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OOTP 21 - General Discussions Everything about the brand new version of Out of the Park Baseball - officially licensed by MLB and the MLBPA. |
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04-01-2020, 02:27 AM | #1 |
Minors (Triple A)
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 202
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Who you got for MVP? (Shades of 2012)
Both players played on the same team that won a league best 111 games while leading the league in runs scored. Player 1 hits fourth, Player 2 hits second. Any stat with an asterisk next to it means they lead the league.
Player 1 156 GP, .350*/.441/.738*, 200 wRC+*, 62HR*, 153RBI*, 122R, 0/0 SB, 9.5WAR. Slightly below average defense at 1B (-2.1 ZR) Player 2 158 GP, .338/.454*/.597, 174wRC+, 42HR, 91RBI, 143R*, 24/25 SB, 11.3WAR*. Above average defense at shortstop (+6.1 ZR) The vote ended up being unanimous (surprised me) but I won't say for who. Basically you have a triple crown winning bat-only first baseman vs a lesser but still elite hitting SS who also provides value as a runner and defender. Last edited by greenOak; 04-01-2020 at 02:30 AM. |
04-01-2020, 04:27 AM | #2 |
All Star Reserve
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Posts: 579
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Player 1 easy
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04-01-2020, 04:31 AM | #3 | |
Minors (Triple A)
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 218
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Quote:
__________________
“The more you play baseball, the less depends on your athletic ability. It’s a mental war more than anything.” – Alex Rodriguez |
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04-01-2020, 04:50 AM | #4 |
All Star Reserve
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MVP is an offensive award, you win a Triple Crown you're winning it
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04-01-2020, 08:24 AM | #5 |
Bat Boy
Join Date: Mar 2020
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If these were two real players, player one wins because the HRs and RBIs get all the attention and how do you not give it to the Triple Crown winner.
That said, I would value player two higher if I had to choose between the two who I sign long term because of the value he brings to generate runs scored and keep runs off the board defensively. |
04-01-2020, 05:59 PM | #6 |
All Star Starter
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Location: Fresno, CA by way of Texas
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Stud first baseman come and go but an elite SS who can field and hit? Wow. That's why his WAR is higher.
Last edited by andyhdz; 04-01-2020 at 06:01 PM. |
04-01-2020, 06:11 PM | #7 | |
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With the given information, player 2, easily.
A two WAR difference is significant. I mean, it's not Quote:
bbwaa.com/voting-faq/ |
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04-01-2020, 06:22 PM | #8 |
Major Leagues
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Posts: 300
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Player 2. The WAR is 2 points higher for a reason.
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04-02-2020, 12:50 AM | #9 |
All Star Starter
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War
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04-02-2020, 01:05 AM | #10 | ||
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Quote:
https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/20...ird-order-wins Quote:
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04-02-2020, 02:01 AM | #11 |
Minors (Triple A)
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 202
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Yeah so player 1 won unanimously. I expected he would win since ootp much like real life shows a strong bias against swiss-army knife type players in voting (Cabrera over Trout, Howard over Utley). I’m partial to player 2 though for reasons already mentioned.
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04-02-2020, 02:03 AM | #12 |
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WRC+ is everything. SS has more War because his position is harder it is miss leading .
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04-02-2020, 02:13 AM | #13 |
Minors (Triple A)
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 202
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Well yeah because he’s more valuable playing a harder position. It’s easy to grab a 120wRC+ first baseman for near nothing, but you’ll have to pay through the roof for a 120 wRC+ shortstop.
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04-02-2020, 02:42 AM | #14 | |
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Quote:
Look at Alonso last Year his WRC+ is like 145 but WAR is like a 4.8. And that was a monster 1b year. Your 1b WRC+ is 200 that's 20pts higher than Trout who had a 8.6 WAR and your 1b had a 9.5 WAR. Its staggering how a 1b was able to put up such a high war. It is a ungodly. It's 2x to 3x time more than a league leading 1b. While leading SS can usually get around 8.x. |
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04-02-2020, 02:54 AM | #15 | ||
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Quote:
Defense exists I'd tell you to go watch a game, but there are none Quote:
So, yeah this first baseman was great with the bat But the SS was also great with the bat, and with the glove, and, it looks like given the info we have, on the bases. And the sum of this greatnesses was more than the first baseman's greatness with just the bat. |
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04-02-2020, 02:58 AM | #16 |
Minors (Triple A)
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 202
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List of 1B who have hit 7+ fWAR since 2000:
Albert Pujols (x7) Todd Helton (x3) Jason Giambi (x2) Lance Berkman Carlos Delgado Jim Thome Joey Votto Paul Goldschmidt Chris Davis Derrek Lee List of SS who have hit 7+ fWAR since 2000: Alex Rodriguez (x4) Hanley Ramirez (x2) Rich Aurilia Nomar Garciaparra Francisco Lindor Marcus Semien Alex Bregman If it's so hard for first baseman to rack up WAR why have there been fewer shortstop to post such high WAR seasons? This is true throughout history as well. Going back to 1900 there have been 64 seasons of 7+ WAR from shortstops while there have been 81 from first baseman. Think of this way. Assume all players are average defensively for their position. You can have a 120 wRC+ shortstop and a replacement level firstbaseman, or a 120wRC+ first baseman and a replacement level shortstop. You would have to be a fool to not choose the first option. In the first scenario you'll end up with two above average hitters, while in the second scenario you'll end up with an above average hitter and a dreadful hitter. Ergo, the 120 wRC+ shortstop is more valuable than the 120 wRC+ first baseman. Last edited by greenOak; 04-02-2020 at 02:59 AM. |
04-02-2020, 03:11 AM | #17 |
Minors (Rookie Ball)
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04-02-2020, 03:40 AM | #18 | |
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Quote:
Hopefully, you said AS How about 150 wRC+ SS and 150 wRC+ 1B? 180? 200? Hopefully you always picked the SS. Why? Because you know the SS's defense is more valuable than the 1B's. Well, it appears in this instance, that the SS's defense was enough better to make up for the 1B man's extra hitting, One WAR is about 10 runs. So the SS was about 8 runs better than the 1B. We can see, right away that 8 of those runs are defense. The SS was +6 runs the 1B was -2. Those numbers are compared to an average SS and average 1B We've already seen that an average SS is more valuable than an average 1B. Hjow much more. The accepted value is 20 runs. So, you add those 20 runs and we're at 28 runs. The SS is, considering only defense, 28 runs better than the 1B. Now, you have to show that the 1B was 28 runs better offensively than the SS. 28 runs is about the same difference as Alex Bregman (60 runs and a 168 wRC+) and JD Martinez (32.5 runs and a 139 wRC+) - with Bregman having a few more PA's. They had a difference of 29 points of wRC+. Well, in the example, the difference between the 1B's and the SS's wRC+ was a similar, but slightly less 26 points of wRC+. So, we can see, that the 1B's hitting probably doesn't cover the 28 run deficit he's in after looking at defense, especially, since it's likely the SS had more PA's since the SS hit higher in the order and had more games. But, the SS has yet another advantage. Base running. We don't know much about the base running of these two players. Only that the SS was a very successful base stealer the first baseman did not add value through base stealing. In 2019, according to FanGraph's, a stolen base was worth .2 runs and a caught stealing was worth -.4 runs. Using those numbers the SS's stolen bases were worth and additional 4.8 runs and the caught stealing cost .4 runs, so, the SS's base stealing netted an extra 4.4 runs. Stealing isn't the only part of base running, and we know nothing about how these two players performed on the bases outside of stealing, but, we can make a reasonable assumption that the SS who stole 24 of 25 bases provided more base running value than the 1B who stole 0 bases. We've seen that the SS had 28 additional defensive runs The first baseman had less than 28 runs due to his bat. The SS had an additional 4 runs due to base stealing, And likely had additional runs due to non-stealing base running. The SS, despite being a lessor hitter, provided more on the field than the 1Bman. Last edited by CBeisbol; 04-02-2020 at 03:44 AM. |
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