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Old 09-14-2019, 06:16 PM   #41
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Has this thread run its course yet?
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Old 09-14-2019, 06:18 PM   #42
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Has this thread run its course yet?

Hasn't been too confrontational. It's people expressing their views.....I see no reason to lock it unless things get nasty.
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Old 09-14-2019, 06:24 PM   #43
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To me games have rules, society has laws.

If I see someone breaking into my neighbors car in clear violation of the rules/law am I the morality police for calling the cops?

Red, I have no idea why you used that term.

If you call the cops, no, you're doing your civic duty. As you would if you believe someone is cheating and use the report button. That's what it's there for.
However, you don't have to take a picture of the person breaking into the car, post it on Facebook and other social media outlets to show how great a neighbor you are. Because the person that you are seeing breaking into the car could be (even if unlikely) given the permission by your neighbor to do so...it's up to the police and authorities to decide whether a criminal act was committed or not...just like it is for the devs to decide if someone is cheating or if they are running a theme team. It's not for the masses on the forums to decide after someone posted a screenshot.

That's what the morality/thought police is...someone that takes it upon themselves to try to "bring people to justice", usually for an audience to see, when they do not have the authority/power to do so.
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Old 09-14-2019, 06:32 PM   #44
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If you call the cops, no, you're doing your civic duty. As you would if you believe someone is cheating and use the report button. That's what it's there for.
However, you don't have to take a picture of the person breaking into the car, post it on Facebook and other social media outlets to show how great a neighbor you are. Because the person that you are seeing breaking into the car could be (even if unlikely) given the permission by your neighbor to do so...it's up to the police and authorities to decide whether a criminal act was committed or not...just like it is for the devs to decide if someone is cheating or if they are running a theme team. It's not for the masses on the forums to decide after someone posted a screenshot.

That's what the morality/thought police is...someone that takes it upon themselves to try to "bring people to justice", usually for an audience to see, when they do not have the authority/power to do so.

Give me a break. I agree the button is the way to go but the outrage here seems rather contrived. The only screen shots I've seen so were obvious a dog could reason out what was happening.
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Old 09-14-2019, 06:56 PM   #45
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Give me a break. I agree the button is the way to go but the outrage here seems rather contrived. The only screen shots I've seen so were obvious a dog could reason out what was happening.
Of course it seems contrived to you. You haven't been publicly accused of cheating, nor are you being told consistently that your interpretation of the TOS and what constitutes cheating is wrong. Your perspective causes you to understand this issue in a way that is rather different from people like me. I don't expect you to share my frustration per se, but it would be nice if you did not summarily dismiss it.

https://twitter.com/nathanwpyle/stat...035649?lang=en
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Old 09-14-2019, 07:07 PM   #46
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Of course it seems contrived to you. You haven't been publicly accused of cheating, nor are you being told consistently that your interpretation of the TOS and what constitutes cheating is wrong. Your perspective causes you to understand this issue in a way that is rather different from people like me. I don't expect you to share my frustration per se, but it would be nice if you did not summarily dismiss it.

https://twitter.com/nathanwpyle/stat...035649?lang=en
It isn't up to me to interpret it, or you for that matter. I wouldn't ever be accused of it because I try and win. To me the NBA should have done something with the Sixers recently and the NFL with the sham the Dolphins are providing. I do understand being a free team and being trapped by being just good enough to stay but not nearly good enough to win.

I honestly understand that. Either pry open that wallet or be subtle. The people being called out are flat out making a mockery of the entire game.
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Old 09-14-2019, 07:46 PM   #47
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Either pry open that wallet or be subtle.
That's the point. There shouldn't be any necessity to be subtle. The MLB baseball rules are 158 pages long. Why? To eliminate as many questionable decisions as possible. The ToS addressing "tanking" consists of the following...

"deliberately lose" ... "or otherwise fail to make a good-faith effort to play the game in a fashion intended to win via fair gameplay according to the intended operation of the game."

That's it. Taken at its most basic description, anything other than playing your best 25 players breaks the rules - yet we are told "it depends".

Why wouldn't one expect to see constant questions about how others play the game?

Just the fact people say "be subtle" suggests they know they are doing something not "in a fashion intended to win via fair gameplay".

I'm not trying to be a butthead here, but it only makes sense that the definition of "tanking" needs to be either better explained or coded into the game.
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Old 09-14-2019, 07:52 PM   #48
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That's the point. There shouldn't be any necessity to be subtle. The MLB baseball rules are 158 pages long. Why? To eliminate as many questionable decisions as possible. The ToS addressing "tanking" consists of the following...

"deliberately lose" ... "or otherwise fail to make a good-faith effort to play the game in a fashion intended to win via fair gameplay according to the intended operation of the game."

That's it. Taken at its most basic description, anything other than playing your best 25 players breaks the rules - yet we are told "it depends".

Why wouldn't one expect to see constant questions about how others play the game?

Just the fact people say "be subtle" suggests they know they are doing something not "in a fashion intended to win via fair gameplay".

I'm not trying to be a butthead here, but it only makes sense that the definition of "tanking" needs to be either better explained or coded into the game.

Being coded into the game would be cool. I still contend the "This is black and white" crowd should use whatever common sense they have.
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Old 09-14-2019, 08:54 PM   #49
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I don't think I've seen even a single instance of a team tanking posted here that wasn't unbelievably egregious. I'm talking multiple perfects and several diamonds on the bench and a lineup filled exclusively with bronze and iron players for a team that is alternating between low levels-- a scenario that is so obviously tanking as to be absurd and even worth pointing out on the forum so everyone can have a laugh. It's like if someone had a video of a student cheating on a test, in which the attempt to cheat was playing an audio recording of the answers at full volume. It's not like people are snap-judging every team with a reasonable reserve roster as tanking. It's not like false reports of tanking are a problem, or that reports of non-tanking teams are a problem. This is such a non-issue, that there are people defending these absolutely egregious, ridiculous, poorly hidden tankers is just unthinkable to me.

If you want to train some players, fine. Hell, if you're near the relegation line and you want to sub in a few trained players maybe even hoping to be relegated, that's fine too. In fact, so long as you don't obviously, egregiously tank year after year, I don't particularly care. I play at Perfect, this issue doesn't affect me. It's only those ridiculous edge cases that are worth having a laugh over, precisely because they're so ridiculous and poorly veiled attempts at cheating the system.
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Old 09-14-2019, 10:58 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HRBaker View Post
The ToS addressing "tanking" consists of the following...

"deliberately lose" ... "or otherwise fail to make a good-faith effort to play the game in a fashion intended to win via fair gameplay according to the intended operation of the game."
Pretty clear and understandable to me.
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Old 09-15-2019, 12:06 PM   #51
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Pretty clear and understandable to me.
Not trying to be a pain Orcin, but what I have to conclude from your response is your one of the ones that believes doing anything but playing your best 25 players is illegal - meaning there is no flexibility in the game - and the that the Devs have already broken their own rules.

Is that correct?
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Old 09-15-2019, 01:08 PM   #52
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Not trying to be a pain Orcin, but what I have to conclude from your response is your one of the ones that believes doing anything but playing your best 25 players is illegal - meaning there is no flexibility in the game - and the that the Devs have already broken their own rules.

Is that correct?
No, not at all. I believe that trying to lose on purpose is illegal, because that is precisely what the ToS says.

1) Training someone at one or two positions to improve your team while playing your best players at the other positions is not trying to lose. Therefore, it is not illegal.

2) Gradually transitioning from a normal team to a theme team is not trying to lose. Therefore, it is not illegal.

3) Selling your best two players to raise funds for different players while playing your remaining best players is not trying to lose. Therefore, it is not illegal.

4) Keeping all of your diamond and perfect cards inactive while playing a lineup of iron cards in Perfect Leagues IS clearly trying to lose and therefore illegal.

See how easy this is?
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Old 09-15-2019, 04:22 PM   #53
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For the life of me, I can't understand why anyone who wants a better game would argue about some code that would better define tanking.

Until the game rules are tightened up, I'll return back to the Classic version.
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Old 09-15-2019, 05:20 PM   #54
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No, not at all. I believe that trying to lose on purpose is illegal, because that is precisely what the ToS says.

1) Training someone at one or two positions to improve your team while playing your best players at the other positions is not trying to lose. Therefore, it is not illegal.

2) Gradually transitioning from a normal team to a theme team is not trying to lose. Therefore, it is not illegal.

3) Selling your best two players to raise funds for different players while playing your remaining best players is not trying to lose. Therefore, it is not illegal.

4) Keeping all of your diamond and perfect cards inactive while playing a lineup of iron cards in Perfect Leagues IS clearly trying to lose and therefore illegal.

See how easy this is?
You sure have a very clearly defined interpretation of the TOS, especially for someone who thinks the interpretation of the community at large doesn't matter.

And I wish it were that easy. Maybe then I wouldn't have ever been accused of cheating like I was...
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Old 09-15-2019, 05:29 PM   #55
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You sure have a very clearly defined interpretation of the TOS, especially for someone who thinks the interpretation of the community at large doesn't matter.

And I wish it were that easy. Maybe then I wouldn't have ever been accused of cheating like I was...
It is that easy. The community can't ban you or even punish you.
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Old 09-15-2019, 05:37 PM   #56
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It is that easy. The community can't ban you or even punish you.
Then why do you care so much about my divergent interpretation of the TOS?
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Old 09-15-2019, 05:40 PM   #57
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For the life of me, I can't understand why anyone who wants a better game would argue about some code that would better define tanking.

Until the game rules are tightened up, I'll return back to the Classic version.
Because that kind of code would be extremely difficult to write.
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Old 09-15-2019, 06:07 PM   #58
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Because that kind of code would be extremely difficult to write.
I coded for 20 years. There's nothing hard about limiting a team to deplete itself only so much over a specific period of time.
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Old 09-15-2019, 06:24 PM   #59
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Then why do you care so much about my divergent interpretation of the TOS?
I don't care. I just think you are creating a problem for yourself where none exists. Tell me... were you banned for your actions or did you even receive a warning from the developers?
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Old 09-15-2019, 06:28 PM   #60
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I coded for 20 years. There's nothing hard about limiting a team to deplete itself only so much over a specific period of time.
So are you saying it's tanking to sell off your best players and not replace them right away? Because if that's true, I just tanked one of my teams, and I intend to sell others when their collections come out.
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