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Old 12-01-2019, 11:10 PM   #21
HRBaker
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That would really kill my plans for the next game, which is to play the regular leagues with my original starter packs players, while I accumulate perfect level players (which I will use in tournaments), until I have the 25 players I want. Then I bring them all on, all at once, and proceed up the ranks from there. Now you may ask why I want to do it this way. It's because I dislike split season stats on my players, in case the card I buy was already used, similar to the way some folks only want "mint" cards. I don't care if it is mint, but don't really want cards with split season stats nor if they have stupid, or oddball abbreviations, like R10T. This plan does not sandbag in iron because I am not using the better players and then withdrawing them to punt the post-season, so hurts no one, but would be illegal under your proposal.

I repeat, the problem that is so prevalent is players adjusting their Active Roster to their advantage to relegate themselves and feed off the weaker teams once they are there. I really don't care HOW the Devs fix that problem, but I think it is critical to the game that they DO fix it. In whatever process they choose to do so, some players will get hurt because they use the game in a way that wasn't imagined. That is going to to be the price for ending what I consider to be a major flaw in the current game. As it stands now, me (and I'm sure a large number of others) simply aren't going to pay hard cash for something where we can easily be cheated against. It's simply not logical.
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Old 12-02-2019, 12:09 AM   #22
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the fact you want to sandbag low levels while having perfect players available shows how screwed up the system is

this is the only game I'm familiar with where people dont want to win because it slows their progress

with collections making the auction house miserable on top of that Im definitely taking a wait and see approach next year

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Old 12-02-2019, 12:49 AM   #23
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The solution isn't hard. For example, take players that were relegated in 2 consecutive weeks. That is very unlikely to be anything but tanking, since the relegation talent gap tends to be pretty large. Or, to prevent the iron->bronze->iron thing, check to see if a team was promoted and relegated, say, 4 times in a 4-week cycle at a lower level, maybe with another check on their record or PP generation amounts. And, crucially, don't tell your playerbase about any of these measures so they can't game the system. Just send the warnings, and if they don't comply then issue bans. Maybe starting with a week ban and escalating from there. It's that simple.

EDIT: OR, the simplest of them all: Just check to see who is generating the most PP in a given week from, say, gold and below. If any of those teams have ever been at Perfect, they are almost certainly tanking. There are a hundred pretty easy solutions to this, it's really just a matter of which ends up being easiest to implement given available data.
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Old 12-02-2019, 01:34 AM   #24
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All of that is ridiculous and are band-aids over the real problem which won't go away, it will just be a game of seeing how far you can push the system. What needs to happen is to make the game so players want to do what the game wants them to do. Align incentives.
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Old 12-02-2019, 02:02 AM   #25
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All of that is ridiculous and are band-aids over the real problem which won't go away, it will just be a game of seeing how far you can push the system. What needs to happen is to make the game so players want to do what the game wants them to do. Align incentives.
A tanking team can probably earn like 50k minimum via achievements. A noncompetitive team (i.e. not making the playoffs, but not being relegated) maybe earns 5k in achievements each week. A competitive team maybe earns between 10k and 20k PP at a given level. What solution would you propose that would fix tanking such that earning 50k per week at a lower level isn't something people would want to do?
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Old 12-02-2019, 02:20 AM   #26
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Another sports game I've seen has a rule that you're ineligible for tournaments if you don't get promoted. They have unlimited levels and 50% promotion per season so it's a bit different but you could start here with being ineligible for tournaments the next season if you get demoted. There's numerous other fixes and nothing will be perfect but you can start making it harder for the tankers with little things like that. Of course that game has greater rewards the higher the level. It also has certain features that aren't available until you reach a certain level to help encourage promotion.
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Old 12-02-2019, 02:40 AM   #27
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What solution would you propose that would fix tanking such that earning 50k per week at a lower level isn't something people would want to do?
Earning points is something that all people will always want to do. The way to fix it is to change how points are awarded so that tanking does not earn more points. There are numerous ways this could be accomplished.
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Old 12-02-2019, 03:08 AM   #28
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A tanking team can probably earn like 50k minimum via achievements. A noncompetitive team (i.e. not making the playoffs, but not being relegated) maybe earns 5k in achievements each week. A competitive team maybe earns between 10k and 20k PP at a given level. What solution would you propose that would fix tanking such that earning 50k per week at a lower level isn't something people would want to do?
I Just won the iron series. I came in 1st place overall and then won all the playoffs. I got 3 gold, 14 silver and 201 bronze achievements for a total of 26K in PPs

I didn't see any tankers in my league, all but 1 of the teams promoted were first year teams. The one that wasn;t a first year team has 35 yrs of history and 80% of those are losing years, so not a Tanker team

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Old 12-02-2019, 03:37 AM   #29
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Earning points is something that all people will always want to do. The way to fix it is to change how points are awarded so that tanking does not earn more points. There are numerous ways this could be accomplished.
Okay, what is one of these solutions?

EDIT: In particular, what is one of these solutions that doesn't interfere with normal gameplay? You want dealing with tankers to be as noninvasive as possible, since you can really easily just distinguish who the tankers are using a separate check that doesn't involve modifying gameplay. So, in particular, I am curious to hear suggested solutions that don't interfere with e.g. someone who wants to try to get a bunch of rocket games by running staff with a ton of Stuff, or who wants to try to repeatedly get those In Control awards, or someone who wants to try to hit as many HR as possible, etc. Something totally not affecting the regular course of gameplay.

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I Just won the iron series. I came in 1st place overall and then won all the playoffs. I got 3 gold, 14 silver and 201 bronze achievements for a total of 26K in PPs

I didn't see any tankers in my league, all but 1 of the teams promoted were first year teams. The one that wasn;t a first year team has 35 yrs of history and 80% of those are losing years, so not a Tanker team

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I think truly top teams and/or teams who got a lucky gold achievement can earn closer to 30k in a week, but they tend to be promoted immediately so that ends up not being much of a problem. Tankers intentionally running a roster of absolutely dominant players will easily eclipse this; it's very easy to distinguish between the two. If a team was tanking in your league, you would know.
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Old 12-02-2019, 04:25 AM   #30
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Okay, what is one of these solutions?

EDIT: In particular, what is one of these solutions that doesn't interfere with normal gameplay? You want dealing with tankers to be as noninvasive as possible, since you can really easily just distinguish who the tankers are using a separate check that doesn't involve modifying gameplay. So, in particular, I am curious to hear suggested solutions that don't interfere with e.g. someone who wants to try to get a bunch of rocket games by running staff with a ton of Stuff, or who wants to try to repeatedly get those In Control awards, or someone who wants to try to hit as many HR as possible, etc. Something totally not affecting the regular course of gameplay.
The easiest solution in my [decidedly non-expert] opinion is to tier point rewards based on level of play. Throwing a Maddux is easier to do against weaker competition, so it makes a certain amount of sense to have that achievement yield a more lucrative reward when it is earned in Perfect than Iron. Making it worth more to be in Perfect will make all teams, even the bad ones, try much harder to stay in Perfect.

The problem is that achievements are based on inconsistent logic. Achievements reward good play, and by extension the good players who make those good plays. However, achievements reward the same amount in lower leagues in order to avoid the trap of "the rich get richer," even though this is precisely what achievements reward already by their intrinsic nature. This inconsistency has proven to be exploitable.
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Old 12-02-2019, 05:18 AM   #31
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The easiest solution in my [decidedly non-expert] opinion is to tier point rewards based on level of play. Throwing a Maddux is easier to do against weaker competition, so it makes a certain amount of sense to have that achievement yield a more lucrative reward when it is earned in Perfect than Iron. Making it worth more to be in Perfect will make all teams, even the bad ones, try much harder to stay in Perfect.

The problem is that achievements are based on inconsistent logic. Achievements reward good play, and by extension the good players who make those good plays. However, achievements reward the same amount in lower leagues in order to avoid the trap of "the rich get richer," even though this is precisely what achievements reward already by their intrinsic nature. This inconsistency has proven to be exploitable.
So you're an advocate of "if you're at a higher level, you should be automatically be earning more PP via achievements"? That's certainly a position you can take, but it's not very accessible to new players. That's what all of these types of solutions lack: a consideration for the new player experience, and how awarding more PP to the active players at the top might impact the economy from the perspective of a new player.

Consider the fraction of used PP that come from achievements at different levels. I'd argue that probably 95% of spent PP comes from achievements at iron, and maybe 5-10% of spent PP comes from achievements at Perfect. If you start awarding more PP to players at higher levels, it has the equivalent economic effect of removing PP from players at the bottom since prices would rise comparatively. This gets especially egregious if you tie it to achievements, since the vast majority of the PP gains will go straight to whale teams in Perfect, and you'll end up seeing more tanking down to Diamond to be able to get that doubly-effective achievement PP.

It's a good idea in spirit, but solutions like this don't occur in a vacuum. The only solution I would consider supporting is some kind of static PP award (Something like "Good luck on your upcoming season, here's 1k/2k/3k/4k/5k/6k PP to spend on your team for teams in Iron/Bronze/Silver/Gold/Diamond/Perfect"). Maybe adjusting achievement totals downward to account for the new PP influx so the amount of awarded PP stays the same. Only problem there is that the whole 50k-in-iron PP generation strategy will always be better than something flat like this, but at least there's a real difference between Perfect and Iron under that system.

The main point is that as long as PP generation is tied to achievement generation, without some massive, economy-warping multiplier on each level, tanking will be a good PP generating strategy. And there is no need to design such a destructive solution when you can very easily just do a few simple checks on your data to find the culprits. If you want to talk about full redesigns of the game economy, that's okay, but it shouldn't be done purely to stop tanking. Tanking should have virtually no role in that discussion.
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Old 12-02-2019, 05:39 AM   #32
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It's kind of perfect that there are a few tankers. If there were none, it would be because there was no reason to use strategy in some cases to not win.

Just saying if there was no reason to lose in some cases, it'd cross the line into gambling. Follow?
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Old 12-02-2019, 08:54 AM   #33
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A tanking team can probably earn like 50k minimum via achievements. A noncompetitive team (i.e. not making the playoffs, but not being relegated) maybe earns 5k in achievements each week. A competitive team maybe earns between 10k and 20k PP at a given level. What solution would you propose that would fix tanking such that earning 50k per week at a lower level isn't something people would want to do?
No promotion and relegation.

Every team is assigned to a tier at the start of the week based on the overall rating of their active roster (same logic as cap tournaments). During the week the overall value of your roster cannot go higher or lower than a specified number.

Better rewards at higher tiers.

Tanking no longer exists.

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Old 12-02-2019, 10:25 AM   #34
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Payoff PP for wins. N per win in iron, nx2 in bronze, nx3 in silver, nx4 gold, 5 diamond 6 perfect.

Payoff for post-season wins, scaling appropriately.

Payoff for promotion.

To balance the payouts, certain current achieves need to be dropped (Finals! for example, you're already rewarding winning.)

Other existing achieves left alone, so the "little guys" see some progress even if their teams are struggling.

Make Perfect the place to be for predictable income.
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Old 12-02-2019, 11:30 AM   #35
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All these solutions seem pretty over-elaborate and like they'd have significant knock on effects (mainly, making the game even harder for the little guys at the bottom and even easier for the already rich at the top). In reality, all they need to do is come up with a better and more robust system for spotting and then punishing tankers, given that it is already against the rules.

It can't be that hard to come up with an automated system that flags teams that do specific things (get relegated repeatedly, play irons in the DL, play non-catchers at catch in playoff games, have SP only face one batter in playoffs, etc etc) and then have someone have a quick look at the flagged teams behaviour to see if something is off.

If people knew tanking would result in bans/suspensions/team resets, the amount of people willing to try it would massively reduce as the risk wouldn't be worth the reward. Simple as that tbh
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Old 12-02-2019, 11:48 AM   #36
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No. Pull out the weed from the root instead of cutting the top off. All that your ideas do is make it so people play bronzes instead of irons or pitch for 2 innings instead of 1 or sandbag in slightly less obvious ways. There is still a line in the sand and a new thread every week arguing about it. You have to fix WHY people are playing the game that way, not just tell them "Yeah the game encourages you to do that but don't do it that much"
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Old 12-02-2019, 12:51 PM   #37
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No. Pull out the weed from the root instead of cutting the top off. All that your ideas do is make it so people play bronzes instead of irons or pitch for 2 innings instead of 1 or sandbag in slightly less obvious ways. There is still a line in the sand and a new thread every week arguing about it. You have to fix WHY people are playing the game that way, not just tell them "Yeah the game encourages you to do that but don't do it that much"
I think you took my examples far too literally, there are infinite ways of automatically spotting tankers and those were just examples. You also obviously don't announce what your system is so people can work around it.

If instead of punishing the people who break the rules, you instead just punish everyone playing at the lower levels by lowering the rewards, that's incredibly unfair on the vast majority who play the game fairly and a pretty terrible way of encouraging new players.

You don't have to fix why people are breaking the rules, you just have to deter them from doing so. The people who cheat will always try and cheat if they think they can get away with it.
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Old 12-02-2019, 01:09 PM   #38
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You do if you want to have a better game.

Is there one other video game out there that has to make it against the rules to lose because doing so is better for you?
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Old 12-02-2019, 01:09 PM   #39
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Making more and more rules and banning people instead of fixing the underlying problem by correcting the incentive structure is a half-ass practice. It is how you end up with constant threads on the subject and people just pushing the line as far as they can instead of playing the game as intended.

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Old 12-02-2019, 01:32 PM   #40
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Making more and more rules and banning people instead of fixing the underlying problem by correcting the incentive structure is a half-ass practice. It is how you end up with constant threads on the subject and people just pushing the line as far as they can instead of playing the game as intended.
Sorry, but ignoring people cheating isn't how you get a game where people are all trying to play the right way. Cheaters will cheat, as long as they think they can get away with it. They will find whatever they can to exploit to get the easiest, least work way of doing things they can. If you deincentivize tanking, they will look to exploit something else, then when you stop that they will do something else.

Punishing people for breaking rules isn't some alien, ridiculous concept, it's pretty much how every single game and every single aspect of life works.
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