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Old 09-11-2019, 04:53 AM   #1
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What does 'tanking' mean

I read about people who consider tanking, but what does it really mean?

1. Setting the strategy oddly can't be considered tanking; it even has a random button on the strategy.

2. Not playing your 'starters' can't be tanking; since it is your team. Maybe you want to see how the weaker players play.

3. Taking out your best players and putting them win the reserve roster can't be tanking since you still have to fill a team of players and people with weaker players on their teams aren't tanking.

4. Putting position players as pitchers isn't tanking since the only ones who can play both ways will be able to pitch.

5. Putting players at odd positions isn't tanking because you are the GM and the manager will just adjust everything during the game and do what is right for the team. (Buck Ewing started in RF once for me, it wasn't my decision, it was the manager)

The only tanking I can think of is if you have all 3 of your teams in the same league and then you do one of the above on 2 of your teams.

Or, you did on discord and everyone in one league tanks so one team can win.

What I am getting at is that it is your team and who can tell someone that they always have to play their stars, and seriously, you could just put all your stars inactive and play a full teams of guys rated 47 because you want to see how they would do in the league and if they win then you would have 'bragging' rights.

No one knows what is in someone's head? Is someone who pulls a 'Walter Johnson' but would rather try to sell him for 500,000 be tanking?

I guess I just don't understand. I say, if you are out of your league then go down one. It's your team, and as long as it doesn't help just one team but benefits the whole league, then who cares.

I don't think tanking is cheating. And I do not see any of the 'perfect league' top teams wanted to go down to the Diamond League just to win a World Series. It would be a meaningless win to the top players.

So, anyone have any other thoughts?

(please read through the typos if you can; I am famous for my typos and confusion)
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Old 09-11-2019, 05:21 AM   #2
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I guess it essentially equals losing on purpose for some other cause. (that another player or players find objectionable.) But you bring up some pretty good points here...I think of that movie "Major League"...the owner in that movie wanted to tank. As much as a fan I am, and many of us are, of that fictional Cleveland Indians team...their run to the pennant is not possible, the plot of the movie is not possible, without their antagonist owner.
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Old 09-11-2019, 05:29 AM   #3
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My definition of tanking: intentionally losing to the point that one's actions make a mockery of the game and those who are trying to play within the rules.
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Old 09-11-2019, 05:35 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HelpDodgers View Post
I read about people who consider tanking, but what does it really mean?

1. Setting the strategy oddly can't be considered tanking; it even has a random button on the strategy.

2. Not playing your 'starters' can't be tanking; since it is your team. Maybe you want to see how the weaker players play.

3. Taking out your best players and putting them win the reserve roster can't be tanking since you still have to fill a team of players and people with weaker players on their teams aren't tanking.

4. Putting position players as pitchers isn't tanking since the only ones who can play both ways will be able to pitch.

5. Putting players at odd positions isn't tanking because you are the GM and the manager will just adjust everything during the game and do what is right for the team. (Buck Ewing started in RF once for me, it wasn't my decision, it was the manager)
All of this is tanking of some sort; the jury is still out on #1, and #5 is not correct. (Players can start in odd positions when you have multiple starters also pencilled in as backups at other positions and somehow a hole opens somewhere in the lineup. Also, at no point will the game prohibit you from playing a player that is not qualified for a certain position to play that position. Training a Tatis jr. at second base from zero right now.)

Position players as pitchers is probably the most obvious offense. Of course it is tanking.

If you have a full roster of diamonds/perfects and park all of them and play bronze players to get out of Perfect League, that damn hell is tanking. What else should be?? Just because a card is your card doesn't mean there aren't rules to follow. Anything that grossly disrupts normal gameplay can and will be considered tanking. If you want to see how your irons play in Diamond League, f.e., what do you think will happen? They will get raked. And since you play the teams in your division more often than those outside, this gives teams in your division a better chance at a wild card. Thus, your gross ignorance will ruin other teams' season, and that is one of the main reasons why tanking is forbidden.
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Old 09-11-2019, 05:56 AM   #5
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Well, if a team that made the perfect league 'tanks' to go down to the diamond league and then wins the WS stopping another from going to perfect league, wouldn't that mean that they team who was stopped wasn't ready for perfect league?

Giving your division a better chance at the WC is very true. Should you do what is best for the league or what is best for you?
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Old 09-11-2019, 05:59 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HelpDodgers View Post
Should you do what is best for the league or what is best for you?
Should your personal liberties be limitless or should there be some sort of boundary for you doing as you please?

If you ruin other people's enjoyment of the game by tanking egregiously, you're getting it with the sledgehammer - how hard to understand can that be?
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Old 09-11-2019, 08:59 AM   #7
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to be honest: I don't understand. So, pretty hard.
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Old 09-11-2019, 09:56 AM   #8
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Say I'm in the Western Division and my team is crummy. They might lose 90 games. I make sure they get relegated by tanking hard. Only pitchers with a rating under 50 from now on! The top three teams in my division might have won 92, 90, 88 games. Because I tank so hard, they all win five more: 97, 95, 93 wins.

Your team is in the Central Division. Your team would have won 90 games and a wild card. Since I play you only six times, you win only one additional game, 91 in total. No playoffs for you!

Are you mad now?
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Old 09-11-2019, 10:00 AM   #9
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Well...

Quote:
Originally Posted by HelpDodgers View Post
to be honest: I don't understand. So, pretty hard.
Defining when you cross the line into tanking as opposed to experimenting is not always something that's clear, I'll grant you. Former Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, speaking about what constituted obscenity, said it best: "I can't tell you what it is, but I sure as hell know it when I see it." Tanking is any behavior that is designed to make you lose. You aren't tanking if you can't/don't afford better players. If you have 25 perfects on the roster and are starting 25 irons, you're tanking. Why are basic ethical concepts so hard to understand?

Regarding your 5 points:

1. Unclear, but if you realize that a strategy is going to be destructive, you'll need to make an ethical decision. If you deliberately choose to lose, yeah, it's tanking. I can't, as an observer, know what's in your heart. If you're running a team where David Ortiz is your fastest guy and you set baserunning and base stealing to the max (as an example), yeah...you're tanking. On the other hand, that same strategy when Ozzie Smith is your slowpoke might make sense. It's about judgement and ethics, kid.

2. Please, you aren't stupid. Do the rest of us a favor and assume we aren't either. This is tanking. Doing that for one game might be excusable, if it's early. Doing it for a season...yeah, tanking.

3. If I understand you correctly, yeah...tanking.

4. You CAN force position players to pitch, as far as I know. Just because you CAN do something does not mean it isn't tanking. Position players pitching (except for a handful of genuine 2 way players) is clearly tanking.

5. Again, doing it for a single game, or on occasion to train a player is acceptable. I've made Ozzie Smith into a fearsome fielding third baseman. Playing Khris Davis at catcher...that's tanking—he can barely throw in the outfield. It's a judgement call, and requires only a bit of common sense.

What you do as a player affects every team in your league. You may, by tanking, send an undeserving team to the playoffs. You WILL allow teams in your division to gain PP they are not entitled to, which not only affects your league, but all the future leagues these teams end up in. You afford the undeserving a competitive advantage when you tank, and that's cheating. You're also violating the Terms of Service agreement...which you accepted when you licensed the game.

If I come off sounding overly moralistic or hostile, I apologize for the tone. Tankers irritate the **** out of me. I was raised in the Vince Lombardi school of thinking. There is NEVER a reason to consider losing an acceptable outcome, and to embrace it by tanking is beneath contempt. You may consider me an anachronistic Neanderthal for thinking that way, as is your right, but that's how I was raised. ALWAYS do your best. ALWAYS try to succeed.
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Old 09-11-2019, 10:19 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HelpDodgers View Post
to be honest: I don't understand. So, pretty hard.

The thought police officers can't agree on what tanking it because it is only vaguely addressed in the ToA of the game, so for simplicity's sake, it is usually trimmed down to "Don't lose on purpose".


As long as this game uses pro/rel, we will see these discussions pop up every single year, and more than once each year. In a ladder system where you have zero incentive to go down, not only would tanking not something people would think about, but the amount of people caring more about what others do rather than focusing their own team would be pretty much zero.
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Old 09-11-2019, 10:25 AM   #11
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here we go again...
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Old 09-11-2019, 10:25 AM   #12
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Quote:
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Say I'm in the Western Division and my team is crummy. They might lose 90 games. I make sure they get relegated by tanking hard. Only pitchers with a rating under 50 from now on! The top three teams in my division might have won 92, 90, 88 games. Because I tank so hard, they all win five more: 97, 95, 93 wins.

Your team is in the Central Division. Your team would have won 90 games and a wild card. Since I play you only six times, you win only one additional game, 91 in total. No playoffs for you!

Are you mad now?

Why would I be mad ? This is a game. Not making the playoffs takes away a whole 1000PP from me (maybe slightly more, if I get lucky). I'll live.
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Old 09-11-2019, 11:02 AM   #13
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Well, my question was an honest question, not a troll. Not everyone here would be considered experts in everything. I'm not.

Now the name calling. You should be ashamed. I'm human you know.

--

I was just saying that it is my team. Why do 'free' teams get to play in the same leagues as 'whale' teams?

If I spend 200$ on the game and someone doesn't spend a dime and has weaker players then I feel that is tanking. Spend some money! Support the game you play without a monthly charge.

So, I think it's your team. There are 9 teams in my league winning 40% or less than their games. The worse team is an all live team with 19 level 90 players, and they have only won 25% of their games.

Are they tanking for being in my league? Shouldn't they regulate? They are giving my rival free games, right? If they could get all MLB live cards then they could get a Lou Gehrig in the lineup.

So, be nice. My question is real. What really is tanking.

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Old 09-11-2019, 11:28 AM   #14
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People are free to spend a million dollars and people are free to play without charge. Rules against 'tanking' is a way to keep this flawed (unless you are the one making money) concept of a game from being exposed for what is truly is.
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Old 09-11-2019, 11:51 AM   #15
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I just can't believe these threads keep getting made. If someone appears to be egregiously tanking, report. If you want a metric, how about just taking the OVR average of the top 25 reserve + inactive players (maybe flagging the AH if there are 10+ sales of golds or better amd this is true). Compare to the roster. Is the reserve average higher than the lineup average by some factor? (Say, 10 points)? Then they're probably tanking. If positional players whose pitching stats are below some cutoff are regularly pitching? Also likely tanking.

Easy. Pretty effective to spot.

It's not like this definition has to be set in stone. LOTS of games have report features with vague-ish requirements on banworthy offenses. You don't need a legal definition of these things, you just report and the devs get to make the call. It's their game.
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Old 09-11-2019, 12:34 PM   #16
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Done with this.
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Old 09-11-2019, 05:12 PM   #17
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Tanking is simple to define. It is trying to lose on purpose. YOU know if YOU are trying to lose on purpose. If you are, then you are tanking. Simple.
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Old 09-11-2019, 07:06 PM   #18
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Personally, I believe tanking only becomes an issue when it skews the Points earned by teams playing against the team that is trying to lose. This is supported by the fact that the devs are on record as stating that there are some actions that can increase the likelihood a team loses that will not be adjudicated as a TOS violation.

It also confuses the issue a lot that the way the TOS is written is such that a strict reading of it will actually render certain styles of gameplay illegal, such as running a theme team while also trying to be a collector. Good luck explaining to the community why you have all those impressive historical diamonds and perfects on your inactive roster while you're deliberately fielding theme teams of all the best live cards, 3 true outcome players, special edition cards, or whatever.


Quote:
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4. You CAN force position players to pitch, as far as I know. Just because you CAN do something does not mean it isn't tanking. Position players pitching (except for a handful of genuine 2 way players) is clearly tanking.
If this were true, I would have been able to set my Bob Gibson as a 2 Way Player to take advantage of his surprisingly high speed as a pinch runner on my incredibly slow team. The game prevented me from doing this.

[Super Late Edit: As pointed out in a later post, while this may be a similar situation, it is not the same and therefore not completely applicable. It appears that while pitchers with substandard ratings as batters are prevented from being two-way players, batters do not require any sort of minimum pitching requirements to be used both ways. I apologize for my imprecision.]
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Old 09-11-2019, 08:36 PM   #19
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It also confuses the issue a lot that the way the TOS is written is such that a strict reading of it will actually render certain styles of gameplay illegal, such as running a theme team while also trying to be a collector. Good luck explaining to the community why you have all those impressive historical diamonds and perfects on your inactive roster while you're deliberately fielding theme teams of all the best live cards, 3 true outcome players, special edition cards, or whatever.

Nope, running a theme team or collecting is not "trying to lose", so it is clearly not tanking. You don't have to explain anything to the community, only the developers if and when they ask.
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Old 09-11-2019, 09:21 PM   #20
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Nope, running a theme team or collecting is not "trying to lose", so it is clearly not tanking. You don't have to explain anything to the community, only the developers if and when they ask.
And yet we all respond to this thread...
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