Home | Webstore
Latest News: OOTP Update 20.6 - OOTP 20 Available - FHM 6 Available

FHM 6 Available Now!

  

Go Back   OOTP Developments Forums > Prior Versions of Our Games > Earlier versions of Out of the Park Baseball > Earlier versions of OOTP: Historical Simulations

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-20-2011, 12:24 AM   #1
Kobeck
Major Leagues
 
Kobeck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 304
Thanks: 1,363
Thanked 119x in 72 posts
who here is the most into 19th Century base-ball?

I'm working on a project and would like to share some information

I'm talking pre NA stuff.

Also I finally found the $$$s so I am on OOTP12 - finally.

and looking back at this thread I could have come up with a better title, but it was o'dark o'clock

Last edited by Kobeck; 10-20-2011 at 01:47 PM.
Kobeck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2011, 06:40 AM   #2
scott1964
Hall Of Famer
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Denver
Posts: 4,877
Blog Entries: 19
Thanks: 324
Thanked 597x in 437 posts
Check out my dynasty.
http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ll-league.html
__________________
This just feels more like waiting in line at the Department of Motor Vehicles.


scott1964 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2011, 01:43 PM   #3
Kobeck
Major Leagues
 
Kobeck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 304
Thanks: 1,363
Thanked 119x in 72 posts
This is my 1856 data

I tried to PM you this but I could not figure out how too attach a document in a PM.

I have collected this data from numerous sources. It is about as good as it gets. I plan on doing the NABBP next, should take me a few months. Individual data is sparse and virtually useless consisting of runs and outs mostly. I guess some crude information could be gained from the ammount of games played and for which teams, but the real stat keeping did not begin till late into the NABBP.

Like I said I have completed what I call the Gentleman era - 1843-56.

I find this Pre NA era fascinating as the game evolved from professional people - doctors, lawyers and such - getting outside the city for some "vigorous excercise" to the birth of full grown continental professional leagues a quarter century later.

As I said I will be completing this thru 1870, for my own amusement, but I will be happy too share if there is interest
Attached Files
File Type: doc 1856 Teams.doc (99.5 KB, 305 views)
File Type: doc 1856 Venues.doc (31.5 KB, 239 views)

Last edited by Kobeck; 10-20-2011 at 03:40 PM.
Kobeck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2011, 02:44 PM   #4
scott1964
Hall Of Famer
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Denver
Posts: 4,877
Blog Entries: 19
Thanks: 324
Thanked 597x in 437 posts
Looking good. keep up the good work.
__________________
This just feels more like waiting in line at the Department of Motor Vehicles.


scott1964 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2011, 09:27 AM   #5
Kobeck
Major Leagues
 
Kobeck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 304
Thanks: 1,363
Thanked 119x in 72 posts
1857 complete

58-60 will be slow, lots of games / teams
61-65 will be faster because of the Civil War
66-70 will be progressivly slower. This Post Civil War saw a boom in teams and a quick look seems to show tons of games where a touring team stopped in a town and played a local side that never played another NABBP team ever again. Right now I am counting these teams as legit and will do so thru 1865. Those last 5 years I will just have too decide if it is worth the effort as clearly these teams will be of the lowest level and their venues would have been a field near the hotel or train depot

Last edited by Kobeck; 12-03-2011 at 09:31 AM.
Kobeck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2011, 12:56 PM   #6
jlking
Minors (Single A)
 
jlking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 84
Thanks: 67
Thanked 31x in 24 posts
"I find this Pre NA era fascinating as the game evolved from professional people - doctors, lawyers and such - getting outside the city for some "vigorous excercise" to the birth of full grown continental professional leagues a quarter century later."
Just an observation. A few years back I read a book about baseball in Cuba. Wealthier parents would send their sons to America for college where they picked up the game. The first baseball games were more of a picnic then anything else. The young gentlemen would play their game, with few set rules. They typicality would have four outfielders and as many as five strikes. After showing off the prowess to the young ladies, they would have a sort of gala party with music and dance.

Soon the sugar plantations picked up on the game as a cheap way to entertain their workers and keep them from wondering off during the down season. But it became such a thing of pride with the plantation owners that they started importing expensive American ringers.

Anyway, professional baseball in Cuba grow out of the sugar plantations and the huge egos of their owners.
jlking is offline   Reply With Quote
Thank you for this post:
Kobeck (12-03-2011)
Old 12-17-2011, 04:24 AM   #7
Carlton
Hall Of Famer
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,712
Thanks: 436
Thanked 427x in 279 posts
NAPBBP

The commish of my favorite league Phil Trygar is writing a screnplay based on early baseball and his knowledge on pre 1871 is the best I have ever seen...email him...and join our league or join the wait list!
Carlton is offline   Reply With Quote
Thank you for this post:
Kobeck (01-26-2012)
Old 01-26-2012, 02:51 AM   #8
Kobeck
Major Leagues
 
Kobeck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 304
Thanks: 1,363
Thanked 119x in 72 posts
Checking it out as I am typing.

What with the holidays and all I dont anticipate picking up this project for a little while. About 10% into 1858 FWIW

Last edited by Kobeck; 05-31-2013 at 10:57 PM.
Kobeck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2012, 08:17 AM   #9
mjj55409
All Star Reserve
 
mjj55409's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 900
Thanks: 162
Thanked 258x in 182 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlton View Post
NAPBBP

The commish of my favorite league Phil Trygar is writing a screnplay based on early baseball and his knowledge on pre 1871 is the best I have ever seen...email him...and join our league or join the wait list!
I'm sorry, but what exactly is historic about that league? The player names? That seems to be it. You have 5 man pitching rotations and what looks to be modern stats.
__________________
Baseball Comes to Montreal
mjj55409 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2013, 01:35 AM   #10
Kobeck
Major Leagues
 
Kobeck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 304
Thanks: 1,363
Thanked 119x in 72 posts
this project is not dead.

I only have 1867-1870 NABBP to finish. I have the data just a matter of getting time to get it into excel.
Kobeck is offline   Reply With Quote
Thank you for this post:
Jabez54 (05-31-2013)
Old 06-02-2013, 10:18 PM   #11
Kobeck
Major Leagues
 
Kobeck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 304
Thanks: 1,363
Thanked 119x in 72 posts
1867 complete

will begin 1868 tomorrow
Kobeck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2013, 09:08 AM   #12
Kobeck
Major Leagues
 
Kobeck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 304
Thanks: 1,363
Thanked 119x in 72 posts
1868 complete

just 1869 and 1870 to go....
Kobeck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2013, 03:16 PM   #13
Kobeck
Major Leagues
 
Kobeck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 304
Thanks: 1,363
Thanked 119x in 72 posts
1869 complete


Just 1870 to go. Will try and work on it some tomorrow
Kobeck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2013, 10:03 PM   #14
Kobeck
Major Leagues
 
Kobeck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 304
Thanks: 1,363
Thanked 119x in 72 posts
project complete


over 2000 team years of pre NABBP and NABBP from 1843-1870
Attached Files
File Type: xls Release BB 1843-1870.xls (703.0 KB, 273 views)

Last edited by Kobeck; 06-11-2013 at 11:48 PM.
Kobeck is offline   Reply With Quote
4 thanks for this post:
BMW (03-25-2015), Lukas Berger (06-27-2013), NCBeachBum (06-08-2015), RANGER11JP (06-27-2015)
Old 06-12-2013, 12:13 AM   #15
Kobeck
Major Leagues
 
Kobeck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 304
Thanks: 1,363
Thanked 119x in 72 posts
I uploaded the file.

I think some will enjoy the information


A typical Amateur team would conduct themselves in the following way:

a group of men with something in common, place of residence or work for instance, form a BB club. They are 19th century Americans so they have too do it all formal like. Elect president, secretary ect. The BB club would rent a clubhouse where all the club business that was not actually playing BB would be conducted. When the BB club officials accept a challenge, or have a challenge accepted, then the details would be hammered out and the involved BB clubs would meet at a BB field for the game. Same with pratice, which is what most of these BB clubs tended to do.
After the game the two teams would share a dinner together and everyone would have a grand ol'time. Rinse and repeat

Usually the interest in the BB club would wane and the officers would continue the club with core members, but soon enough the financial drain would be too much and the club would disband

The vast majority of amateur teams existed for the social interactions of their members. Not unlike a country club today, if today was in the 1950s.



On to things you might be asking about the excel file. It is as comprenhesive as I can get it with the reference material available to me. I do not claim this is all the teams there were.

header is the year
first colum is what we would call team nickname
second is the city the team is based in, not their primary venue.
third is the state, or in the case of New York City teams - the borough
fourth is Cat, or category. Prestiege might be another term here.
0 is professional and not used till 1869 & 70.
1 is prestigious teams that were prominent in the papers of the day.
2 is teams that played many prestigious clubs and were noted for doing so
3 is other BB clubs that played some prestigious BB clubs
4 is any other BB clubs I had solid information on
5 is any other BB clubs that I had inferred information on. A team mentioned somewhere but I found no records of it anywhere else. A good chunk of these might have never actually played a game against another BB club

Games with known scores were compiled 1843-70. The high prestiege teams got more attention here. I cross referenced the games thru 1865. The number of teams and games got exponentially higher and, IMO, the time invested had diminishing returns. The available data provided a huge chunk of data from 1866-70. Although I could have cross referenced the professional games from 1869 & 70 I decided too use all games including amateur opponents.

I split the tabs 1843-56 & 1857-70 because the NABBP was formed, essentially, in 1857 and it makes an excellent dividing line.




Let me know if you have any questions

Last edited by Kobeck; 06-12-2013 at 10:25 AM.
Kobeck is offline   Reply With Quote
Thank you for this post:
Lukas Berger (06-27-2013)
Old 06-12-2013, 12:18 AM   #16
Kobeck
Major Leagues
 
Kobeck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 304
Thanks: 1,363
Thanked 119x in 72 posts
I will put something into the main mods section referencing people here.

I have a feeling people will not be looking here as often
Kobeck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2013, 09:46 AM   #17
No Pepper
All Star Starter
 
No Pepper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 1,253
Thanks: 128
Thanked 777x in 237 posts
Thank you for compiling this! I'll find some way to use this information.
No Pepper is offline   Reply With Quote
Thank you for this post:
Kobeck (06-15-2013)
Old 06-16-2013, 04:44 AM   #18
Kobeck
Major Leagues
 
Kobeck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 304
Thanks: 1,363
Thanked 119x in 72 posts
Couple of notes:

New York Club disbands but reforms, with essentially the same players, as Washington Club. They played at Red House in Harlem - Manhattan. Washington Club Disbands and forms Gotham of New York.

1846 Knickerbocker played over 50 scrimmages and essentially set all dimensions for the game. These scrimmages are why there are so many bang-bang plays at first base as a for instance.

until the 1860s BB was played where the first bound counted as out - which is of course laughable but its true.

Knickerbocker only cared about the social aspects of BB and had little roster turnover, even when they were no longer competitive. They were always a prestigious team though.





I have more data, but the stuff I have shared so far is solid.

Last edited by Kobeck; 06-19-2013 at 09:52 PM.
Kobeck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2013, 09:59 PM   #19
Kobeck
Major Leagues
 
Kobeck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 304
Thanks: 1,363
Thanked 119x in 72 posts
Empire BB Club was connected with Tamanny Hall scandals and was particularly blue collar for a BB club of its era

Last edited by Kobeck; 06-19-2013 at 10:02 PM.
Kobeck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2013, 03:55 PM   #20
Kobeck
Major Leagues
 
Kobeck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 304
Thanks: 1,363
Thanked 119x in 72 posts
http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ml#post3531196

stuff is getting spread across both areas uuugh!

Last edited by Kobeck; 07-04-2013 at 03:56 PM.
Kobeck is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:50 AM.

 

Major League Baseball trademarks and copyrights are used with permission of MLB Advanced Media, L.P. Minor League Baseball trademarks and copyrights are used with the permission of Minor League Baseball. All rights reserved.

The Major League Baseball Players Association (www.MLBPLAYERS.com ) is the collective bargaining representative for all professional baseball players of the thirty Major League Baseball teams and serves as the exclusive group licensing agent for commercial and licensing activities involving active Major League baseball players. On behalf of its members, it operates the Players Choice licensing program and the Players Choice Awards, which benefit the needy through the Major League Baseball Players Trust, a charitable foundation established and run entirely by Major League baseball players. Follow: @MLB_Players; @MLBPAClubhouse; @MLBPlayersTrust

Out of the Park Baseball is a registered trademark of Out of the Park Developments GmbH & Co. KG

Google Play is a trademark of Google Inc.

Apple, iPhone, iPod touch and iPad are trademarks of Apple Inc., registered in the U.S. and other countries.

COPYRIGHT © 2017 OUT OF THE PARK DEVELOPMENTS. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

 

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright © 2018 Out of the Park Developments