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Old 07-17-2019, 05:27 PM   #21
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Ultimately, you have to have a simple rule (preferably enforced by code) that suffices in blocking intentional and effective moves to lose games. Once you have that in place, everything else is minor - and acceptable.

And above all, you end this endless discussion.
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Old 07-17-2019, 05:53 PM   #22
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The free rewards in the game are great! Not complaining about that, but the issue with tanking could be pretty easily resolved by offering better rewards at higher levels. Honestly, I think the rewards at Iron and Bronze should be lower as well.

Maybe something like -50% current rewards at Iron, -25% at Bronze, current rewards at Silver, +25% at Gold, +50% at Diamond, and +75% at Perfect.

I disagree, Some of us only spend periodically so taking rewards away fro us will just cause us to tank more bc we can't gain anywhere. My big is is the demotion & promotion.I've been playing 19 & 20 since beginning & am just beginning to advance but for some reasons every season there are 1-2 teams that are loaded with Perfect & Diamond cards still playing in silver & gold leagues. 1 team in my league & division has had one team for last 7-8 season and is averaging 115 wins a season & has taken title in every year they been in since they started. the team is currently in a Gold league with a record of 50-11 with every other team in both AC & NC was with 1-6 games of each other. very competitive except for this one LOADED team EVERY a diamond or Perfect & quiet obvious he purchaed from beginning of when he started bc you can view he cards to see how long he's had this team. It's making me lose interest more & more because this is a ongoing problem throughout leagues. Why & How are they not advancing when they winning 115 games or more a year & the Championship to boot. I just don't have that much cash to drop on cards but I expect those that cant to be placed in competive, even leagues. How can you stay in one Bronze, Silver, Gold league by cleaning out league every year win 115+ wins & Championship every year. This year is his 1st in GOLD at that. I imagine he'll stay here as long as he can. It just plain sucks.
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Old 07-17-2019, 05:58 PM   #23
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Your story doesn't add up. If the team won the championship, he would move up. If you claim the opposite - pictures or didn't happen.
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Old 07-17-2019, 07:40 PM   #24
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I disagree, Some of us only spend periodically so taking rewards away fro us will just cause us to tank more bc we can't gain anywhere. My big is is the demotion & promotion.I've been playing 19 & 20 since beginning & am just beginning to advance but for some reasons every season there are 1-2 teams that are loaded with Perfect & Diamond cards still playing in silver & gold leagues. 1 team in my league & division has had one team for last 7-8 season and is averaging 115 wins a season & has taken title in every year they been in since they started. the team is currently in a Gold league with a record of 50-11 with every other team in both AC & NC was with 1-6 games of each other. very competitive except for this one LOADED team EVERY a diamond or Perfect & quiet obvious he purchaed from beginning of when he started bc you can view he cards to see how long he's had this team. It's making me lose interest more & more because this is a ongoing problem throughout leagues. Why & How are they not advancing when they winning 115 games or more a year & the Championship to boot. I just don't have that much cash to drop on cards but I expect those that cant to be placed in competive, even leagues. How can you stay in one Bronze, Silver, Gold league by cleaning out league every year win 115+ wins & Championship every year. This year is his 1st in GOLD at that. I imagine he'll stay here as long as he can. It just plain sucks.
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Regardless of the accuracy of the scenario you mentioned, I DO agree that teams with the best records should move up - NOT playoff winners. This is a primary reason there's so much inequality at the higher levels.
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Old 07-17-2019, 08:19 PM   #25
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I'll throw this in again - just in case no one has yet taken it seriously...

Add code to the game that takes a snapshot of the OVR total first game of the season - then block any attempt for the balance of the year to reduce the total OVR more than 10% (example). In this scenario, a team with a 95 OVR average (2375 total) wouldn't be able to deplete the team any further than an 85 OVR average (2138 total) for the rest of the season. And maybe it should be even more restrictive; like 5%.
I haven't taken it seriously because it doesn't merit serious consideration.

If I want to blow up my team and start over, or change my theme or go to a theme, then under your scenario I'm not allowed to do that.

Sorry, that's overly restrictive.
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Old 07-17-2019, 08:21 PM   #26
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Regardless of the accuracy of the scenario you mentioned, I DO agree that teams with the best records should move up - NOT playoff winners. This is a primary reason there's so much inequality at the higher levels.
Then why have the playoffs at all?

"Teams with the best records move up" sounds like a great solution for an online version of Football Manager, (Perfect Squad, perhaps?) not OOTP...
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Old 07-17-2019, 09:24 PM   #27
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So people can try to win a championship and earn points for it...

I think fixed promotion/relegation should be scrapped completely, but if the game is going to have it I'd like to see every playoff team move up. The more fluidity there is than the quicker teams get sorted into the proper level instead of a great team staying at a low level due to "bad" playoff luck. More teams will naturally be relegated which removes the need for tanking if you are stuck as like a bottom five but not two worse team each year.
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Old 07-18-2019, 11:29 AM   #28
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As someone who has 2 teams that adhere to themes and a 3rd that has prioritized the addition of elite offensive talent while ignoring pitching (beyond a certain set amount that coincides with a specific collection of poor quality cards), it is absolutely clear to me that I am "failing to make a good-faith effort to play the game in a fashion intended to win via fair gameplay." I am focusing on point generation in 1 example specifically and interesting card collections in all 3. In neither case are my actions taken with an intent to win. Sometimes I win, but that is often in spite of the lineup I field, rarely because of it.

In both cases, I pursue objectives that directly inhibit the amount of games I can win. By valuing points and enjoyment over winning, I am in violation of the TOS.

Either I am wrong, or the TOS is not sufficient.
This 100%. Same as with '19 for me. I have paid good money acquire then sit perfect cards that at the current time and based on what account/team I pulled them on, simply don't jive with my current Theme Team.

So I am now and have been manning a team of Unsung Heroes that are very competitive. I have all 277 of the cards. You can imagine it probably cost me at least $1 to accrue all 277 cards. I should be able to play this team unfettered. However, in doing so I am deactivating several cards that are better than my existing Unsung Roster choices and in doing so I am violating the TOS.

Now if they want to let users like us who have acquired so many different cards and play so many different themes to peel off those cards into 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th accounts then I am all for it (heck I'd even pay a premium to do it)... I just don't see a solution that fits all here...

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Old 07-18-2019, 11:36 AM   #29
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So I am now and have been manning a team of Unsung Heroes what are very competitive. I have all 277 of the cards. You can imagine it probably cost me at least $1 to accrue all 277 cards. I should be able to play this team unfettered. However, in doing so I am deactivating several cards that are better than my existing Unsung Roster choices and in doing so I am violating the TOS.
No, you are not. Have you been warned about it? I didn't think so.
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Old 07-18-2019, 02:00 PM   #30
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No, you are not. Have you been warned about it? I didn't think so.
We can read the TOS. We know we are not adhering to it. It isn't that difficult to know when we're in the wrong, even if we think we should not be.

The simple fact remains that collecting cards and using them in unique and interesting ways is a style of play that the TOS either does not consider or considers to be the wrong way to play.

This is an example of how the TOS's focus on winning is insufficient.
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Old 07-18-2019, 03:31 PM   #31
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The simple fact remains that collecting cards and using them in unique and interesting ways is a style of play that the TOS either does not consider or considers to be the wrong way to play.
Have you been warned about it?
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Old 07-18-2019, 03:45 PM   #32
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Have you been warned about it?
Formally, no. Informally, I have been accused of cheating and breaking the TOS multiple times by people on these forums. I do not believe these people were necessarily incorrect that I was and am breaking the TOS.

So many people have claimed that I am wrong to ask for clarification on the TOS because it is obvious when someone is breaking it and cheating. If they are correct, then I am wrong. I do not care about winning. I take actions - in strategies, roster selection, and point usage - that cause me to lose more games and win fewer games.

I clearly break the TOS. I cannot control how strictly the game administration enforces it.
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Old 07-18-2019, 04:37 PM   #33
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Formally, no. Informally, I have been accused of cheating and breaking the TOS multiple times by people on these forums.
People on the forums have no enforcement authority. The developers enforce the rules, and Markus has said in this thread that they have been warning and banning people all along the way. So, if you have not been warned, you must not be breaking the rules.
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Old 07-18-2019, 05:24 PM   #34
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People on the forums have no enforcement authority. The developers enforce the rules, and Markus has said in this thread that they have been warning and banning people all along the way. So, if you have not been warned, you must not be breaking the rules.
The whole point of this thread is that the admins are changing their enforcement. Those who were not being warned before now are. Maybe I will be warned in short order. Maybe I won't be warned yet but will be the next time they decide to tighten their belts and enforce things even more strictly.

Either way, bringing up the fact that the TOS does not sufficiently address all manners of gameplay is entirely germane to this thread.
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Old 07-18-2019, 07:19 PM   #35
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After all this time, I still don't understand what some of you are protecting. You want total and complete control over your team - yet I'm sure your smart enough to know that scenario gives people all kinds of leway to "lose on purpose. You also know that the current TOS says losing on purpose is not legal. Asking for the TOS to be clarified isn't the end of the world.

We have people who want more balanced competition, but defend moving playoff winners up before winning percentage - pushing weaker teams to the top too fast and stronger teams to stay in the lower levels longer - then complain about why they are still there beating everyone up and collecting tons of PPs while some Perfect Level teams find themselves 50 games out of first with no way to adjust other than spend money.

We have people who repeat ad-nauseum that things are just fine the way they are - and people who are asking the Devs to simply consider a few modifications that never get so much as an "interesting" response.

Here we are in July and most of the concerns stated 4 months ago (and before in PT19) are still being argued about.

After playing through PT19 and PT20 to this point, I still hold out some hope for Tournaments, but I have less hope the Dev team is interested in better balance. I don't have the budget, nor the will, to dump exorbitant amounts of money into the game just so I can string together 50 weeks of 150-12 seasons, and I don't have the patience to put up with being accused of cheating every time I move players around.

I will likely continue F2P play and focus on card collecting - it's not like I hate the game - but I simply don't see a justifiable reason to keep putting money into it.

There's a ton of potential here, but if the accepted belief is "it's just fine the way it is", that potential will never be seen.
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Old 07-19-2019, 03:46 AM   #36
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A little addendum to clear up some confusion, we typically do not enforce the "individuals are limited to a single OOTP account" part of the EULA, as long as the individual does not use the extra PT accounts created with additional licenses for illegal activities like win trading our PP funneling. So, it is okay if you buy multiple copies of the game with the intent to have more than three PT accounts for yourself, if you so desire. Just please make sure you do not violate the other rules.

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Old 07-19-2019, 06:41 AM   #37
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We have people who want more balanced competition, but defend moving playoff winners up before winning percentage - pushing weaker teams to the top too fast and stronger teams to stay in the lower levels longer - then complain about why they are still there beating everyone up and collecting tons of PPs while some Perfect Level teams find themselves 50 games out of first with no way to adjust other than spend money.
I'd be open to a hybrid solution - reserve two of the four promotion spots for the two best regular season records, and two for the two "World Series" participants. If one or both teams overlap, then the playoff spot goes to sub-league series participants (with regular season record being the tiebreaker if only one team overlaps)

This would certainly solve the problem of a wild card team lucking out in a five-game series against the #1 seed getting an instant promotion, because they would then need to "back it up" by winning the best-of-7 sub-league series to qualify for promotion. It also would move obvious whales whose class shows over a long season upwards and onwards toward a level that is more appropriate for them.

Of course, the generous promotion rules in the first few seasons of the game, as the pyramid is being built, seem to work well towards "helping water find its own level" as it were. But it doesn't help for whales who are entering a team later in the season (such as now). A hybrid solution rewards both long-term success and playoff accomplishments.

I strongly believe you still need to have some sort of promotional reward for the best playoff teams because, as I said earlier, why else have the playoffs at all? For the 1000 perfect points? The graphic of a non-existent trophy? The little badge that sits in the upper-left-hand corner of your team screen until the game servers are shut down sometime next year? No. We try to do well in the playoffs because we want to get promoted, eventually up to Perfect League.
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Old 07-19-2019, 01:07 PM   #38
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So people can try to win a championship and earn points for it...

I think fixed promotion/relegation should be scrapped completely, but if the game is going to have it I'd like to see every playoff team move up. The more fluidity there is than the quicker teams get sorted into the proper level instead of a great team staying at a low level due to "bad" playoff luck. More teams will naturally be relegated which removes the need for tanking if you are stuck as like a bottom five but not two worse team each year.
So simple. 10 teams move up and 8 teams move down. Why didn't OOTP think of that? What is so precious about 4 up and 2 down?
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Old 07-19-2019, 01:44 PM   #39
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So simple. 10 teams move up and 8 teams move down. Why didn't OOTP think of that? What is so precious about 4 up and 2 down?

I think more pro/rel might help. Participants seem to be more unhappy with OOTP when they are stuck. If the spectre of relegation loomed larger, it would make the week-to-week more interesting.


Myself, I'm too fixated on my own team to worry about other teams tanking or pulling other shenanigans, so long as they are not colluding or farming/moving PP.
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Old 07-19-2019, 05:20 PM   #40
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Point Funneling

There wasn't really a good place to post this (which is probably part of the issue), so I place it here. I noticed a pretty obvious case of "point funneling" recently.

92 "Zach" Britton is a card I own and have been trying to sell periodically and then more seriously this past week. I've noticed that Britton's 'last 7 day average' was 4001 PP at one point--which is odd considering he'd been going for 10-15K PP. Maybe it was a mistake? But that's exactly what the point funneler wants us to believe. I noticed that when I put my 92 Britton up most recently, the last 7 day average had shot up to 36K PP. Which, again, is odd because my card was on the AH almost non-stop for ~15K and no one would touch it.

Anyhow, this seems pretty clear to me that someone is quickly selling cards to one of their accounts at rock bottom prices only to quickly re-sell it to another account at a huge profit. And hope that nobody sees it.

I would appreciate it if the devs had some way of checking into this specific instance, because the anonymous nature of the AH is that there's no specific person that we can report. No paper trail that I can see other than the artificial fluctuations in auction pricing.
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