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Perfect Team Perfect Team 2.0 - The online revolution continues! Battle thousands of PT managers from all over the world and become a legend. |
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12-01-2019, 11:10 PM | #21 | |
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Quote:
I repeat, the problem that is so prevalent is players adjusting their Active Roster to their advantage to relegate themselves and feed off the weaker teams once they are there. I really don't care HOW the Devs fix that problem, but I think it is critical to the game that they DO fix it. In whatever process they choose to do so, some players will get hurt because they use the game in a way that wasn't imagined. That is going to to be the price for ending what I consider to be a major flaw in the current game. As it stands now, me (and I'm sure a large number of others) simply aren't going to pay hard cash for something where we can easily be cheated against. It's simply not logical. |
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12-02-2019, 12:09 AM | #22 |
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the fact you want to sandbag low levels while having perfect players available shows how screwed up the system is
this is the only game I'm familiar with where people dont want to win because it slows their progress with collections making the auction house miserable on top of that Im definitely taking a wait and see approach next year Last edited by dkgo; 12-02-2019 at 12:10 AM. |
12-02-2019, 12:49 AM | #23 |
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The solution isn't hard. For example, take players that were relegated in 2 consecutive weeks. That is very unlikely to be anything but tanking, since the relegation talent gap tends to be pretty large. Or, to prevent the iron->bronze->iron thing, check to see if a team was promoted and relegated, say, 4 times in a 4-week cycle at a lower level, maybe with another check on their record or PP generation amounts. And, crucially, don't tell your playerbase about any of these measures so they can't game the system. Just send the warnings, and if they don't comply then issue bans. Maybe starting with a week ban and escalating from there. It's that simple.
EDIT: OR, the simplest of them all: Just check to see who is generating the most PP in a given week from, say, gold and below. If any of those teams have ever been at Perfect, they are almost certainly tanking. There are a hundred pretty easy solutions to this, it's really just a matter of which ends up being easiest to implement given available data.
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Former leader of BFF, the definitive competitive PT group for F2P players. DM for info F2P + restrictions. First F2P winner of PT21 Perfect League F2P + restrictions. New team -> PT title in 8 weeks Last edited by QuantaCondor; 12-02-2019 at 12:51 AM. |
12-02-2019, 01:34 AM | #24 |
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All of that is ridiculous and are band-aids over the real problem which won't go away, it will just be a game of seeing how far you can push the system. What needs to happen is to make the game so players want to do what the game wants them to do. Align incentives.
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12-02-2019, 02:02 AM | #25 |
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A tanking team can probably earn like 50k minimum via achievements. A noncompetitive team (i.e. not making the playoffs, but not being relegated) maybe earns 5k in achievements each week. A competitive team maybe earns between 10k and 20k PP at a given level. What solution would you propose that would fix tanking such that earning 50k per week at a lower level isn't something people would want to do?
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12-02-2019, 02:20 AM | #26 |
Minors (Double A)
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Another sports game I've seen has a rule that you're ineligible for tournaments if you don't get promoted. They have unlimited levels and 50% promotion per season so it's a bit different but you could start here with being ineligible for tournaments the next season if you get demoted. There's numerous other fixes and nothing will be perfect but you can start making it harder for the tankers with little things like that. Of course that game has greater rewards the higher the level. It also has certain features that aren't available until you reach a certain level to help encourage promotion.
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12-02-2019, 02:40 AM | #27 |
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Earning points is something that all people will always want to do. The way to fix it is to change how points are awarded so that tanking does not earn more points. There are numerous ways this could be accomplished.
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12-02-2019, 03:08 AM | #28 | |
Minors (Double A)
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Quote:
I didn't see any tankers in my league, all but 1 of the teams promoted were first year teams. The one that wasn;t a first year team has 35 yrs of history and 80% of those are losing years, so not a Tanker team Pine Tar
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12-02-2019, 03:37 AM | #29 | ||
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EDIT: In particular, what is one of these solutions that doesn't interfere with normal gameplay? You want dealing with tankers to be as noninvasive as possible, since you can really easily just distinguish who the tankers are using a separate check that doesn't involve modifying gameplay. So, in particular, I am curious to hear suggested solutions that don't interfere with e.g. someone who wants to try to get a bunch of rocket games by running staff with a ton of Stuff, or who wants to try to repeatedly get those In Control awards, or someone who wants to try to hit as many HR as possible, etc. Something totally not affecting the regular course of gameplay. Quote:
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Former leader of BFF, the definitive competitive PT group for F2P players. DM for info F2P + restrictions. First F2P winner of PT21 Perfect League F2P + restrictions. New team -> PT title in 8 weeks Last edited by QuantaCondor; 12-02-2019 at 03:41 AM. |
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12-02-2019, 04:25 AM | #30 | |
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The problem is that achievements are based on inconsistent logic. Achievements reward good play, and by extension the good players who make those good plays. However, achievements reward the same amount in lower leagues in order to avoid the trap of "the rich get richer," even though this is precisely what achievements reward already by their intrinsic nature. This inconsistency has proven to be exploitable.
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"And, Masters, do not forget to specify, when time and place shall serve, that I am an [censored]." (Much Ado About Nothing 5.1.255-256) Primary Team Collection Rewards (Cards & Packs) F2P Theme Team Movers F2P Theme and Adam Schlesinger Memorial Team Last edited by Dogberry99; 12-02-2019 at 04:26 AM. |
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12-02-2019, 05:18 AM | #31 | |
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Consider the fraction of used PP that come from achievements at different levels. I'd argue that probably 95% of spent PP comes from achievements at iron, and maybe 5-10% of spent PP comes from achievements at Perfect. If you start awarding more PP to players at higher levels, it has the equivalent economic effect of removing PP from players at the bottom since prices would rise comparatively. This gets especially egregious if you tie it to achievements, since the vast majority of the PP gains will go straight to whale teams in Perfect, and you'll end up seeing more tanking down to Diamond to be able to get that doubly-effective achievement PP. It's a good idea in spirit, but solutions like this don't occur in a vacuum. The only solution I would consider supporting is some kind of static PP award (Something like "Good luck on your upcoming season, here's 1k/2k/3k/4k/5k/6k PP to spend on your team for teams in Iron/Bronze/Silver/Gold/Diamond/Perfect"). Maybe adjusting achievement totals downward to account for the new PP influx so the amount of awarded PP stays the same. Only problem there is that the whole 50k-in-iron PP generation strategy will always be better than something flat like this, but at least there's a real difference between Perfect and Iron under that system. The main point is that as long as PP generation is tied to achievement generation, without some massive, economy-warping multiplier on each level, tanking will be a good PP generating strategy. And there is no need to design such a destructive solution when you can very easily just do a few simple checks on your data to find the culprits. If you want to talk about full redesigns of the game economy, that's okay, but it shouldn't be done purely to stop tanking. Tanking should have virtually no role in that discussion.
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12-02-2019, 05:39 AM | #32 |
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It's kind of perfect that there are a few tankers. If there were none, it would be because there was no reason to use strategy in some cases to not win.
Just saying if there was no reason to lose in some cases, it'd cross the line into gambling. Follow?
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12-02-2019, 08:54 AM | #33 | |
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Every team is assigned to a tier at the start of the week based on the overall rating of their active roster (same logic as cap tournaments). During the week the overall value of your roster cannot go higher or lower than a specified number. Better rewards at higher tiers. Tanking no longer exists. Last edited by dkgo; 12-02-2019 at 08:55 AM. |
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12-02-2019, 10:25 AM | #34 |
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Payoff PP for wins. N per win in iron, nx2 in bronze, nx3 in silver, nx4 gold, 5 diamond 6 perfect.
Payoff for post-season wins, scaling appropriately. Payoff for promotion. To balance the payouts, certain current achieves need to be dropped (Finals! for example, you're already rewarding winning.) Other existing achieves left alone, so the "little guys" see some progress even if their teams are struggling. Make Perfect the place to be for predictable income. Last edited by Lemandria; 12-02-2019 at 10:26 AM. |
12-02-2019, 11:30 AM | #35 |
Minors (Double A)
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 110
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All these solutions seem pretty over-elaborate and like they'd have significant knock on effects (mainly, making the game even harder for the little guys at the bottom and even easier for the already rich at the top). In reality, all they need to do is come up with a better and more robust system for spotting and then punishing tankers, given that it is already against the rules.
It can't be that hard to come up with an automated system that flags teams that do specific things (get relegated repeatedly, play irons in the DL, play non-catchers at catch in playoff games, have SP only face one batter in playoffs, etc etc) and then have someone have a quick look at the flagged teams behaviour to see if something is off. If people knew tanking would result in bans/suspensions/team resets, the amount of people willing to try it would massively reduce as the risk wouldn't be worth the reward. Simple as that tbh |
12-02-2019, 11:48 AM | #36 |
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No. Pull out the weed from the root instead of cutting the top off. All that your ideas do is make it so people play bronzes instead of irons or pitch for 2 innings instead of 1 or sandbag in slightly less obvious ways. There is still a line in the sand and a new thread every week arguing about it. You have to fix WHY people are playing the game that way, not just tell them "Yeah the game encourages you to do that but don't do it that much"
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12-02-2019, 12:51 PM | #37 | |
Minors (Double A)
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 110
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Quote:
If instead of punishing the people who break the rules, you instead just punish everyone playing at the lower levels by lowering the rewards, that's incredibly unfair on the vast majority who play the game fairly and a pretty terrible way of encouraging new players. You don't have to fix why people are breaking the rules, you just have to deter them from doing so. The people who cheat will always try and cheat if they think they can get away with it. |
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12-02-2019, 01:09 PM | #38 |
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You do if you want to have a better game.
Is there one other video game out there that has to make it against the rules to lose because doing so is better for you? |
12-02-2019, 01:09 PM | #39 |
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Making more and more rules and banning people instead of fixing the underlying problem by correcting the incentive structure is a half-ass practice. It is how you end up with constant threads on the subject and people just pushing the line as far as they can instead of playing the game as intended.
Last edited by dkgo; 12-02-2019 at 01:13 PM. |
12-02-2019, 01:32 PM | #40 | |
Minors (Double A)
Join Date: Oct 2019
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Quote:
Punishing people for breaking rules isn't some alien, ridiculous concept, it's pretty much how every single game and every single aspect of life works. |
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