also need to be aware of the practicality of implementing things like this into a game. It's doable, but it's not the flip of a switch, and a lot of other things take priority.

[RchW]

^^gets it^^

[chazzycat]

I agree with that, it's not the top priority or anything. And I'm certainly far from "outraged" myself. Just saying there is a shred of truth there. The average American is much more likely to have heard of "League of their Own" than say, Honkbal Hoofdklasse. It could be a good way to grow the user base. I know I've never seen a female post on these forums...or discord...

[CBeisbol]

A lot of people, guys I assume, making excuses as to why women shouldn't be in the game while we can create out of thin air just about any league in any place that we want.

As to the discussion about how women might develop, does the game also assume that if I create a league in Tuvalu the players will develop like major league baseball players. That seems as unrealistic as assuming that women would develop like men.

[andyhdz]

We should have female owners as well.

[tehsuigi]

Originally Posted by andyhdz

We should have female owners as well.

Where is Marge Schott when you need her?

[rudel.dietrich]

Female pronouns should be added along with a gender setting. There are enough GMs, front office people, coaches and trainers to justify it.

FaceGen would be a bit more difficult since OOTP is at the mercy of facegen tech. They have trouble enough with male faces.

As for players, I would not be against adding them.
With enough time and knowledge of the core engine file and settings you can make any league you want including softball leagues that are pretty statistically accurate.

Football Manager added the option of players female managers many versions ago and it got the usual misogynist backlash that is to be expected.
Now it is just another part of the game.
And to be honest it being a part of the game does not really make it that different. The profile picture is a bit different and the pro nouns used to address you are different and that is it.

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by ChrisJNelson

2. I hate to break it to any fellow videogame players, but everything we're doing is just pretend. Everything. We're not the GM of the Yankees or a Jedi or a superhero. So if you wanna make a female player, then do it and pretend. Give them a female name. Chance their size to female size. Add a female facegen. The game is a freaking sim--we're all pretending the whole time. So if you wanna pretend your third baseman is a girl, then do it.

Venn diagram: people who think it's a waste of time/not that important/etc to include female players, etc in the game and people who'd lose their **** if all the players in the game were female (or not white).

[qcbandits]

I could care less if they add female players or what not. I thought the article was dumb and shared it bc of the reaction of the article's author. The supposed anger at the female coaches being left out of a game that doesn't even support the positions they hold. So yes they are not in the game but neither are their male counterparts on other teams. So the author needs to understand it has zero to do with those coaches being female

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by qcbandits

I could care less if they add female players.

Good. I also think that it matters. Since, you know, there are female baseball players.

I thought the article was dumb and shared it bc of the reaction of the article's author. The supposed anger at the female coaches being left out of a game that doesn't even support the positions they hold. So yes they are not in the game but neither are their male counterparts on other teams. So the author needs to understand it has zero to do with those coaches being female

So, you disagreed with one part of the article, and because of that it's the "dumbest article ever"?

I don't believe this is only about the coaches for you

And where did you get "supposed anger" from?